PipeChat Digest #2930 - Saturday, June 22, 2002 Re: Training young organists by <RonSeverin@aol.com> RE: small rooms, organs, and speakers-HELP! by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@VASSAR.EDU> Re: Pedalboard compass by "Karl Moyer" <email@example.com> Re: small rooms, organs, and speakers-HELP! by "C. Joseph Nichols" <firstname.lastname@example.org> OK, I WILL let it go, since it appears Mr. (Dr.?) Lind can't be civil - by <email@example.com> Re: small rooms, organs, and speakers-HELP! by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@VASSAR.EDU> Re: small rooms, organs, and speakers-HELP! by <RonSeverin@aol.com> Re: one-manual organs by "jch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: one-manual organs by "jch" <email@example.com> Re: OK, I WILL let it go, since it appears Mr. (Dr.?) Lind can't be civil by "pat and ian" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: small rooms, organs, and speakers-HELP! by "C. Joseph Nichols" <email@example.com> Favourite performances of Bach by <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Is it pipes vs.digital....not really. by "Russ Greene" <email@example.com> Re: small rooms, organs, and speakers-HELP! by <Pologaptommy@aol.com> What do we call them "harmonic mixtures?" by "Karl Moyer" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Organist Recruiting by "Paul Soulek" <email@example.com> Re: Digital creativity by <Chicaleee@aol.com> Another Jewel in New York's Crown of Organs by "Marika E. Buchberger, LRPS" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: Re: Training young organists From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:38:08 EDT Dear Richard Jordan and list: Audrey Jacobsen of Holy Family Cathedral, Orange CA has indeed undertaken the task to train young organists for church service. They range in age from 6 to 17. Local organ shops have donated organs for these children to practice at home. There are about 18-20 in this most worthwhile program. 4 or 5 children play a Mass each week at the 9:30 Children's Mass. They are studying both Piano and Organ with Audrey and are very enthusiastic in being able to participate making contributions to the Devine Service. Several students are also beginning to play from memory. This is great to see, and hope others will also develope their own outreach programs as Audrey has done. Audrey was awarded Fulbright Scholarships to study in Paris and in Rome. The Cathedral Church is located between the 5 and 600 block of Glassell St. Orange CA. The second year end recital will be 2 PM Saturday June 22, tomorrow. If you are in the area, Just come up to the organ gallery and grab a seat, I'm sure all will be welcome to hear them play. This is a week by week encounter with the organ, and these students are hooked on the King of Instruments. Ron Severin
(back) Subject: RE: small rooms, organs, and speakers-HELP! From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@VASSAR.EDU> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:44:09 -0700 > >Hi, > >There are other good powered sub-woofers out there, especially if >you are not trying to do a 32' Contra Bourdon. The one we use is >made by Earthquake in California. This thing when it going starts >hoping around so it does need to be secured. I think these folk >have several models. We use the biggest of them. > >Arie V. > thanks for the info. I initially saw this unit hooked to a Walker electronic. And yes it also needs to be tied down. I think the spec says flat to 12 Hz. so yes it would do a 32! John V
(back) Subject: Re: Pedalboard compass From: "Karl Moyer" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:39:57 -0400 Yea, you are entire correct, and I stand properly corrected. I wrote without checking my memory. And, you know, it's been YEARS since I've played that piece!! Maybe I should again. It's sort of a "period" peice, but still a successful work in its own way. Cordially, Karl > From: "John Foss" <firstname.lastname@example.org> > Reply-To: "PipeChat" <email@example.com> > Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 20:33:10 +0300 > To: "PipeChat" <firstname.lastname@example.org> > Subject: Re: Pedalboard compass > > Sorry Karl - no! The Bonnet came to my mind - I played it in a concert = last > week - but it doesn't go abve F natural! I have the copy in front of me. > John Foss > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karl Moyer" <email@example.com> > To: "PipeChat" <firstname.lastname@example.org> > Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 7:56 PM > Subject: Re: Pedalboard compass > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:email@example.com > Administration: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:email@example.com > >
(back) Subject: Re: small rooms, organs, and speakers-HELP! From: "C. Joseph Nichols" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:34:21 -0500 > > > >Adding the Carver takes basically care of everything. It has a built in > >crossover network that channels only the lows out to the subwoofer and the > >balance to the satelite speakers. Can't help but jump in here. We did a 12 note 32' electronic extension of = a Bourdon. My business partner suggested we take his Carver Sunfire = subwoofer from his house to the church to try it. Within 10 minutes, it self-destructed and was not too impressive before it died. Though it was comical to watch it try to shake itself loose from the moorings we = supplied. I suppose in a home organ situation the Sunfire might be perfectly = suitable. It is impressive as a subwoofer to an audiophile stereo system. We build a 9.8 cu. ft. trapezoidal ported box with 2-15" drivers and amp = it with the Walker amp as built by Carver. A 12 note extension in a moderate to large building only requires one speaker cabinet. For all Walker installations and larger rooms we supply 2 cabinets. The reason we have used digital 32's at all has always been for space reasons. Economics are = a plus, but not the driving force behind our decisions in the past. The Walker subwoofers are 30 cu. ft. each and we usually have trouble finding room for them so we have chosen to design and build our own. If I had not already done all the homework on our speaker coupled with successful implementation, I would definitely look at the active 18" subwoofer from BagEnd. The professional models do not have the controller or amplifier mounted in the speaker cabinet, which is a definite plus in my opinion. I am not sure of the size of the BagEnd subwoofer but it looks really small, not much bigger than the 18" driver itself. The ELF controller is = available in several rackmountable versions. Any suitable power amp could be used with this set up--such as the Carver/Walker. Just my nickel's worth. C. Joseph Nichols Nichols & Simpson, Inc. www.nicholsandsimpson.com
(back) Subject: OK, I WILL let it go, since it appears Mr. (Dr.?) Lind can't be civil - DELETE IF NOT INTERESTED From: <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:34:00 -0700 Robert Lind wrote: Bud, you keep harping and talking about the same stuff all the time! Well, yeah; repetition IS necessary in the case of UNUSUALLY hard heads. I find it all entirely too limiting, unappealing, > and defeating to those who want to get onward and upward. So a digital substitute is "onward and upward?" That seems to be what you're implying. And I simply am > tired of all the people here who just know what's demeaningly right in a > rural setting or in a smallish setting or for an uninformed bunch of > troglodytes. Poor country bumpkins. Poor cretins. They can't expect to = know > what to do with anything beyond a primitive, grayish existence. Let's = think > "little" because they have little minds and no experience, liking, or > knowledge of what's out there in the real world. Um ... your words, not mine. The folks at Mulberry Methodist are VERY proud of their pipe organs, past and present; I found (and still find) nothing objectionable about the music ... nor do I have any objections to walking across the street and taking a Mass at the tiny (Episcopal) Mission of Saint Luke the Evangelist (whose NAME is longer than the NAVE of their chapel) on their vintage Hammond SPINET, which replaced an Estey pump organ. It's akin to people in a > ghetto. They simply can't get beyond what they were born into, poor = souls, > so why should anyone offer them any opportunity to grow. Certainly NOT a conscientious PIPE organ builder ... HEAVEN FORFEND! I was born right in > the middle of Kansas, and guess I should be mighty grateful that we = moved to > California when I was four years old. (My mother liked to tell me that I = was > musical because she went to a performance of "Messiah" in Lindsborg, = Kansas, > just a few days before she went into labor.) Kansas' gain is California's loss? (grin) > > Have you ever realized how many good > instruments there are in Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, Kentucky, Tennessee = today? > Take a good look. These areas of the country maybe could have been = called > cultural deserts 40 years ago, but things have changed. Now the entire = USA > is a cultural desert (not so funny), so the playing field is a lot more > level. If anybody can make sense out of the above paragraph, PLEASE enlighten me. I happen to be VERY fond of the MANY good 19th century organs scattered across the heartland; and yes, there are some good new ones too, which DIDN'T come about as a result of people capitulating to the Spirit of the Age and the digital onslaught. > > As to what we studied in > college/conservatory/whatever, this had precious little to do with what = most > of us played weekly in church. It is common knowledge across the land = that > we were not properly trained for what we were to become. Is it not ever > thus? That's certainly one reason, after 3 years, that I changed my = major to > composition and later music theory. I had to scout up my material, and > pretty soon I knew more "practical" repertory than my teachers (save > one--Benjamin Hadley). > > I don't give half a hoot what Miss Addy > played and how she played it. Ditto all the people I heard as a child. = Most > of them were pretty bad, but somehow they kindled a spark within me. Hmm ... I believe that would be called "market research" today ... *I* give a hoot, because I want to see GOOD, REAL organs built in churches LIKE Miss Addy's, for people LIKE Miss Addy to PLAY. > > Perhaps we're apple-ing and orange-ing = here, > so I'll be Pontius Pilating this discussion. My point is don't put = people in > straitjackets; and cool the smug, omniscient = I-know-what's-right-for-them > jazz. You've experienced life one way but don't force it on others. I'm > merely trying to tell any gullible folks who may be out there that yours = is > but one way to look at a very big subject, which I'm happy to continue > discussing off the list. > > RJL > > firstname.lastname@example.org <<<Let me see if I can remember the order of > service in my mother's church ... it went something like this:>>> > > Spare us, O Lord! From WHAT, precisely? That was the order of service. Probably still is. If you don't like it, tough. They're rural Southern Methodists, not urban California Lutherans. > ><This was the service that Miss Addy played on that 7-stop Estey for = close to half a century. I can TELL you her registrations, because I sat = beside her as a small child.>>> > > So what? Who cares? The POINT, had you the wit to GRASP it, was that seven stops across two manuals and pedal was QUITE adequate for their needs; furthermore, it was more enjoyable to listen to than ANY number of stops on a digital substitute. OK. I'm done. Better things to do with my time. Bud
(back) Subject: Re: small rooms, organs, and speakers-HELP! From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@VASSAR.EDU> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:48:32 -0700 > > > >> >Adding the Carver takes basically care of everything. It has a built = in >> >crossover network that channels only the lows out to the subwoofer = and >the >> >balance to the satelite speakers. > >Can't help but jump in here. We did a 12 note 32' electronic extension = of a >Bourdon. My business partner suggested we take his Carver Sunfire = subwoofer >from his house to the church to try it. Within 10 minutes, it >self-destructed and was not too impressive before it died. Though it was >comical to watch it try to shake itself loose from the moorings we = supplied. >I suppose in a home organ situation the Sunfire might be perfectly = suitable. >It is impressive as a subwoofer to an audiophile stereo system. i'm glad you thought it was funny. It's intersting how Peterson Electromusical tells me they used them and don't know of any failures. They come with a 10 year garantee I believe, I'd be on the phone to Carver.... Also the instructions do say to tie it down.
(back) Subject: Re: small rooms, organs, and speakers-HELP! From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 16:02:16 EDT Dear listers: Subwoofers are nice if you have 32' stops in the pedal. Most of the Allen small two manual organs have perhaps three or four 16' in the pedal but no 32's. The Chapel in question only seats 100, so I doubt if the 32' wave could develop in under 60 feet and the best results require a room over 128 feet in length. I'm thinking in terms of a system 120 series or the lower end MDS. One of the things Josh wanted to do is just squeeze more volume from the organ, and I showed him how to do that. The 16' stops play adequately from the built in speakers or from a couple of monitor sound panals. Judging from what happened last week where a tornado tore the roof off the main church and allowed water onto the pipe organ, he perhaps wants a fall back to hold services in the chapel if the church isn't ready to be used by Sunday. In that case multiple services for sure. I think that is the reality of his thinking and plan. Ron Severin
(back) Subject: Re: one-manual organs From: "jch" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:05:46 -0500 At 07:44 AM 6/21/02 -0700, you wrote: >Bud - THANK YOU - EXACTLY MY FEELINGS AS WELL!!! Bud "Hits the MARK AGAIN!"..... jch
(back) Subject: Re: one-manual organs From: "jch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:07:32 -0500 At 10:13 AM 6/21/02 -0500, you wrote: > Please forgive the rant. > > Bob Lind > Good Shepherd Church > Naperville, IL Bob, The OHS convention is in Chicago next week...GO ..keep and open mind and enjoy!!! jch
(back) Subject: Re: OK, I WILL let it go, since it appears Mr. (Dr.?) Lind can't be civil - DELETE IF NOT INTERESTED From: "pat and ian" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 07:01:33 +0930 Hope my mother-in-law reads this! Ian. >> Perhaps we're apple-ing and orange-ing here, >> so I'll be Pontius Pilating this discussion. My point is don't put = people in >> straitjackets; and cool the smug, omniscient = I-know-what's-right-for-them >> jazz. You've experienced life one way but don't force it on others. I'm >> merely trying to tell any gullible folks who may be out there that = yours is >> but one way to look at a very big subject, which I'm happy to continue >> discussing off the list. >> >> RJL
(back) Subject: Re: small rooms, organs, and speakers-HELP! From: "C. Joseph Nichols" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:16:23 -0500 John: The Carver was securely bolted to the floor (moorings in my original = post). Carver was very gracious and repaired Wayne's Sunfire under warranty. Peterson may use them if they like. If I remember correctly their 32 = flutes are resultants not fundamental. (I like mine better, hehe) C. Joseph Nichols Nichols & Simpson, Inc. www.nicholsandsimpson.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Vanderlee" > i'm glad you thought it was funny. It's = intersting how Peterson > Electromusical tells me they used them and don't know of any > failures. They come with a 10 year garantee I believe, I'd be on the > phone to Carver.... Also the instructions do say to tie it down.
(back) Subject: Favourite performances of Bach From: <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 23:26:00 +0100 Hello, A new thread which should help to expand the mind a little and get us = away from digital v one mnanual irgans! I wonder which organists members of pipechat would choose personally in = the live or recorded performance of Bach's Organ Music? Perhaps on a scale of one to five by preference.However , it is not = helpful simply to say, "I like this or that".....please try to give us = an idea of "Why" you would choose a particular performer. My own list would go something like this:- 1) Ton Koopman.....His early recordings and performances were "over = ornamented" IMHO.....but I do not mean that they were necessarily = inaccurate or stylistically incorrect. They just "got in the way of the = music". Nowadays, Koopman has made the ornamentation a servant TO the music = rather than the MASTER of the music....and I like his thoughtful = approach. Furthermore, he chooses just the right instruments. 2) Michel Chapuis.....such clean sounds, such accurate playing and = fabulous organs such as the Schnitger at Zwolle. 3) Carlo Curley....maybe a surprising choice in view of the above, and = considering the highly romantic, symphonic styling, one which is as far = away from the "pure" approach as it is possible to get. However, Carlo = not only has style, he also has a wonderful sense of high drama. THIS is = where I LEARN something I had never heard or noticed = previously.......hidden moments which the orchestral style brings out. I = would never....ever....play Bach like Carlo Curley does, but there are = moments of his performances of which I take note.....not least the sheer = energy of the music. 4) Francis Jackson (twenty years ago).....if ever an organist = understood Bach, Dr Jackson did.......some of his performances are = etched in my memory. His Eb St Anne was good enough to convert me = totally, and I still remember the leisurely "swagger" of that glorious = Fugue. Bach does not need to be rushed....that was the free lesson he = gave me on hearing him. 5) Simon Preston playing Trio Sonatas....finally, a recording which = eclipses Marie Claire-Alain....perfection. I feel SURE that many will have very different ideas! Regards, Colin Mitchell UK
(back) Subject: Re: Is it pipes vs.digital....not really. From: "Russ Greene" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:33:16 -0500 On 6/21/02 10:50 AM, Douglas A. Campbell wrote: > I'm not saying that this formula would work in EVERY situation, but I > think it would work in MOST situations. I like your formula very much indeed and will be laying the groundwork for our eventual organ replacement. Thanks, Russ Greene
(back) Subject: Re: small rooms, organs, and speakers-HELP! From: <Pologaptommy@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 19:02:50 EDT Ron was RIGHT on the dot.... We plan on moving the Allen organ in the Chapel to McCree Hall at the = other end of the compound, for services till the sanctuary is complete. To do this, we will have to hold three morning services, and they will no doubt, = be extremely full. The Ensemble Choir will sing for the first service, the Genesis Choir for the second, and the full Chancel Choir for the 3rd. = They are also moving the Grand piano out of the Parlor to the Gym, so we will still have the piano in the choir room for practice. The Chancel Grand = had some damage, so it is being repaired also. To sum it all up, we WILL be holding full-sounded services as usual, with that, the organ will have to = do a lot more than it does in the Chapel! But the Sanctuary is 80% restored as of today. We have wonderful, professional people from Dallas working on it, and the new copper roof was = completed Wed. The MAIN reason we are not holding services in the = sanctuary, is because due to the dampness, and then the sudden dryness from the giant = dehumidifiers, the new chancel wide-plank flooring has buckled in on = itself. Thank you all for your input, I'll see what I can do! Josh White FUMC, Graham TX www.fumcgraham.com; FUMC organ pics: www.geocities.com/polo_gap_tommie
(back) Subject: What do we call them "harmonic mixtures?" From: "Karl Moyer" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 19:19:57 -0400 Dear Y'All, I'm good at asking dumb questions, like this: Why do we refers to "harmonic mixtures" as such? Since they are = intended to reinforce the upper register -- and thus the melodic line -- wouldn't = it make more sense to call them "melodic mixtures?" Or is this a shortened version of a longer original term for them, like the word _piano_ is a shortened version of _pianoforte_, that once-new instrument with the marvelous ability to play both soft and loud? It's really dumb, of course, to call it the "soft." Does the term _harmonic mixture_ have such a background? You'd make my day to have me understand the reason for the terminology. Another dumb question: why do the Phillies keep losing so much of the time? Just wondering. Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA
(back) Subject: Re: Organist Recruiting From: "Paul Soulek" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 22:00:40 -0500 To echo two recent posts, I believe that organists need to be WELCOMING others to the bench, not chasing them away. This past week we had Vacation Bible School at my church. My dad was teaching, and went down to the church to prepare during the day. When he was there, he heard someone playing the organ. It ended up being a 9th-grader that was also helping with VBS. My dad told me about this, and asked if we should take the key to the organ. That got me thinking about this subject! How can we expect people to WANT to play the organ if they can't experience it for themselves? Unless people are going to mess with the organ pipes, I really couldn't care less if they would like to "try out" the organ. Our church doesn't have an "open-console", but the key is readily accessible in the bench, which everyone knows about. Adding pipes to our organ added a bit of "organ awareness" to our congregation, and gave me a chance to explain how "real" organs work. If the organist at my church had remembered to lock the organ back in Christmas Eve of 1989, I am sure that I wouldn't be playing the organ today. Even though I was only 4 years old, this gave me a chance to sit down at the organ and try some things out. I loved it. If we want to have organists in the future, we need to take a role in recruiting. Open consoles are a great help, as is just talking to piano students to find out if they are interested in the organ. My church of 225 +/- has two teenagers that are interested in the organ. Unfortunately I found this out AFTER the registration deadline for our area POE, but its good news anyhow. My three cents. Paul in Minnesota "Douglas A. Campbell" wrote: > > Dear List, > > Richard raises some very important points. The propagation of the > species IS a responsibility. I grew up in a church where No ONE was > allowed to touch the organ. Had that policy been different, I believe > that I would BE an organist today. > > When will organists learn that the playing of an instrument doesn't > damage it ? IF every organist on this list actively sought the youth = of > their church and allowed them to use the instrument, how many new > organists would that generate? > On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:36:04 -0500 Richard Jordan <email@example.com> > writes: > > At 11:19 PM 6/20/02 -0700, you wrote: > > >To me, the larger and more important issue is fighting for more > > organ > > >MUSIC in churches (where frequently it is disappearing), NOT > > whether an > > >organ was built by Moller or Allen. > > > > that is a good question, > > how do you get more organ music? > > does it perhaps involve training more organists? > > how many churches are regularly training new organists? > > how many have scholarships to assist with lessons? > > I think the solution begins at the grass roots level. > > I am afraid if we don't get busy, > > the disappearence of organists will lead to even fewer organs > > and even less organ music.
(back) Subject: Re: Digital creativity From: <Chicaleee@aol.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 00:29:16 EDT --part1_f3.1ce4be04.2a45571c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert, I get your drift. I have been playing "Just As I Am" almost every = Sunday for 50 years. There are some hymns that have passed the test of = time no matter how many times they are sung. (Billy Graham thought that one = did) Sunday we did "Change My Heart, O God," for the invitation and everyone thought it was the Benediction and started to leave when it ended. I love = the majestic hymns and would like to see the soldier songs rescued from = the barracks, and open wide the organ for A Might Fortress and/or For All the Saints, as well as bringing back the blood. Lee --part1_f3.1ce4be04.2a45571c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Robert, I get your = drift. I have been playing "Just As I Am" almost every Sunday for 50 = years. There are some hymns that have passed the test of time no = matter how many times they are sung. (Billy Graham thought that one did) = Sunday we did "Change My Heart, O God," for the invitation and = everyone thought it was the Benediction and started to leave when it = ended. I love the majestic hymns and would like to see the soldier = songs rescued from the barracks, and open wide the organ for A Might = Fortress and/or For All the Saints, as well as bringing back the blood. = Lee</FONT></HTML> --part1_f3.1ce4be04.2a45571c_boundary--
(back) Subject: Another Jewel in New York's Crown of Organs From: "Marika E. Buchberger, LRPS" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 04:27:26 -0400 About the new Schantz organ at St. Vincent Ferrer. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/22/arts/music/22ORGA.html?todaysheadlines