PipeChat Digest #2970 - Tuesday, July 16, 2002
 
Re: Trying to get multiple organists/directors accepted in music budget
  by <l2nn@juno.com>
Re: Coil Resistance
  by <OrganMD@aol.com>
Re: Trying to get multiple organists/directors accepted in musicbudget
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: Coil Resistance
  by "Bob K." <rkinner@one.net>
Re: Wedding music I don't have
  by "Ed Steltzer" <steltzer@gwi.net>
Re: Wedding music I don't have
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@VASSAR.EDU>
Re: Coil Resistance
  by "Paul Soulek" <soulek@frontiernet.net>
RE: Wedding music I don't have
  by "Harry Martenas" <hmartena@columbiapa.org>
Re: Trying to get multiple organists/directors accepted in music	budget
  by "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca>
Re: R. Shchedrin - and Freight Train Music
  by "David Carter" <david_n_carter@hotmail.com>
Re: Trying to get multiple organists/directors accepted in music budget
  by <Pologaptommy@aol.com>
Re: Wedding music I don't have
  by <DarrylbytheSea@aol.com>
Felix Hell Concert
  by "Marika E. Buchberger, LRPS" <marika57@earthlink.net>
Re: Felix Hell Concert
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
Re: Traditional wedding marches
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Trying to get multiple organists/directors accepted in music budget From: <l2nn@juno.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 02:31:33 -0700   This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not = understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.   ----__JNP_000_73e0.6df2.72b3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I am in a conundrum at a Episcopal church in a well-to-do city in a busy metropolis. Church holds 250 to 300; they have 2 services: 8 & 10. I have worked there as a choral accompanist for the past year under the director of music/organist. The director retained his organist position just so he could make enough money because of the way the church had budgeted equal money for director as for organist position (in the mid teens for each position). When he, formerly as the organist/accompanist, was offered music director last year when the former music director (only a soprano) left, he accepted it without giving up his organist role; he only gave up his accompanist role. The director has a Master degree in music. He is a composer who richly gives of his talents to the church for the last 8 years and he is a wonderful improviser. He also puts on musicals and operettas to engage the youth and choir members and as fundraisers. He also conducts a handbell choir, adult choir (18) with 4 paid professionals, and a smaller adult choir (10), and a children's choir (10). For all this plus being the organist, he makes $32K.   I would like to stay working in this church I like under a gifted musician, but I want and need to be the organist/accompanist, not just the accompanist position. The director tells me the rector and other decision makers do not think the church now needs 2 professional musicians paid well; they currently think it's a one-person choir director/organist job with a minor accompanist role. (Formerly, it was a part time organist/accompanist and a part time choir director, both paid equally. I think he screwed himself by accepting the director position when he was the organist and remained the organist.) I told him that he should be getting at least his salary for just being the director! And as organist/accompanist, my salary should grow from $4000 to $13K to 16K! If my salary does not grow in this way here, I will have to leave and find an organist position elsewhere. In my spare Sundays and summers, I am always kept busy substituting and doing weddings/funerals elsewhere. I need a 1/4 to 1/2 time organist position just to develop as an organist! (I've been playing 2 years and just passed an AGO exam.) One Lutheran church who has lost 25% membership is wooing me but I would prefer to continue working with the gifted director of music at the Episcopal church. The director is also my organ teacher and has me singing in a professional choir on Sundays and other days of the week at other churches. I enjoy singing very much which is new to me. A different organist job would limit my ability to perform with this unattached professional choir.   Help! How do we revamp the job positions in the music dept. at the Episcopal church? The director said that no matter how many AGO salary charts we showed the decision makers, it would not sway their mindset that their church only requires basically 1 musician, ie ever since he assumed the director role while remaining the organist. If he gave me the organist role, he would lose about half his salary and we would be equally paid which does not seem correct.   Only one of the 2 services has music. The early service has no music. There is talk of canvassing that elderly congregation to see if I could play organ for that service and so get paid more and get more experience. There is also talk of a small choir at the early service. This has a 50/50 chance of happening depending on the congregation.   I am not only the accompanist currently. I also help out the director in many ways: music librarian, publicity for events, choir database assistant, choir emailer. The director has said he won't be able to find anyone who plays as well as I do to work for such a low salary. He is not happy I might be leaving. Everyone has acclimated to him and me and how we work together; he is building the music program; my role has helped him stay with the choir and really help them improve. Meanwhile the decisionmakers may drag their feet or not come to any decision yet and I feel I have to jump at a better job before the Fall starts since jumping in or out of church jobs during the Sept to June year can ruin not only chances for getting a job while churches are advertising but also your reputation, so I hear.   The rector is near retirement...   I appreciate any feedback anyone has.   Lynn ----__JNP_000_73e0.6df2.72b3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; = charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.50.4725.2100" name=3D3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY bottomMargin=3D3D0 leftMargin=3D3D3 topMargin=3D3D0 = rightMargin=3D3D3> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>I am in a conundrum at a Episcopal church in a well-to-do city in a = =3D busy=3D20 metropolis. Church holds&nbsp;250 to 300; they have 2 services: 8 = &amp;=3D20 10.&nbsp; I have worked there as a choral accompanist for the past year = =3D under=3D20 the director of music/organist.&nbsp; The director retained his = organist=3D20 position just so he could make enough money&nbsp;because of&nbsp;the way = =3D the=3D20 church had budgeted equal money for director as for organist position (in = =3D the=3D20 mid teens for each position).&nbsp;When he, formerly as the=3D20 organist/accompanist,&nbsp;was offered music director last year when the = =3D former=3D20 music director (only a soprano) left, he accepted it without giving up = his=3D =3D20 organist role; he only gave up his accompanist role.&nbsp; The director = has=3D a=3D20 Master degree in music. He is a composer who richly gives of his talents = to=3D the=3D20 church for the last 8 years and he is a wonderful improviser.&nbsp; He = also=3D puts=3D20 on musicals and operettas to engage the youth and choir members and = as=3D20 fundraisers.&nbsp; He also conducts a handbell choir, adult choir (18) = with=3D 4=3D20 paid professionals, and a smaller adult choir (10), and a children's = choir=3D =3D20 (10).&nbsp; For all this plus being the organist, he makes $32K.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>I would like to stay working in this church I like under a gifted =3D musician,=3D20 but I want and need&nbsp;to be the organist/accompanist, not just the=3D20 accompanist position.&nbsp; The director tells me the rector and other =3D decision=3D20 makers do not think the church now needs 2 professional musicians paid = well=3D ;=3D20 they currently think it's a one-person&nbsp;choir director/organist=3D20 job&nbsp;with a minor accompanist role.&nbsp; (Formerly, it was a part = time=3D =3D20 organist/accompanist <U>and</U> a part time choir director, both paid =3D equally. I=3D20 think he screwed himself by accepting the director position when he was = the=3D =3D20 organist and remained the organist.)&nbsp; I told him that he should be = =3D getting=3D20 at least his salary for just being the director! And as organist/=3D accompanist, my=3D20 salary should grow from $4000 to $13K to 16K!&nbsp; If my salary does not = =3D grow=3D20 in this way here, I will have to leave and find an organist position=3D20 elsewhere.&nbsp; In my spare Sundays and summers, I am always kept = busy=3D20 substituting and doing weddings/funerals elsewhere.&nbsp; I need a 1/4 to = 1=3D /2=3D20 time organist position just to develop as an organist! (I've been playing = 2=3D =3D20 years and just passed an AGO exam.) One Lutheran church who has lost = 25%=3D20 membership is wooing me but I would prefer to continue working with the = =3D gifted=3D20 director of music at the Episcopal church.&nbsp; The director is also my = =3D organ=3D20 teacher and has me singing in a professional choir on Sundays and other = =3D days of=3D20 the week at other churches.&nbsp; I enjoy&nbsp;singing&nbsp;very much = which=3D is=3D20 new to me.&nbsp; A different organist job would limit my ability to perform=3D with=3D20 this unattached professional choir.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Help! How do we revamp the job positions in the music dept. at = the=3D20 Episcopal church? The director said that no matter how many AGO salary =3D charts we=3D20 showed the decision makers, it would not sway their mindset that their =3D church=3D20 only requires basically 1 musician, ie ever since he assumed the director = =3D role=3D20 while remaining the organist.&nbsp; If he gave me the organist role, he = =3D would=3D20 lose about half his salary and we would be equally paid which does not = seem=3D =3D20 correct.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Only one of the 2 services has music.&nbsp; The early service has = no=3D20 music.&nbsp; There is talk of canvassing that elderly congregation to see = =3D if I=3D20 could play organ for that service and so get paid more and get more=3D20 experience.&nbsp; There is also talk of a small choir at the early=3D20 service.&nbsp; This has a 50/50 chance of happening depending on the=3D20 congregation.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>I am not only the accompanist currently.&nbsp; I also help out the = =3D director=3D20 in many ways: music librarian, publicity for events, choir database =3D assistant,=3D20 choir emailer.&nbsp;The director has said he won't be able to find anyone = =3D who=3D20 plays as well as I do to work for such a low salary.&nbsp; He is not happy = =3D I=3D20 might be leaving.&nbsp; Everyone has acclimated to him and me and how we = =3D work=3D20 together; he is building the music program; my role has helped him stay = =3D with the=3D20 choir and really help them improve.&nbsp; Meanwhile&nbsp;the = decisionmakers=3D may=3D20 drag their feet or not come to any decision yet and I feel I have to jump = =3D at a=3D20 better job before the Fall starts since jumping in&nbsp;or out of church = =3D jobs=3D20 during the Sept to June year can ruin not only chances for getting a job = =3D while=3D20 churches are advertising but also your reputation, so I hear.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>The rector is near retirement...</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>I appreciate any feedback anyone has.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Lynn</DIV></BODY></HTML>   ----__JNP_000_73e0.6df2.72b3--    
(back) Subject: Re: Coil Resistance From: <OrganMD@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 06:51:45 EDT     --part1_de.2a0c77bc.2a6554c1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Hi.......   A missing piece of information is, what pressure are the magnets going to = be working under?   Bill   --part1_de.2a0c77bc.2a6554c1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi....... <BR> <BR>A missing piece of information is, what pressure are the magnets going = to be working under? <BR> <BR>Bill</FONT></HTML>   --part1_de.2a0c77bc.2a6554c1_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Trying to get multiple organists/directors accepted in musicbudget From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 06:02:02 -0500       Lynn wrote, in part:   > I am in a conundrum,=85   and followed it with a lengthy description. Sounds to me like decision time has arrived. Were I in your position, I would schedule an appointment with the O/CM, and have a conversation along the lines of "I really enjoy working with you, and singing with the outside chorale, and I value your experience and assistance, but I'm getting pinched financially, and I can't afford to stay here too much longer at the level of compensation offered. If your hear of a place looking for someone, perhaps you would recommend me."   Overall, based upon your post, it sounds to me like it's time for you to plan to move on.   ns    
(back) Subject: Re: Coil Resistance From: "Bob K." <rkinner@one.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:38:13 -0400   Paul,   You not only need to know wind pressure, but also valve diameter and voltage. OSI prints selection graphs in the back of their catalog. = Unless you are running very low pressure, I can only guess that for the low = octave of an 8' Stopped Diapson you'll need less than 90 ohms, probably 60 or = even 40.   Bob   Paul Soulek wrote:   > I am going to be building a chest for the lowest 15 notes of an 8' > Stopped Diapason (stopped wooden flute). My direct-electric magnets have > 125 ohm resistance---will this be enough, or do I need 90 ohm magnets > for the lowest pipes? > > Thanks! > Paul      
(back) Subject: Re: Wedding music I don't have From: "Ed Steltzer" <steltzer@gwi.net> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:35:46 -0400   Bud's reply reminded me that one or two other friends on this list recommended "THE ORGAN IN CHURCH" also. When I ordered it, my = supplier said "Out of print".   Does anyone have a copy in reasonable condition, for sale?   Thanks much! Ed, in Maine   ----- Original Message ----- From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 6:50 PM Subject: Re: Wedding music I don't have     ......snip, snip, snip.......   > THE ORGAN IN CHURCH, ed. Frank Asper ... there's a chord or a measure > missing between .......   > Cheers, Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: Wedding music I don't have From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@VASSAR.EDU> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:46:03 -0700   > >1. Sheep May Safely Graze (I have a cheesy, simplified version, no >soloing of C.F.) Anybody know of a better version? Is it buried in >some anthology I already have but isn't categorized "Wedding"? Virgil Fox has a book of his arrangements including that one. Schmaltzy? yes a bit, but cheesy, hell no!   John V (Virgil Fan)    
(back) Subject: Re: Coil Resistance From: "Paul Soulek" <soulek@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:45:45 -0500   The pressure will be running about 2 3/4 ". I will test the rest of the magnets when I get back from vacation...Thursday or Friday.   Thank you! Paul   OrganMD@aol.com wrote: > > Hi....... > > A missing piece of information is, what pressure are the magnets > going > to be working under? > > Bill  
(back) Subject: RE: Wedding music I don't have From: "Harry Martenas" <hmartena@columbiapa.org> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:23:49 -0400   > >1. Sheep May Safely Graze (I have a cheesy, simplified version, no > >soloing of C.F.) Anybody know of a better version?   Check out The Oxford Book of Wedding Music http://www.oup.co.uk/isbn/0-19-375119-4. Wouldn't play a wedding without it!   It's also available from OHS http://www.ohscatalog.org/coloranofshe.html - it's about 1/2 way down the listing. (You want the 2nd one listed - the first is for manuals only. Or perhaps you would have use for that too.)   /Harry Martenas      
(back) Subject: Re: Trying to get multiple organists/directors accepted in music budget From: "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:12:36 -0500   On 7/16/02 4:31 AM, l2nn@juno.com wrote:   > I am in a conundrum at a Episcopal church in a well-to-do city in a busy > metropolis. Church holds 250 to 300; they have 2 services: 8 & 10.(snip) = He > also conducts a handbell choir, adult choir (18) with 4 > paid professionals, and a smaller adult choir (10), and a children's > choir (10). For all this plus being the organist, he makes $32K. > (snip) the rector and other > decision makers do not think the church now needs 2 professional > musicians paid well; they currently think it's a one-person choir > director/organist job with a minor accompanist role.   This doesn't seem at all unreasonable given the size of the church, size = of the choir, etc. You don't lay out a strong case for the church needing an extra musician so much as a case for you needing more experience and more money. I would think that with this line of reasoning you're unlikely to convince the church to change their ways. Every assistant must sooner or later face the challenge of finding an independent position elsewhere. It may well be time for you to consider that.   Good luck, Russ Greene St. Andrew's Anglican Church (Woodhaven) Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada    
(back) Subject: Re: R. Shchedrin - and Freight Train Music From: "David Carter" <david_n_carter@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:18:45 +0000   Dear Glenda - I have never heard the term 'Freight Train Music' - could you shed some light on this term?   Thanks! David Carter - in MUCH cooler Sacramento.         _________________________________________________________________ Join the world=92s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Trying to get multiple organists/directors accepted in music budget From: <Pologaptommy@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:21:45 EDT   Lynn, I read your email through several times, and there are a lot of questions that I have, but I will just ask a few. It seems to me like your church really needs to reorganize the positions = and titles. Along with a little bit of re-budgeting! Right now, from what you explained it seems like the church is going = through a transition, and it sounds extremely unorganized. What exactly is your position, and what do you accompany as far as service music is concerned? Is the director of music full time, or part time? As far as playing for only one service, and with as little choirs as you have, the salaries do not seem unrealistic. However, if you DO start providing music for the first service, then those salaries are = unreasonable for both you and the choir director. I know how stressful playing for two =   morning services can be in my church, ESPECIALLY if you have multiple = adult choirs. I DO think that when you do start providing music for both services that = the issue of budgeting more money for salaries should be very seriously considered. You also say the current choir director is upset that you = might be leaving. Does he not have any pull on what your salary is? Do you = work directly under him, or under someone else?   In my church there is no question about what one's roles are, and that = really helps cut down on confusion when service playing is concerned.   Thanks Josh White   Organist First United Methodist Church, Graham TX www.fumcgraham.org; FUMC organ pics: www.geocities.com/polo_gap_tommie  
(back) Subject: Re: Wedding music I don't have From: <DarrylbytheSea@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:31:44 EDT     --part1_31.29ed405a.2a65dcb0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Hi, Y'all!   I have small hands and thus, the Biggs arrangement of "Sheep" stretches = too much in the R.H. I use the Harvey Grace arrangement published by Oxford. I =   have no idea if it's p.o.p. or not, but it's the best for me, I've found.   Incidentally, on my program last Sunday, I played the Durufle setting of "Jesus, Joy." It's the best I've found and uses a full realization of the c.f. under the counterpoint. It's published by Bornemann.   Yours, from the Rochester POE,   Darryl by the Sea   --part1_31.29ed405a.2a65dcb0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi, Y'all! <BR> <BR>I have small hands and thus, the Biggs arrangement of "Sheep" = stretches too much in the R.H. I use the Harvey Grace arrangement = published by Oxford. I have no idea if it's p.o.p. or not, but it's the = best for me, I've found. <BR> <BR>Incidentally, on my program last Sunday, I played the Durufle setting = of "Jesus, Joy." It's the best I've found and uses a full realization of = the c.f. under the counterpoint. It's published by Bornemann. <BR> <BR>Yours, from the Rochester POE, <BR> <BR>Darryl by the Sea</FONT></HTML>   --part1_31.29ed405a.2a65dcb0_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Felix Hell Concert From: "Marika E. Buchberger, LRPS" <marika57@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:02:12 -0400   St. Philip the Apostle Roman Catholic Church 488 Saddle River Road Saddle Brook, New Jersey (201) 843-1888 Monday, July 22 @ 8:00 PM   The Felix Hell website lists the concert time as 4:00 PM which is incorrect. I contacted the parish and they faxed the concert flyer to me which shows 8:00 PM.   See you all there!!!   marika   -- ***************************************************** Healthcare references for everyone. "Recipient of the year 2000 Featured Site Award at healthAtoZ.com" http://home.earthlink.net/~marika57/m_erika.html   Internet Safety Lessons. Must reading for everyone. http://home.earthlink.net/~marika57/safetylessons.html *****************************************************      
(back) Subject: Re: Felix Hell Concert From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:27:09 -0400   The time is also correct in the TAO Calendar.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marika E. Buchberger, LRPS" <marika57@earthlink.net> To: "Pipechat listserver" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 6:02 PM Subject: Felix Hell Concert     > St. Philip the Apostle Roman Catholic Church > 488 Saddle River Road > Saddle Brook, New Jersey > (201) 843-1888 > Monday, July 22 @ 8:00 PM > > The Felix Hell website lists the concert time as 4:00 PM which is > incorrect. I contacted the parish and they faxed the concert flyer to > me which shows 8:00 PM. > > See you all there!!! > > marika > > -- > ***************************************************** > Healthcare references for everyone. > "Recipient of the year 2000 Featured Site Award at healthAtoZ.com" > http://home.earthlink.net/~marika57/m_erika.html > > Internet Safety Lessons. Must reading for everyone. > http://home.earthlink.net/~marika57/safetylessons.html > ***************************************************** > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >      
(back) Subject: Re: Traditional wedding marches From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:47:03 EDT     --part1_36.2a7caf67.2a65fc67_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 7/16/02 2:28:38 AM Atlantic Daylight Time, reedstop@prodigy.net writes: > Yes, I am, why?   I just wondered if you had been through a wedding "first hand." It all depends upon the mindset of the bride.   Bruce in the Muttestery   with the Baskerbeagles at <A = HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/brucon502">HowlingAcres</A> = http://members.tripod.com/brucon502 .... need extra money??? visit http://www.visionsuccess.com/BC2053 enjoy shopping?? visit www.freestoreclub.com/go/BDawg   --part1_36.2a7caf67.2a65fc67_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 7/16/02 2:28:38 AM Atlantic = Daylight Time, reedstop@prodigy.net writes: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Yes, I am, why? = </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> I just wondered if you had been through a wedding "first hand."<BR> It all depends upon the mindset of the bride.<BR> <BR> Bruce in the Muttestery <BR> <BR> with the Baskerbeagles at&nbsp; <A = HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/brucon502">HowlingAcres</A>&nbsp;&nbsp; = http://members.tripod.com/brucon502<BR> ....&nbsp; need extra money???&nbsp;&nbsp; visit&nbsp;&nbsp; = http://www.visionsuccess.com/BC2053<BR> enjoy shopping??&nbsp;&nbsp; visit&nbsp; www.freestoreclub.com/go/BDawg = <BR> </FONT></HTML> --part1_36.2a7caf67.2a65fc67_boundary--