PipeChat Digest #2928 - Friday, June 21, 2002
 
Re: Is it pipes vs.digital....not really.
  by "Jim Hailey" <jhaileya10@charter.net>
Pedalboard compass
  by "Patricia/Thomas Gregory" <tgregory@speeddial.net>
RE: Pedalboard compass
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
Re: Is it pipes vs.digital....not really.
  by "Richard Jordan" <mail@gesangbuch.org>
Re: Pedalboard compass
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Pedalboard compass
  by "Robert Lind" <Robert_Lind@cch.com>
RE: Pedalboard compass & BACH
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
one-manual organs
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Acoustical sealer
  by "C. Joseph Nichols" <cjn@nicholsandsimpson.com>
design of the small organ
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
RE: Pedalboard compass
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
Re: one-manual organs
  by <Phil_Cooper@dot.ca.gov>
One Manual Organs
  by "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net>
Re: one-manual organs
  by "Robert Lind" <Robert_Lind@cch.com>
RE: Pedalboard compass
  by "Joshua Edwards" <fbcorganist@charter.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Is it pipes vs.digital....not really. From: "Jim Hailey" <jhaileya10@charter.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:02:36 -0500   Nick,   I have been a member of this list for about 4 years and have heard this argument about once every 3 months.   Quite honestly, there are members that would prefer pipes over digital eve if they had to lay 61 parishioners on the floor with an 8' prinzipal in their mouths and tap them on the toe with they wanted them to blow, rather than play a digital, However, I with also state that if you want a = trumpet en chamade you must stand them up .   Me, I like'em both.   Jim H.     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Grbac" <NickGTV@webtv.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 1:19 AM Subject: Is it pipes vs.digital....not really.     > Hello: > > I feel like some are missing the point. > > NickGTV > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Pedalboard compass From: "Patricia/Thomas Gregory" <tgregory@speeddial.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:03:37 -0500   Greetings:   Off the top of my head I can think of the Dupre Cortege et Litany which = uses G 32 in the pedal board. -- Thomas and Patricia Gregory 716 West College Avenue Waukesha WI USA 53186-4569  
(back) Subject: RE: Pedalboard compass From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:13:14 -0400   I'm just grateful that originally the organ wasn't designed for us to play the "pedals" --or rather in this case the foot manual--with our toes!! Wouldn't THAT look weird. RBC   -----Original Message----- From: Patricia/Thomas Gregory [mailto:tgregory@speeddial.net] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 7:04 AM To: Pipechat Subject: Pedalboard compass     Greetings:   Off the top of my head I can think of the Dupre Cortege et Litany which = uses G 32 in the pedal board. -- Thomas and Patricia Gregory 716 West College Avenue Waukesha WI USA 53186-4569   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Re: Is it pipes vs.digital....not really. From: "Richard Jordan" <mail@gesangbuch.org> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:36:04 -0500   At 11:19 PM 6/20/02 -0700, you wrote: >To me, the larger and more important issue is fighting for more organ >MUSIC in churches (where frequently it is disappearing), NOT whether an >organ was built by Moller or Allen.   that is a good question, how do you get more organ music? does it perhaps involve training more organists? how many churches are regularly training new organists? how many have scholarships to assist with lessons? I think the solution begins at the grass roots level. I am afraid if we don't get busy, the disappearence of organists will lead to even fewer organs and even less organ music.         Regards, Richard Jordan   http://www.Lutheran-Hymnal.com http://www.OnJordansBanks.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Pedalboard compass From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:42:03 -0700   Dupre Prelude in g minor, Sowerby "Fast and Sinister" (?) ...   I have a question, though -- most French organs only go to F ... did Dupre write the g minor Prelude (and Cortege and Litany, for that matter) for his home organ, which (I believe) DID have the G pedal compass?   Cheers,   Bud   pat and ian wrote: > > What published, or other, organ compositions require the top F# and the = G on > a 32-note pedalboard? > > If there aren't any, why do we need 32 notes on the pedalboard? > > Ian. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Pedalboard compass From: "Robert Lind" <Robert_Lind@cch.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:51:37 -0500   I couldn't begin to list the number of organ works that call for f# and /or g at the top of the pedalboard, but I'll quote you two examples that require the next half-step up:   Frederick Karam's Gigue calls for a G# above middle C in the pedals.   In the Preludio from 5 Bagatelles by Rudolf Maros, the penultimate note in the first pedal passage is Ab above middle = C. Are there others?   Bob Lind in the Chicago suburbs             pat and ian <patian@senet.com.au> 06/21/2002 02:36 AM Please respond to PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> To: pipechat@pipechat.org@SMTP@cchntmsd cc: Theatreorgans-L@theatreorgans.com@SMTP@cchntmsd Subject: Pedalboard compass       What published, or other, organ compositions require the top F# and the G on a 32-note pedalboard?   If there aren't any, why do we need 32 notes on the pedalboard?   Ian.      
(back) Subject: RE: Pedalboard compass & BACH From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:10:59 -0400   I remember being told a very long time ago just prior to my first organ lesson that Bach's music only went up to d which is not true, as we all know. I assume that possibly before Bach and his contemporaries that pedal boards might have only gone that far and that's what the person who told = me this meant..- RBC    
(back) Subject: one-manual organs From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 07:23:57 -0700   I must be missing something here ... as I understand it, the argument has been put forth that Aunt Suzy / Uncle Fester would have an EASIER time of it with a two-manual electronic substitute with the usual bells and whistles than they would with a simple one-manual pipe organ; and also that the MUSIC in these churches is more SUITABLE for and electronic substitute than it is for a pipe organ.   First, let's assume that Suzy/Fester is a pianist who has been pressed into service. The thing that terrifies pianists the MOST about an organ is the array of tabs, knobs, and gadgets. While a Pedal to Great Bass or a Swell to Great Melody coupler might be very useful to a pianist, they're NOT likely to DISCOVER what it's FOR unless the sales person SHOWS them.   A couple of generations ago, pianists didn't have any trouble figuring out what to do with REED organs with divided stops and treble and bass couplers.   I'm sorry, but I have to say that a lot of the people who are insisting upon two or three manuals of digital in a country church (1) have never played in one (I HAVE), and (2) have certain misconceptions about what IS played and sung.   The music: that little seven-stop Estey that I keep talking about practically NEVER played anything but Lorenz organ and choir fodder. The organist's library was Lorenz organ mags; the choir library was Lorenz choir mags, and Lorenz Christmas and Easter cantatas. So I don't see that it makes a difference whether the organist plays THAT, or repertoire from the list I posted. Even LORENZ sounds better on a pipe organ (grin).   In the case of the countless little Episcopal churches scattered throughout the rural U.S., Merbecke (or whatever the 1982 Hymnal equivalent is) and four or five hymns simply doesn't REQUIRE forty stops over two manuals and pedals. IF there are voluntaries at ALL, they're also likely to be hymns out of the Hymnal, or simple piano pieces from the pianist's well-worn "church" repertoire ... Handel's "Largo", etc.   I simply don't GET the idea that volunteers and amateurs would be better served by a large(r) substitute than they would be by a small version of the real thing.   A lot of those one-manual organs on OCH can be BOUGHT, MOVED, *and* RESTORED for the cost of a mid-sized electronic substitute, or LESS, depending on the amount of volunteer labor to do the scut-work -- building the pipe-trays, packing the pipes, loading the truck, etc. etc. etc.   If you simply MUST have two manuals, there are some small two-manual organs available as well. I'm not stuck on the one-manual organ as the be-all and end-all alternative to digital, IF you have the height and depth for a two-manual pipe organ. For that matter, there are also small electro-pneumatic pipe organs (Artistes, etc.) that are more amenable to being re-configured to fit different spaces.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Acoustical sealer From: "C. Joseph Nichols" <cjn@nicholsandsimpson.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:26:22 -0500   Dear fellow listers:   There has been some interest expressed in acoustical sealers.   I am providing a list of those I am aware of, I am certain there are = others. I have experience with Okon and Okon sealer, which was applied before the Okon to prevent color bleed.   I hope the information is useful.   Coronado 70-200, aquaplastic urethane Coronado Paint Company P. O. Box 308 Edgewater, FL 32032 800-874-4193   Kyanize L-0560 with L-0561 flat finish Hudson-Shatz Painting Co. 429 West West 53rd St. New York, NY 10019   M. A. B. Hydro-Clear (acrylic latex) M. A. B. Paints and Coatings 600 Reed Road Broomall, PA 15008 215-353-5100   Okon four-times-solid-density sealer Okon, Inc. 6000 West 13th Avenue Lakewood, CO 80214 303-232-3571   I would suggest that you do a Google search for any of these companies <before> you try to contact them to make sure that the addresses and phone numbers given are correct. This list is about 3 years old.   C. Joseph Nichols Nichols & Simpson, Inc. www.nicholsandsimpson.com    
(back) Subject: design of the small organ From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 07:44:50 -0700   The problem with most of the MODERN small pipe organs is two-fold:   (1) they don't have the all-important 8' Open Diapason. I can't think of ANY of the little stock "catalog" organs from the 19th and early 20th centuries (Hinners, Hook, Erben, Estey, etc.) that DIDN'T have an 8' Open Diapason, even if C-F or C-c had to be stopped wood.   (2) is related to (1). MOST of the churches these organs went into DIDN'T have good acoustics.   Nothing is LESS suitable for them than the typical   MANUAL I   8' Chimney Flute 4' Principal 2' Octave 2/3' (or higher) Mixture   with   MANUAL II   8' Wooden Gedeckt 4' Stopped Flute 2' Principal 1/3' (or higher) Mixture   I'm only exaggerating SLIGHTLY about the pitches of the Mixtures (grin).   The 19th century builders KNEW what to do with dry acoustics: strengthen the 8' tone and the 16' bass, widen the scales, and REIN IN THE TREBLES.   Another point: the harmonic development of those old organs was such that one didn't NEED the higher pitches to achieve a full, round plenum sound; at the same time, the 8' Open Diapason gave the necessary "gravitas" for leading congregational singing.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: RE: Pedalboard compass From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:41:01 -0400   How does one compensate for this and are the composers aware of the limit = or did they have organs that had these notes? -RBC   -----Original Message----- From: Robert Lind [mailto:Robert_Lind@cch.com] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 9:52 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Pedalboard compass     I couldn't begin to list the number of organ works that call for f# and /or g at the top of the pedalboard, but I'll quote you two examples that require the next half-step up:   Frederick Karam's Gigue calls for a G# above middle C in the pedals.   In the Preludio from 5 Bagatelles by Rudolf Maros, the penultimate note in the first pedal passage is Ab above middle = C. Are there others?   Bob Lind in the Chicago suburbs             pat and ian <patian@senet.com.au> 06/21/2002 02:36 AM Please respond to PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> To: pipechat@pipechat.org@SMTP@cchntmsd cc: Theatreorgans-L@theatreorgans.com@SMTP@cchntmsd Subject: Pedalboard compass       What published, or other, organ compositions require the top F# and the G on a 32-note pedalboard?   If there aren't any, why do we need 32 notes on the pedalboard?   Ian.       "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Re: one-manual organs From: <Phil_Cooper@dot.ca.gov> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 07:44:00 -0700     Bud - THANK YOU - EXACTLY MY FEELINGS AS WELL!!!   Philip T. D. Cooper Davis, California       = quilisma@socal = .rr.com To: pipechat = <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent by: cc: = <pipechat@pipe Subject: one-manual organs = chat.org> = = = 06/21/2002 = 07:23 AM = Please respond = to "PipeChat" = = =         I must be missing something here ... as I understand it, the argument has been put forth that Aunt Suzy / Uncle Fester would have an EASIER time of it with a two-manual electronic substitute with the usual bells and whistles than they would with a simple one-manual pipe organ; and also that the MUSIC in these churches is more SUITABLE for and electronic substitute than it is for a pipe organ.   First, let's assume that Suzy/Fester is a pianist who has been pressed into service. The thing that terrifies pianists the MOST about an organ is the array of tabs, knobs, and gadgets. While a Pedal to Great Bass or a Swell to Great Melody coupler might be very useful to a pianist, they're NOT likely to DISCOVER what it's FOR unless the sales person SHOWS them.   A couple of generations ago, pianists didn't have any trouble figuring out what to do with REED organs with divided stops and treble and bass couplers.   I'm sorry, but I have to say that a lot of the people who are insisting upon two or three manuals of digital in a country church (1) have never played in one (I HAVE), and (2) have certain misconceptions about what IS played and sung.   The music: that little seven-stop Estey that I keep talking about practically NEVER played anything but Lorenz organ and choir fodder. The organist's library was Lorenz organ mags; the choir library was Lorenz choir mags, and Lorenz Christmas and Easter cantatas. So I don't see that it makes a difference whether the organist plays THAT, or repertoire from the list I posted. Even LORENZ sounds better on a pipe organ (grin).   In the case of the countless little Episcopal churches scattered throughout the rural U.S., Merbecke (or whatever the 1982 Hymnal equivalent is) and four or five hymns simply doesn't REQUIRE forty stops over two manuals and pedals. IF there are voluntaries at ALL, they're also likely to be hymns out of the Hymnal, or simple piano pieces from the pianist's well-worn "church" repertoire ... Handel's "Largo", etc.   I simply don't GET the idea that volunteers and amateurs would be better served by a large(r) substitute than they would be by a small version of the real thing.   A lot of those one-manual organs on OCH can be BOUGHT, MOVED, *and* RESTORED for the cost of a mid-sized electronic substitute, or LESS, depending on the amount of volunteer labor to do the scut-work -- building the pipe-trays, packing the pipes, loading the truck, etc. etc. etc.   If you simply MUST have two manuals, there are some small two-manual organs available as well. I'm not stuck on the one-manual organ as the be-all and end-all alternative to digital, IF you have the height and depth for a two-manual pipe organ. For that matter, there are also small electro-pneumatic pipe organs (Artistes, etc.) that are more amenable to being re-configured to fit different spaces.   Cheers,   Bud     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org          
(back) Subject: One Manual Organs From: "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:07:15 -0500   For those of you interested in one manual organs; there have been a number of writings on the subject you might wish to consult: In 1967 Robert J. Reich prepared a "List of Music For the Positive Organ", which was distributed by the Andover Organ Co. The Nov. 1968 Diapason carried an article "Music for One Manual" listing appropriate appropriate music from many publishers. The Dec. 1968 Diapason included an article by Donald R. M. Patterson; "A One Manual Organ in the Church Service" These articles were collected together by Alan Laufmann in a small brochure, which included pictures of organs and stoplists. This helpful brochure is called "A One Manual Sampler" and is presumably still available from the Organ Clearing House. Last year we restored a one manual, four rank, Hinners for the Episcopal Church in Calvert, Texas. The organ had been mail ordered, shipped in two sections (the main legs were cut halfway up) and assembled by locals. In the 1950s they bought a Hammond, and chopped off pedalboard and keyboard to make room for the Hammond. Later they bought another electronic, which was failing in 2000. When interest developed in restoring the organ, the original keydesk and pedalboard could not be found. Replacements were found by us from another similar Hinners organ, which fit perfectly. Were amazed again at the tonal effect and versatility of this small organ in a church seating only about 125. The stoplist: Manual 8' Diapason, (large sound in facade; remainder in front of swell box 8' Viola (from tenor c), enclosed 8' Stopped Diapason, enclosed Pedal 16' Bourdon, (originally 12 notes, extended to 27, the full compass of the original pedalboard. Keyboard divided at middle c Octave Coupler Pedal Coupler    
(back) Subject: Re: one-manual organs From: "Robert Lind" <Robert_Lind@cch.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:13:26 -0500   I'm totally in agreement with Sebastian. In fact, a one-manual organ for me is a total turn-off and I don't even care = to give it a try. This may very well border on the irrational, but there it = is. Bud plays a limited repertory that is based upon what he likes and what he can physically handle after one or more strokes. I am = thankful--daily--that even though I'm older than he, I am still able, willing, and wanting to learn new repertory from all over the place on a weekly basis while = working full time in the corporate world, holding a demanding church position, and composing as time (what time?) permits. And over the years in my current church position (almost 15 years) I have pretty much turned the organ-playing part of it into what I want it to be--very eclectic, = exciting, moving solo organ music that draws listeners in and makes them realize = that the King of Instruments is truly a remarkably fine music maker that is NOT = a tinker toy, a museum piece, or a dinosaur headed for extinction. The down side is that in deference to trends and pendulum-swinging beyond my = control, I've continually pushed the choir music toward "contemporary" styles--but without "going too far". But that's another matter entirely.   From the moment I became thrilled with the pipe organ as a little kid to the day I began lessons, I wanted color, variety, versatility. I want to improvise, I want to play literature from (almost) all periods, and I want to be excited by sounds that will keep me going day after day to search for more great organ works, to learn them, = and to play them to the glory of God.   A limited, one-manual organ simply will not do it for me. I would far rather play a fine piano any day. A good piano = is a great companion for any serious musician ... and I suppose a one-manual organ will do for limited practicing or for home use.   Please forgive the rant.   Bob Lind Good Shepherd Church Naperville, IL         quilisma@socal.rr.com 06/19/2002 08:17 PM Please respond to PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> To: pipechat <pipechat@pipechat.org>@SMTP@cchntmsd cc: Subject: one-manual organs     I don't often disagree with Sebastian, but I (obviously) do in this case.   First of all, there's a great deal of literature FOR the one-manual organ ... English, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, South German, etc., even BEFORE you get to the 19th century and all the French stuff.   Second, you remark that a one-manual organ can't play most of the literature that "drew people to the pipe organ in the first place."   Well, I'm not TALKING about recital literature. Sure, the first recital I ever heard was The Fox on a 4-manual E.M. Skinner, and it made me decide to be an organist. BUT, that's not the PRINCIPAL function of the kind of organ I'm talking about, in the kind of situation I'm talking about. That Skinner was in a big downtown Congregational church in St. Petersburg, FL.; the little Estey in my mother's church was in a a little "company" mining village of about 2000 people ... it was the only organ in town.   There's nothing that I'm REQUIRED to do in the course of an old-fashioned Anglican High Mass that I couldn't do on the one-manual organ I described. In fact, we almost bought a virtually identical one-manual Hinners as an interim instrument until the Holtkamp comes, but I couldn't QUITE fit it into our west gallery on the main floor (at least not with a CHOIR) (grin).   What I'm REQUIRED to do on Sunday morning:   Play an opening voluntary, which can be anything (QUIET) that I like, except during Passiontide, when there isn't one.   Accompany four hymns (sung by the congregation). Accompany the Kyrie, Gloria, Doxology, Sanctus, Amen, Agnus Dei (sung by the congregation) Accompany the Introit, Gradual, Alleluia, Offertory Verse, Communion Verse (sung by the choir or a soloist, usually to Gregorian Chant) Accompany the Offertory and Communion Anthems or Solos (sung by the choir or a soloist)   Play a closing voluntary, which can be anything (LOUD) that I like, except during Passiontide, when there isn't one.   Nothing in that summary would require anything more than a one-manual organ. The operative word is "ACCOMPANY."   I have three general pistons set on the toaster for that: flute and string for chant accompaniment; foundations 8-4 (plus or minus Oboe) for accompanying the Mass, and principal chorus (plus or minus Mixture) for the hymns.   St. Matthew's seats 150 people; I have 10-20 singers in the choir; we're blessed with EXCELLENT acoustics.   And I would say that's considerably MORE than would be required in a Protestant church of similar size.   Cheers,   Bud          
(back) Subject: RE: Pedalboard compass From: "Joshua Edwards" <fbcorganist@charter.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:22:53 -0400   The only thing I can think of.... do you think that if you use a mutation and a mutation only that you could actually play that note on the pedals that doesn't exist?   Josh in TN