PipeChat Digest #2918 - Tuesday, June 18, 2002
 
Re: Shining on
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
Chapel Organ at Palace of Versailles
  by "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
RE: Glenda's Sunday Dinner--off topic
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Re: Shining on
  by <Wurlibird1@aol.com>
Re: Shining on
  by "Jim Hailey" <jhaileya10@charter.net>
RE: The Essentials...
  by "Randy Terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com>
Re: Glenda's Sunday Dinner--off topic
  by "Jim Hailey" <jhaileya10@charter.net>
Re: Correction to My Narrative!
  by "Jim Hailey" <jhaileya10@charter.net>
Re: The Essentials...
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: The Essentials...OOPS!
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: one-manual pipe organs vs. you-know-whats (grin)
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Re: First United Methodist Church, Graham TX
  by "Gary Blevins" <gsblvns@camalott.com>
Congregations run amok!
  by <MyrtleBeachMusic@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Shining on From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:34:42 EDT     --part1_18c.96801ae.2a412ba2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit       > will not ever change. Those songs are the Gloria Patri and the = Doxology,   Well, I did change the Gloria Patri this past fall at our church. Not because I wanted to, but because I wrote a new one (it was there, I didn't =   ask to write it). It has now become our standard GP.   When I introduced the new GP to the congregation, I actually told them = that I had not set out to change the setting, but rather it was there to be = written. It's basically theirs now, and I'm quite happy with the transition.   Usually, our pastor changes the Doxology from Old 100th (#95) to Lasst uns =   erfreun (#94) (pardon me if I have these reversed, and if my German is a = bit aschew) for the summer, but he hasn't done so this year, and I have conveniently forgotten to remind him.   I do tend to think that the Doxology belongs to the congregation, and so should be played "straight". After all, it's the one constant in the service. I used to get annoyed with it, but have since come to understand =   that it is a crazy, mixed up world out there. If we can offer something = in worship that is relatively constant, we are providing a ministry.   Peace and tranquility. Looking forward to seeing some of you in a couple weeks.   Neil   --part1_18c.96801ae.2a412ba2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">will not ever = change.&nbsp; Those songs are the Gloria Patri and the Doxology, = </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> Well, I did change the Gloria Patri this past fall at our church.&nbsp; = Not because I wanted to, but because I wrote a new one (it was there, I = didn't ask to write it).&nbsp; It has now become our standard GP.&nbsp; = <BR> <BR> When I introduced the new GP to the congregation, I actually told them = that I had not set out to change the setting, but rather it was there to = be written.&nbsp; It's basically theirs now, and I'm quite happy with the = transition.<BR> <BR> Usually, our pastor changes the Doxology from Old 100th (#95) to Lasst uns = erfreun (#94) (pardon me if I have these reversed, and if my German is a = bit aschew) for the summer, but he hasn't done so this year, and I have = conveniently forgotten to remind him.<BR> <BR> I do tend to think that the Doxology belongs to the congregation, and so = should be played "straight".&nbsp; After all, it's the one constant in the = service.&nbsp; I used to get annoyed with it, but have since come to = understand that it is a crazy, mixed up world out there.&nbsp; If we can = offer something in worship that is relatively constant, we are providing a = ministry.&nbsp; <BR> <BR> Peace and tranquility.&nbsp; Looking forward to seeing some of you in a = couple weeks.<BR> <BR> Neil</FONT></HTML>   --part1_18c.96801ae.2a412ba2_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Chapel Organ at Palace of Versailles From: "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:15:31 -0400   Another question as follow-up of the trip my wife and I made to France = to celebrate our 40th: can anyone tell us anything about the organ in the chapel at the Palace of Versailles? We got a glimpse of it as we were = being ushered through the place like a heard of cattle en route to the next feeding lot. (That's more positive than saying "en route to the slaughter!!") We did not find anything there in print aboout it.   The case work was quite classic.   Thanx.   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA  
(back) Subject: RE: Glenda's Sunday Dinner--off topic From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:46:15 -0500   Monty, the fatback is cooked into the greens - probably should have mentioned that fact.   There are a couple of Erbens still around here - one in a new home in a church in Mobile and one at its original home at Trinity Episcopal in Apalachicola. The only Moller in the immediate vicinity of which I'm aware is an old Student Artiste at St. Jude's Episcopal, Niceville.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com          
(back) Subject: Re: Shining on From: <Wurlibird1@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:46:52 EDT     > will not ever change. Those songs are the Gloria Patri and the = Doxology,   Each Sunday I play for two UMC churches, one rather large with older parishioners and the other a bit smaller with a slightly younger median = age. We use both the Gloria and Doxology at both locations. To break up = monotony I alternate between the Meineke and Greatorex versions of the Gloria, the first being announced with only a Major G chord and the latter being introduced with the final three measures, just in case the Bulletin does = not specify the page number. We use each for a month, then change.   The Doxology of preference is Old Hundredth. It appears in the service = order immediately after the Offertory. To accommodate ushers returning the offering plates to the Altar, I have an introduction centered on a growing =   D-Major buildup which leads into the last line of the hymn for = introduction. It works well, allows the ushers time to near the Altar area, signals the minister, and prompts the congregation to stand. Once I forgot to include =   the D-major buildup and simply launched into the last-line introduction. People complained to me that I had fouled up the worship order. I have = never forgotten again, although they are not aware that it is my improvisation, = not canonized notes. :-)   The previous pastor decided to eliminate the Gloria altogether and replace =   the Doxology with "All Things Come From Thee, O Lord." That experiment lasted just two weeks and we were back to "normal" after a furious uproar from the congregation.   In church we find some sacred things. The Gloria and Doxology appear to = be numbered among them.   Best wishes, Jim Pitts  
(back) Subject: Re: Shining on From: "Jim Hailey" <jhaileya10@charter.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:19:15 -0500   My good sense tells me to keep my keyboard quiet, but on the other hand, = my desparate need to throw my two cents worth in over rides. First of all, I have been a member of the LCMS for 50 of my 50 years. Secondly, I have = been an organist for 38 of those 50 years. And with all of that being said, it has only been in the past few that I have truly come to appreciate why we have songs and why we have hymns. I guess someone said something than "because that is the way we have always done it."   Unfortunately, most Lutherans, of whom I am acquainted, feel that once = they attend Sunday worship service that they have done their churchly duty = until the following Sunday. It is only during Advent and Lent that we go out of our way to attend the extra services. So, we have got to cram everything = in that one hour that we are there, including songs and hymns. Where am I going with this?   If LCMS congregations would lighten up enough to offer programs that are intended to only bring Christian people together to enjoy themselves by = way of song, it would be most appropriate to sing songs, such as "Shine Jesus Shine". This may even have to be done at the expense of using the = sanctuary where an organ may be available, heaven forbid. Songs such as this make a person feel good. Great. Nothing wrong with that, except that this is a human feeling that is short lived and does nothing to help the soul. Although, I see absolutely nothing wrong with feeling good about Jesus Christ. And since this is a program, as opposed to a service, it would = not hurt to maybe throw a little catechism in with a little of the "whys" on certain traditions.   Now then, when the weekend comes and it is time for "regular" worship, the singing is strictly hymns from the appropriate sources. We now make our = soul feel good instead of our body. We know and understand that this service = is Soli Deo Gloria. Therefore, we conduct ourselves in this manner and all material used is to proclaim the Gospel. But, at the same time, we have whetted our body's appetite to feel good, and we know that there will be a more appropriate time to sing those songs that we enjoy, but are not appropriate for the service.   I hope that I have made sense with this.   Jim H.               ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 3:48 PM Subject: Re: Shining on     > Very intriguing, but I'm not quite sure whether you are saying that > Lutherans, being fallible human beings, tend to be suspicious of the > Theology of Glory and to prefer to sing something other than "Shine, Jesus, > Shine," or whether you are saying that you, as a Missouri Synod pastor (and > > > Randy Runyon > Music Director > Zion Lutheran Church > Hamilton, Ohio > runyonr@muohio.edu > > > > > on 6/18/02 3:04 PM, Richard Jordan at mail@gesangbuch.org wrote: > > > At 01:17 AM 6/19/02 +1000, you wrote: > >>> But what fault can you possibly find with these words: > > > > Lutherans have been carefully trained to be suspicuous of > > Theology of Glory and to focus instead on the Theology of the Cross > > and there is some wisdom in this. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > Richard Jordan > > > > http://www.Lutheran-Hymnal.com > > http://www.OnJordansBanks.com > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: RE: The Essentials... From: "Randy Terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:06:48 -0700 (PDT)   I've followed this thread with interest...   Rick Maryman's stoplist indeed seems well thought-out and very complete. I = have played several *late* small Moller organs, the simi-customized stock models. The largest = ones are around 15 ranks and have a real Principal chorus, real mutations and a workhorse Trumpet. = They seem to work very well when finished with care and in a reasonable acoustic.   Over the years I have played many church organs in the 20 rank range that = were quite limited because the great (unenclosed) consisted of a Principal chorus and a = single 8' Flute, with no swell duplexes. All the good stuff is in the swell and your only choice on = the great is a 8' Flute. How different these instruments would be if only the swell 8' = string and flute and/or the reeds were duplexed to the great.   I have come to feel that in addition to the 8' Principal and Flute, a = third 8' stop, open metal and of very mild (blending) principal character is essential and should be = added before an independent 4' Flute. That extra bit of color and fullness is a great = asset when accompanying singers and solo stops. Many 4' flutes are just too big. I don't have that = luxury at St. Peter's, we used what we had available, so I have independent 8 and 4 flutes. = However, the 4', made from the former Rohr Nasard with 7 additional pipes in the low octave to = complete the rank, is voiced rather mildly. We did de-nick the pipes and revoice them so that there is = more color and speech than originally, but the stop sits on top of the 8' in such a way that the = two can easily accompany the cornet or Oboe in the swell. With this mild 4' Rohrflute I = can do what I think the 8' Gemshorn or Viola does, but I have not seen a 4' flute voiced strictly = to color an 8' as opposed to being a part of a chorus build-up.   Like the rest of you, I feel that the mutations should be real, even it = they are only 37 or 49 note ranks, and a true mixture is essential - not wired from independent = (or worse, not) unison and quint ranks. Here is a 15 (or 16) rank spec. I would employ much more = duplexing and unification for myself, but the basics would be the same. We must all = admit that the exercise of drawing a stoplist is pointless if the scaling and voicing is poor. In the = rebuild at St. Peter's, I chose from a number of samples of vintage ranks to be employed by our = builder particularly the added 8's and 4's and the Oboe. However, I left the voicing of these up to = him as well as the ordering of several new ranks. Once the basic stops were chosen and = assigned to a "home" division, I drew up the stoplist and did the electrical work. The rebuilt = Aeolian-Skinner console with an Artisan Instrumnets control system came online about 2 weeks ago. Not only = has the control system and the various new hardware items of the console exceeded expectation = both in appearance and operation, the stoplist (50 speaking stops over 2 manuals and pedal, drawn = from 20 ranks (including the IV Mixture) works exactly as I wanted it to - The swell is = able to be the perfect foil to the great in either a simi-baroque style or the "full English = Swell" it is intendended to be, and likewise there are any number of smaller solo and accompaniment = choices on the great. Where ranks are shared (for instance the mutations) there is a wonderful = timber change since the 8's and 4's are independent in each division.   Swell:   8' Chimney Flute 8' Viola 8' Celeste 4' Spitzflute 2-2/3' Nasard (tc, borrow from 1-1/3') 2' Blockflute (ext 4) 1-3/5' Tierce (tc, 37 pipes, no top octave) 1-1/3' Larigot 16' Double Trumpet (full length) 8' Trumpet (ext) 8' Oboe (prep if necessary) 4' Clarion (ext) sw 16, 4   Great:   16' Rohr Gedeckt (sw) 8' Diapason 8' Bourdon (wood) 8' Gemshorn 8' Viola Celeste II (sw) 4' Principal 2' Fifteenth (ext 4') III Mixture 1-1/3 (or IV 2' Mixture) 8' Trumpet (sw) 8' Oboe (sw) sw/gt 16, 8, 4 gt 4 (or "Sharp" Mixture - octave borrow from unison Mixture)   Pedal:   32' Resultant (10-2/3 from swell 16) 16' Bourdon (independent) 16' Rhor Gedeckt (metal, sw) 8' Octave (gt) 8' Bass Flute (ext 16) 8' Gemshorn (gt) 4' Choralbass (gt 8') 2' Spitzflute (sw) 16' Double Trumpet (sw) 8' Trumpet (sw) 4' Clarion (sw) 4' Oboe (sw) gt 8 sw 8     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Randy Terry, Director of Music & Organist Mona Dena, Choir Director The Episcopal Church of St. Peter 178 Clinton Street Redwood City, California www.stpetersrwc.org   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Glenda's Sunday Dinner--off topic From: "Jim Hailey" <jhaileya10@charter.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:41:22 -0500   Boy Glenda, your geography brings me back to the days that I lived in = Panama City Beach.   Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> To: "'PipeChat'" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 8:46 PM Subject: RE: Glenda's Sunday Dinner--off topic     > Monty, the fatback is cooked into the greens - probably should have > mentioned that fact. > > There are a couple of Erbens still around here - one in a new home in a > church in Mobile and one at its original home at Trinity Episcopal in > Apalachicola. The only Moller in the immediate vicinity of which I'm > aware is an old Student Artiste at St. Jude's Episcopal, Niceville. > > Glenda Sutton > gksjd85@direcway.com > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: Correction to My Narrative! From: "Jim Hailey" <jhaileya10@charter.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:09:21 -0500   Are we talking about a chocolate, caramel nugget Mars bar? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan B. Hall" <jonathan@jonathanbhall.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 8:28 AM Subject: Correction to My Narrative!     > I must correct one small but vital detail. It was no mere lay-clerk > who served me my first Purple Nasty; it was Simon himself! And he > points out that, the enthusiastic endorsement I heard notwithstanding, > it is not entirely illegal in England. There are just many pubs too > sensible to sell it. > > On my next trip I have been promised another Scottish culinary treat: > a Mars bar, dipped in batter and deep-fried. Not even the > fried-green-tomatoes cuisine of the American South has heard of that > one, i'll bet...or has it?? > > :) > > J > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: The Essentials... From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:11:19 -0500   www.stpetersrwc.org   Hi!   Looks like the Web-Page is due for an Update! I was looking it over and most stuff dates from November, 2001 on the Calendar!   Just thought you'd appreciate a reminder. .. .   Hope all is well.   Faithfully,   Grandpa Arp   -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL mailto:arp@starband.net SHOP SATELLITE EMAIL mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME OFFICE EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL  
(back) Subject: Re: The Essentials...OOPS! From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:23:51 -0500   Hi, List.   I had meant for that message regarding his church's Web-Page to go to Randy privately. I thought I had deleted the Webpage Address, but apparently, didn't succeed.   Sorry! They say the mind is the first thing to go.   Faithfully, -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL mailto:arp@starband.net SHOP SATELLITE EMAIL mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME OFFICE EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL  
(back) Subject: Re: one-manual pipe organs vs. you-know-whats (grin) From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:22:59 -0500   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 6:59 PM Subject: Re: one-manual pipe organs vs. you-know-whats (grin)     > At the risk of undue self-promotion, let me invite you to consider = my CD > of the Orwell VT 1-10 by E & G G Hook, 1865, with two ocatves of = pedals > and a 16' Bourdon. (Well, O.K.: half of the CD is the 1849 Hook at = North > Easton MA.) The Orwell organ is amazing!!!!   No, Karl, this is not undue self-promotion, the results really were remarkable.   On the CD I demonstrate the > solo-plus-accompaniment effect achievable by playing the solo an octave > higher and also "quinting" it, i;.e., playing the solo in fifths, with = the > lower note of the fifth an octave higher than written, thus forming a > resultant. The results are so successful   The results were so successful, indeed, that after listening to the recording I tried it myself. It worked remarkably well for me as well, = and figuring out how to play in fifths proved a lot easier than one might have thought. At least with slowish solos it is hardly more difficult than playing it straight.   Something else not to forget is that many eighteenth-century English one-manual organs had a three rank mixture that was divided at middle C as Sesquialtera Bass III Rks. (17-19-22) + Cornet Treble III Rks. (12-15-17). This could either be used as both halves, to produce a tierce chorus mixture, or with the bass or treble by itself to produce a solo. A very useful stop to remember if planning a one-manual instrument, although it = is important not to make the tierce too prominent.   John Speller    
(back) Subject: Re: First United Methodist Church, Graham TX From: "Gary Blevins" <gsblvns@camalott.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 23:08:18 -0500   Hi Josh, So sorry about the damage to the church, but glad no more damage was done = to the church and the organ than what you described. I hope for you and all concerned, that all of the repairs will be satisfacory, and that normal services resume ASAP! My prayers to you all in getting back to the sanctuary soon. Good Luck and God Bless Gary    
(back) Subject: Congregations run amok! From: <MyrtleBeachMusic@aol.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 00:29:50 EDT     --part1_50.d1b89e6.2a4162be_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 6/18/2002 9:49:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Wurlibird1@aol.com writes:     > Once I forgot to include > the D-major buildup and simply launched into the last-line introduction. = > People complained to me that I had fouled up the worship order. I have > never > forgotten again, although they are not aware that it is my = improvisation, > not > canonized notes. :-) > > The previous pastor decided to eliminate the Gloria altogether and = replace > the Doxology with "All Things Come From Thee, O Lord." That experiment > lasted just two weeks and we were back to "normal" after a furious = uproar > from the congregation.   Not directed at you Jim, but in general:   No wonder we're now dealing with congregations run amok who think they can =   just throw out that famous call to war...."We've never done it that way before, put it back the way it was".....and expect everyone in a = leadership position should bow, beg forgiveness, and do penance --- pastors and musicians continue to sheepishly back down and allow their creativity to = be stifled over and over again thereby adding to the congregations' "bully pride".   Confrontations like those above are the PERFECT time to not be a whimp, = not be combative and stubborn, but rather to educate (I hate that overused = term, but it works here) or even get them to change their minds on the issue. = And if they refuse to budge, then "I'm sorry you feel that way...."   But if something as insignificant in the big picture as a complaint about = the altering of the Gloria Patri (which in most denominations has absolutely = no REAL significance except being a cue to stand up, stretch, sing a few bars =   and sit back down) or the Old 100th thing is sufficient to make leaders submit like chastised children, it's no wonder that most churches simply maintain the "spiritual status quo". The leaders won't assert themselves = as the leaders they were hired to be!!!   Of course it's not that black and white, but at the most basic level, = leaders MUST keep in mind that if we are to be imitators of God (as directed in Ephesians), we must be able to put ourselves on the line for the = proclamation and living out of the Gospel. If we can't even get past the Gloria Patri = and Doxology, my friends, we've got a problem.   Just my 25 3/4 cents   Jeremy   --part1_50.d1b89e6.2a4162be_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 6/18/2002 9:49:05 PM Eastern = Daylight Time, Wurlibird1@aol.com writes:<BR> <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Once I forgot to = include <BR> the D-major buildup and simply launched into the last-line = introduction.&nbsp; <BR> People complained to me that I had fouled up the worship order.&nbsp; I = have never <BR> forgotten again, although they are not aware that it is my improvisation, = not <BR> canonized notes.&nbsp; :-)&nbsp; <BR> <BR> The previous pastor decided to eliminate the Gloria altogether and replace = <BR> the Doxology with "All Things Come From Thee, O Lord."&nbsp; That = experiment <BR> lasted just two weeks and we were back to "normal" after a furious uproar = <BR> from the congregation.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> Not directed at you Jim, but in general:<BR> <BR> No wonder we're now dealing with congregations run amok who think they can = just throw out that famous call to war...."We've never done it that way = before, put it back the way it was".....and expect everyone in a = leadership position should bow, beg forgiveness, and do penance --- = pastors and musicians continue to sheepishly back down and allow their = creativity to be stifled over and over again thereby adding to the = congregations' "bully pride".<BR> <BR> Confrontations like those above are the PERFECT time to not be a whimp, not be combative and stubborn, but = rather to educate (I hate that overused term, but it works here) or even = get them to change their minds on the issue.&nbsp; And if they refuse to = budge, then "I'm sorry you feel that way...."<BR> <BR> But if something as insignificant in the big picture as a complaint about = the altering of the Gloria Patri (which in most denominations has = absolutely no REAL significance except being a cue to stand up, stretch, = sing a few bars and sit back down) or the Old 100th thing is sufficient to = make leaders submit like chastised children, it's no wonder that most = churches simply maintain the "spiritual status quo".&nbsp; The leaders = won't assert themselves as the leaders they were hired to be!!!<BR> <BR> Of course it's not that black and white, but at the most basic level, = leaders MUST keep in mind that if we are to be imitators of God (as = directed in Ephesians), we must be able to put ourselves on the line for = the proclamation and living out of the Gospel.&nbsp; If we can't even get = past the Gloria Patri and Doxology, my friends, we've got a problem.<BR> <BR> Just my 25 3/4 cents<BR> <BR> Jeremy</FONT></HTML>   --part1_50.d1b89e6.2a4162be_boundary--