PipeChat Digest #2905 - Thursday, June 13, 2002
 
Re: The Essentials of a Small Organ
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: The Essentials of a Small Organ -  one persons's opinion
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Philly convention
  by <MFoxy9795@aol.com>
Essentials of a small organ
  by <support@opensystemsorgans.com>
Essential small organ
  by "lab" <labeaty@panix.com>
Re: Philly convention
  by <DudelK@aol.com>
Re: With One Voice clarification
  by <REEDSTOP@prodigy.net>
Re: Gary Deboer
  by <cdkrug@worldnet.att.net>
Re: With One Voice clarification
  by <REEDSTOP@prodigy.net>
Conventions [WAS:Re: Philly convention]
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
essential small organ
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: With One Voice clarification
  by <REEDSTOP@prodigy.net>
15rk instruments
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: WOV, LBW, and Luth. Liturgical Music as a Whole
  by <REEDSTOP@prodigy.net>
Re: Lutheran Liturgies, etc.
  by <REEDSTOP@prodigy.net>
Re: The Essentials of a Small Organ
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Re: Cavaille-Coll
  by "Jim Hailey" <jhaileya10@charter.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: The Essentials of a Small Organ From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:48:22 EDT     --part1_170.f0b599c.2a3a9756_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 6/13/02 12:24:34 PM Atlantic Daylight Time, = Oboe32@aol.com writes: > I wonder what is essential to smaller organs. With my > church approaching the time for a new organ, and with other churches = doing > such, I'm curious as to what you all think. I know much depends upon the =   > room, so lets set the mood: > > 500 Seat Church > Acoustic of about 1 to 2 seconds > Space for about 12 to 14 ranks. > 15 voice choir   My feeling is that what is critical to a successful organ is a Principal chorus. A very interesting unit organ that I have played and which is still extant was built by Wicks in 1958. It is 16 ranks distributed as follows: Great: Principal, Octave, Twelfth, Fifteenth Harmonic Flute 8 4 from Choir Gemshorn 8 4 from Choir Choir: Harmonic Flute 8 4 Gemshorn 8 4 Viola 8 Dolcan 8 4 2-2/3 2 1-3/5 Dolcan Celeste 8 tc Swell: Geigen Principal 8 Gedeckt 16 8 4 Gamba 8 4 Celeste 8 tc Nazard 2-2/3 2 Trumpet 8 4 Pedal: Open Diapason 16 8 5-1/3 12 pipes ext of gt 8 Bourdon 16 Lieblich Gedeckt 16 8 12 pipes sw extension of Ged 8 Bass Flute 8 Choir Harmonic Flute 8 Cello 8 Swell Gamba 8 Trombone 16 12 pipes, extension of Sw Trumpet   This organ is very versatile. While I was there the three stopes cut and =   used as follows: gamba celeste became 4' Principal in Sw; Nazard 2-2/3 = to become tc Spitzflute in Choir in Dolcan Celeste place; Dolcan Celeste became 2-2/3 and 2' flute in Sw. These changes greatly improved the = chorus in each division.   My recommendation for an organ of 15 ranks in a 500 seat church would be: (first choice) Great 1. Bourdon 16 2. Principal 8 3. Spitzflute 8 4. Octave 4 5. Twelfth 2-2/3 6. Fifteenth 2 7. Trumpet 8   Swell 8. Principal 8 9. Rohrflote 8 10. Salicional 8 00. Celeste 8 prep 00. Octave 4 prep 11. Harmonic Flute 4 12. Nazard 2-2/3 13. Blockflute 2 14. Tierce 1-3/5 15. Oboe 8   Pedal 15. Principal 16 00. Bourdon 16 from gr 00. Octave 8 prep 00. Choralbass 4 prep 00. Trombone 16 00. Trumpet 8 00. Krummhorn 4   the 00. stops are prepared for. I think it is important in a mechanical =   action organ to leave room for expansion.   In the event that you want to stretch using unification:   Great 00. Bourdon 16 (swell extension) 1. Principal 8 00. Harmonic Flute 8 (swell extension) 00. Salicional 8 2. Octave 4 00. Rohrflote 4 (swell extension) 3. Twelfth 2-2/3 4. Fifteenth 2 5. Trumpet 8   Swell 6. Principal 8 7. Rohrflote 8 8. Salicional 8 00. Celeste 8 prep 00. Octave 4 prep 9. Harmonic Flute 4 10. Nazard 2-2/3 11. Blockflute 2 12. Tierce 1-3/5 13. Oboe 8   Pedal 14. Principal 16 00. Bourdon 16 from sw 00. Octave 8 prep or temp extension 00. Bass Flute (sw Harmonic Flute) 00. Choralbass 4 prep or temp extension 15. Trombone 16 00. Trumpet 8 prep or temp extension 00. Krummhorn 4 prep   I recall playing a Schlicker unit organ in a building seating 600 with 4 seconds reverberation. Those 7 ranks were able to handle everything we =   threw at it! Principal 8 4 2, Rohrflote 8 4, Salicional 8 4, Gemshorn 4 2, Mixture III, =   Fagot 16 8 4 unified over two manuals. T'was exquisite.   Bruce in the Muttestery with the Baskerbeagles at <A = HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/brucon502">HowlingAcres</A> = http://members.tripod.com/brucon502 .... need extra money??? visit http://www.visionsuccess.com/BC2053 enjoy shopping?? visit www.freestoreclub.com/go/BDawg   --part1_170.f0b599c.2a3a9756_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 6/13/02 12:24:34 PM Atlantic = Daylight Time, Oboe32@aol.com writes: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I wonder what is = essential to smaller organs. With my <BR> church approaching the time for a new organ, and with other churches doing = <BR> such, I'm curious as to what you all think. I know much depends upon the = <BR> room, so lets set the mood:<BR> <BR> 500 Seat Church<BR> Acoustic of about 1 to 2 seconds<BR> Space for about 12 to 14 ranks.<BR> 15 voice choir</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> My feeling is that what is critical to a successful organ is a Principal = chorus.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A very interesting unit organ that I have played = and which is still extant was built by Wicks in 1958.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It = is 16 ranks distributed as follows:<BR> Great:&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR> Principal, Octave, Twelfth, Fifteenth<BR> Harmonic Flute 8 4&nbsp; from Choir<BR> Gemshorn 8&nbsp; 4&nbsp; from Choir<BR> Choir:<BR> Harmonic Flute&nbsp; 8 4 <BR> Gemshorn 8 4 <BR> Viola 8<BR> Dolcan&nbsp; 8&nbsp; 4&nbsp; 2-2/3&nbsp; 2&nbsp; 1-3/5<BR> Dolcan Celeste&nbsp; 8&nbsp; tc<BR> Swell:&nbsp; <BR> Geigen Principal 8 <BR> Gedeckt&nbsp; 16 8 4<BR> Gamba 8 4<BR> Celeste 8&nbsp; tc <BR> Nazard&nbsp; 2-2/3&nbsp; 2<BR> Trumpet&nbsp; 8 4<BR> Pedal:<BR> Open Diapason 16&nbsp; 8&nbsp; 5-1/3&nbsp; 12 pipes&nbsp; ext of gt 8<BR> Bourdon 16 <BR> Lieblich Gedeckt 16&nbsp; 8&nbsp; 12 pipes sw&nbsp; extension of Ged 8<BR> Bass Flute 8&nbsp;&nbsp; Choir Harmonic Flute 8<BR> Cello 8&nbsp;&nbsp; Swell Gamba 8 <BR> Trombone 16&nbsp;&nbsp; 12 pipes,&nbsp; extension of Sw Trumpet<BR> <BR> This organ is very versatile.&nbsp;&nbsp; While I was there the three = stopes cut and used as follows:&nbsp;&nbsp; gamba celeste became 4' = Principal in Sw;&nbsp; Nazard 2-2/3 to become tc Spitzflute in Choir in = Dolcan Celeste place;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dolcan Celeste became 2-2/3 and 2' flute = in Sw.&nbsp;&nbsp; These changes greatly improved the chorus in each = division.<BR> <BR> My recommendation for an organ of 15 ranks in a 500 seat church would = be:<BR> (first choice)<BR> Great<BR> &nbsp; 1.&nbsp; Bourdon 16 <BR> &nbsp; 2.&nbsp; Principal 8 <BR> &nbsp; 3.&nbsp; Spitzflute 8 <BR> &nbsp; 4.&nbsp; Octave 4 <BR> &nbsp; 5.&nbsp; Twelfth&nbsp; 2-2/3<BR> &nbsp; 6.&nbsp; Fifteenth 2<BR> &nbsp; 7.&nbsp; Trumpet 8<BR> <BR> Swell<BR> &nbsp; 8.&nbsp; Principal 8<BR> &nbsp; 9.&nbsp; Rohrflote 8 <BR> 10.&nbsp; Salicional 8 <BR> 00.&nbsp; Celeste 8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; prep<BR> 00.&nbsp; Octave 4&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; prep<BR> 11.&nbsp; Harmonic Flute 4 <BR> 12.&nbsp; Nazard 2-2/3<BR> 13.&nbsp; Blockflute 2<BR> 14.&nbsp; Tierce 1-3/5 <BR> 15.&nbsp; Oboe 8 <BR> <BR> Pedal<BR> 15.&nbsp; Principal 16<BR> 00.&nbsp; Bourdon 16&nbsp;&nbsp; from gr<BR> 00.&nbsp; Octave 8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; prep<BR> 00.&nbsp; Choralbass 4&nbsp;&nbsp; prep<BR> 00.&nbsp; Trombone 16 <BR> 00.&nbsp; Trumpet 8 <BR> 00.&nbsp;&nbsp; Krummhorn 4<BR> <BR> the 00.&nbsp; stops are prepared for.&nbsp;&nbsp; I think it is important = in a mechanical action organ to leave room for expansion.<BR> <BR> In the event that you want to stretch using unification:<BR> <BR> Great<BR> 00.&nbsp; Bourdon 16&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (swell extension)<BR> &nbsp; 1.&nbsp; Principal 8 <BR> 00.&nbsp; Harmonic Flute&nbsp; 8&nbsp;&nbsp; (swell extension) <BR> 00.&nbsp; Salicional 8<BR> &nbsp; 2.&nbsp; Octave 4 <BR> 00.&nbsp; Rohrflote 4&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (swell extension)&nbsp; <BR> &nbsp; 3.&nbsp; Twelfth&nbsp; 2-2/3<BR> &nbsp; 4.&nbsp; Fifteenth 2<BR> &nbsp; 5.&nbsp; Trumpet 8<BR> <BR> Swell<BR> &nbsp; 6.&nbsp; Principal 8<BR> &nbsp; 7.&nbsp; Rohrflote 8 <BR> &nbsp; 8.&nbsp; Salicional 8 <BR> 00.&nbsp; Celeste 8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; prep<BR> 00.&nbsp; Octave 4&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; prep<BR> &nbsp; 9.&nbsp; Harmonic Flute 4 <BR> 10.&nbsp; Nazard 2-2/3<BR> 11.&nbsp; Blockflute 2<BR> 12.&nbsp; Tierce 1-3/5 <BR> 13.&nbsp; Oboe 8 <BR> <BR> Pedal<BR> 14.&nbsp; Principal 16<BR> 00.&nbsp; Bourdon 16&nbsp;&nbsp; from sw<BR> 00.&nbsp; Octave 8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; prep&nbsp; or temp extension<BR> 00.&nbsp; Bass Flute&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (sw Harmonic Flute)<BR> 00.&nbsp; Choralbass 4&nbsp;&nbsp; prep&nbsp; or temp extension<BR> 15.&nbsp; Trombone 16 <BR> 00.&nbsp; Trumpet 8&nbsp;&nbsp; prep or temp extension <BR> 00.&nbsp;&nbsp; Krummhorn 4&nbsp;&nbsp; prep<BR> <BR> I recall playing a Schlicker unit organ in a building seating 600 with 4 = seconds reverberation.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Those 7 ranks were able to = handle everything we threw at it! <BR> Principal 8 4 2, Rohrflote 8 4, Salicional 8 4, Gemshorn 4 2, Mixture III, = Fagot 16 8 4 <BR> unified over two manuals.&nbsp; T'was exquisite.<BR> <BR> <BR> Bruce in the Muttestery <BR> with the Baskerbeagles at&nbsp; <A = HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/brucon502">HowlingAcres</A>&nbsp;&nbsp; = http://members.tripod.com/brucon502<BR> ....&nbsp; need extra money???&nbsp;&nbsp; visit&nbsp;&nbsp; = http://www.visionsuccess.com/BC2053<BR> enjoy shopping??&nbsp;&nbsp; visit&nbsp; www.freestoreclub.com/go/BDawg = <BR> </FONT></HTML> --part1_170.f0b599c.2a3a9756_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: The Essentials of a Small Organ - one persons's opinion From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:58:00 EDT     --part1_1bc.4992d48.2a3a9998_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 6/13/02 9:48:55 PM Atlantic Daylight Time, RMaryman@aol.com writes: > I prefer to have a smallish organ under total (but seperate) expression, =     I almost agree, but would leave the Principal 8 in the open.   Bruce in the Muttestery   with the Baskerbeagles at <A = HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/brucon502">HowlingAcres</A> = http://members.tripod.com/brucon502 .... need extra money??? visit http://www.visionsuccess.com/BC2053 enjoy shopping?? visit www.freestoreclub.com/go/BDawg   --part1_1bc.4992d48.2a3a9998_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 6/13/02 9:48:55 PM Atlantic = Daylight Time, RMaryman@aol.com writes: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I prefer to have a = smallish organ under total (but seperate) expression, </FONT><FONT = COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" = SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" = SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"arial" LANG=3D"0">I almost agree, = but would leave the Principal 8 in the open.<BR> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" = SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Bruce in the = Muttestery <BR> <BR> with the Baskerbeagles at&nbsp; <A = HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/brucon502">HowlingAcres</A>&nbsp;&nbsp; = http://members.tripod.com/brucon502<BR> ....&nbsp; need extra money???&nbsp;&nbsp; visit&nbsp;&nbsp; = http://www.visionsuccess.com/BC2053<BR> enjoy shopping??&nbsp;&nbsp; visit&nbsp; www.freestoreclub.com/go/BDawg = <BR> </FONT></HTML> --part1_1bc.4992d48.2a3a9998_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Philly convention From: <MFoxy9795@aol.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:22:33 -0400   How many of you will be at the convention? Shall we "meet at the eagle"??? Merry Foxworth  
(back) Subject: Essentials of a small organ From: <support@opensystemsorgans.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:27:32 -0400   Here's a slightly larger entry:   http://www.cbfisk.com/organs/op076_01.html   The Westminster faculty dragged Charlie down from Boston to revoice the = spire flute into a principal. He intended to replace the drawknob label with = one that read "Open Diapason", but never got around to it.   It's versatile enough to have been used for the complete works of Bach, = but you wouldn't want to try much nineteenth century music on it. Makes you = realize just how fundamental this question of small organs is, doesn't it?   The various points in this thread about the independence of the pedal = division in small organs brings up a question: Has anybody out there ever noticed = that the F major Toccata and the first third of the fugue require independent = pedal voices, but that the last third of the fugue doesn't? Do you still think = Bach used the same registration all the way through?   Dick Meckstroth  
(back) Subject: Essential small organ From: "lab" <labeaty@panix.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:36:46 -0400 (EDT)   Well, to join the crowd, here's mine.   Great 8 Principal 8 Holzgedeckt 4 Octave 2 2/3 Twelfth 2 Fifteenth II Mixture (19-22)   Swell 8 Rohrflute 8 Viola Pomposa 8 Viola Celeste TC 4 Nachthorn 2 Waldflute 8 Trompette   Pedal 16 Subbass 8 Octave 8 Gedeckt (ext. 16) 4 Choralbass (ext. 8) 16 Trompette (ext. Sw) 4 Trompette (ext. Sw)   15 ranks, 4 unifications     If I could dare to add an additional rank, would be an 8 solo reed in Gt.        
(back) Subject: Re: Philly convention From: <DudelK@aol.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:48:13 EDT   In a message dated 6/13/02 9:23:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MFoxy9795@aol.com writes:   << Shall we "meet at the eagle"??? >> Or maybe at a bar at the Marriott? We had quite a fine martini masterclass = at the NYC convention. After all, martinis aren't just for breakfast anymore! = We had a very interesting piporg-l contingent that time, organized by Steve Lawson. Maybe we can have a combined list group this time?  
(back) Subject: Re: With One Voice clarification From: <REEDSTOP@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:15:49 -0500   >Yes, but one should not forget that Augsburg Fortress does charge $49 >annually for the license to print from WOV; for LBW it's a one-time fee of >$29. It's my understanding that that covers liturgy as well as hymns. It's >all spelled out on their web site.   Yes, I did neglect to mention this because I don't take care of it, and I haven't been at Holy Trinity long enough for it to come up. However, I did find out from Augsburg themselves that they're coming out with a new license and software which will cover a TON of material, hymns and liturgy alike. (I am not sure the current one does cover hymns, but I could be mistaken.) The CD's are a GREAT help, but they do not contain the entire hymnal, only the liturgies, Psalms, and music files for all of the above, and also some other liturgical resources.   >Trouble is, of course, as someone just pointed out and I know only all too >well, Lutherans prefer to keep things the same. I was told by the president >of the church council that if we tried anything other than settings 1 or 2 >in the LBW (e.g., setting 5 in WOV), at least a few people would leave the >church.   You know what, Randy? I say LET THEM GO. I'm so sick of hearing that from congregational members. That we would hold back just for the few that would complain is so ridiculous...and I've served in two churches that did that very sort of thing. For example, my previous church had two services, but only needed one based on the size of the congregation. This had been discussed for YEARS of going to one service, because the size of the crowd was small compared to the size of the building and the capacity. Finally, this past year, the congregation voted to go to one service. Sure enough, one particular couple quit coming. I have it on good authority that they've returned to worship only a few months later. The previous pastor said it best: If this is the reason they'd leave a church, let them go, because their hearts and intentions are way off. I have been in church work long enough to know that you can't please everyone...and those that would leave a church over something like a setting of the liturgy probably are blowhards who just like keeping things the way THEY want them. Unfortunately, they probably also are heavy contributors, right?   This message had an attitude, but it's not directed at YOU, Randy, just at those with small minds who would do something like leave a church over something so small. I hope that you all are able to move forward with the other liturgies, and I'm going to check out Setting Six!! :-)   Kind regards, Jeff      
(back) Subject: Re: Gary Deboer From: <cdkrug@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:12:53 -0400   On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 12:06:21AM -0400, lab wrote: > Trying to find Gary Deboer's E-mail. >   Dunno about Gary, but my email usually winds up in one of my inboxes after procmail finishes sorting it for me   *ducks the inevitable flying tomatoes*    
(back) Subject: Re: With One Voice clarification From: <REEDSTOP@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:18:02 -0500   >Sure, but the pastor of my church refuses to lead; he's told me several >times all he wants is to keep his job. "Let's not rock the boat": his >precise words. So you think I should step into the breach and risk mine?   Wow...is it that easy for an ELCA pastor to be removed? I know in the LCMS it takes a majority vote by the Voters to remove a pastor, and they'd better have good cause to do so. I would be shocked to hear that it's easier to do so in the ELCA church. Alan??   Jeff      
(back) Subject: Conventions [WAS:Re: Philly convention] From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:19:25 -0500   >In a message dated 6/13/02 9:23:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >MFoxy9795@aol.com writes: > ><< Shall we "meet at the eagle"??? >>   Several months ago this topic came up and i asked fro people attending either of the conventions to send an email to: <convention@blackiris.com> which is a special address I use to gather the names of people attending. The following is a list of those that responded along with a couple of names that didn't respond but who I know are attending one of the conventions.   OHS Convention Jon C. Habermaas Malcolm Wechsler Bob Lind Peter Storandt Harry Martenas David Scribner Tim Bovard Sand Lawn TommyLee Whitlock Travis Evans     AGO Convention Malcolm Wechsler Pat Maimone Owen Cannon Mark Quarmby - Sydney, Australia Darryl Miller Merry Foxworth   If you aren't on this list and would like to make your presence know to the other list members attending either convention please send an email to: mailto:convention@blackiris.com and I will add you to the list. I will post the final version of the list sometime next weekend just before I leave for Chicago. Hopefully, there will be list gatherings at each of the conventions - It is always fun to meet the people that you know only from their emails.   David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: essential small organ From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:44:30 +1200   It might be because I'm from a very different country from the USA, but = I'd always want a good chorus on one manual at least, for accompanying singing and playing biggish works. I'd also want colourfel mutations and reeds, = but also want a good old-fashiond dulciana for accompanying a handful of singers, or for accompanying soft solos on the other manual, or for "Communion atmosphere" (you know what I mean). I'd have no interest in, to me, wasting space with a Celeste as it has, in the tradition I come from here, little use in services. So, here is a quick design -   GREAT 8 Principal 8 Stopped Diapason (wood, bored stoppers) 8 Dulciana (not a string, and some 4.75" at CC in scale) 4 Octave 4 Nason (extn 8ft) 2 Fifteenth .. Mixture II (19.22) 8 Cromorne (fat & colourful)   SWELL 8 Gedackt (metal, big scale) 4 Spitzprincipal 4 Quintaton (metal) 2 2/3 Nazard 2 Gemshorn 1 3/5 Tierce 8 Trumpet   PEDAL 16 SubBass (wood) 8 Bass Flute (extn) 4 Flute (extn) 16 Trombone (extn Sw, not half-length) 8 Trumpet (extn)   I realise the Pedal is not very independent, but if we have only 15 registers, not much can be done. Maybe the Dulciana could be borrowed on = the Pedal at 8ft and a 5 1/3 Quint added as well from the Stoped wood rank, = but that's "extra".   The problem is with this exercise, as with any other, several-fold - 1. We don't know the church space or acoustics 2. We don't know the musical tradition of that parish 3. We don't know what anyone there wants to hear 4. Our own experience informs our biases and therefore what we hear when = we see a theoretical design 5. We don't know who would build it. For some builders, a design may be great. For others, it could be an invitation to disaster.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: With One Voice clarification From: <REEDSTOP@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:23:51 -0500   >The only flip side to printing all of the liturgies, of course, is people >evenutally not knowing the Hymnal as well....We questioned it in the >Episcopal church too, wanting people to know their way around the BCP, and >ended up printing most everything on Festivals and Sundays when we knew we'd >have more visitors present (Baptismal Festivals, etc.)...doing less on a >Sunday by Sunday basis.   David, you make a good point about people knowing the hymnal, but here's another perspective: Our church uses LBW, WOV, sometimes Hymnal Supplement 1991...so to flip and juggle books would be quite disconcerting to even the regular members, let alone the visitors. We keep it simple in that regard: everything liturgical is in the bulletin, music included. Hymns are done from the books, but with this sort of notation:   HYMN OF THE DAY Crown Him with Many Crowns LBW #XXX (green hymnal)   Hopefully that came out right. Anything we use that is not in the books would be printed in the program under our CCLI license. With the move away from books and folders altogether toward projectors, I think this is a great middle-of-the-road way of doing things. And, when you think about it, the services in the hymnals have a LOT of extra text that is omitted or ignored, based on choices, etc. Not to mention the difference between PAGE 178 and HYMN 178. :-)   But as I said, I know what you're saying, and do not disagree in the least...   Jeff        
(back) Subject: 15rk instruments From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:54:47 +1200   I meant to add that the kind of action required is also a factor, as some people may prefer to have a 10stop straight tracker than a 15rk unit electric. Even with electric, it may be cheaper to have an extra rank of pipes than make an extension. And an 8ft rank is manifestly dearer to make and plant = on a chest than a 2ft. Just think how much a WurliTzer rank cost compared = with a rank from a "straight" builder in the 1920s. The same differential would apply today. A 15rk WurliTzer can be "mighty", but the average organ of = that size is not. (And that does not mean it should be mighty - I'm merely = making a note). So, as with any scheme, the thing is not to make any design set in = concrete until you know your builder and have spent many hours discussing not only all the musical uses and so on, but also relative costs of this vs that. Then, and only then, can you say we have the design finalised. The comparison can even be drawn with electroniums. There is an Allen thingie in my local church. I'd dearly and happily do without the Swell string Celeste and Great flute Celeste and replace those "stops" with even one Principal rank, of whatever pitch, in the Swell. As the thing stands, the Swell's only Principal stop, so-called, is a large Mixture. Too, with this thing, I'd happily throw away all the scores of useless pistons and = at least the Great and Gen.Crescendo pedals for a better specification. I'm sure the same thing need to be looked at in reference to a (pipe) organ spcification, i.e. we cannot look a6t just the cost of pipes, but also chests, action, accessories and so on. Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: WOV, LBW, and Luth. Liturgical Music as a Whole From: <REEDSTOP@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:34:04 -0500     >My two cents' worth on your question is that changing settings with seasons >is frequent enough, although I grant that some congregations may be >accustomed to more frequent changes.   I think I mentioned that Holy Trinity does four different services each month: First Sunday: Praise. Second: LBW Setting I. Third Sunday: Now the Feast. Fourth Sunday: WOV Setting V (which we just started using instead of LBW II) The congregation seems to enjoy this variety. Now, we do change certain aspects, based on the "rules" of the liturgy (and I don't have that book in front of me), like not using the Kyrie in some seasons and using it in others. But we also change small things. For example, instead of using the regular Alleluia Verse, we might use the Celtic Alleluia, or even "Halle Halle Halleujah." Some food for thought...   Jeff      
(back) Subject: Re: Lutheran Liturgies, etc. From: <REEDSTOP@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:38:44 -0500     >I have only recently heard about this "With One Voice", as I am about to play for a service at my grandparents church in Enid, OK. They told me that they like to use that hymnal and I was afraid it was just a collection of spiritual songs. I guess I need to get back into the "loop" of music.   Justin, there are spiritual, and if you forgive the term, "ethnic" songs, as well as some standards (even hymns that are in LBW too.) It just adds to the rich variety already in the green book.   Regards, jeff      
(back) Subject: Re: The Essentials of a Small Organ From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:53:13 -0500   Pete   Although it is fun to sit around and dream up various stoplists, if your church is thinking about a new organ they should talk to various organ builders and let them decide the specifications. Good organ builders have the experience to know what will work and what doesn't in a given situation. The good firms have their own "style", for what of a better term, and will base their specifications on that "style". I have no idea of what kind of church you play for or what their musical style is but a good firm that has a track record will have experience to know what kind of a specification will work in your situation.   If your church is serious about replacing the organ they should form an organ committee to explore various builders, go hear some of their work and then decide which builder(s) they should they should talk to based on what they have heard.   Just my two cents on the subject.   David  
(back) Subject: Re: Cavaille-Coll From: "Jim Hailey" <jhaileya10@charter.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:28:59 -0500   Cavaille-Coll   How about one heck of an organ?   Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 4:10 PM Subject: Re: Cavaille-Coll     >> > > Randy Runyon runyonr@muohio.edu > Department of French and Italian > Miami University (Oxford, OH 45056, USA) > > > >