PipeChat Digest #2740 - Friday, March 8, 2002
 
RE: LBW
  by "Wayne Grauel" <wayne@eminent-usa.com>
Re: harmonisations
  by <rodney.gisick@verizon.net>
Authorship (LBW)
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
EMAIL Snafu!
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: Lutheran Book of Worship
  by "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
Re: LBW
  by "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
Re: Lutheran Book of Worship
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: fake books for Anglican and RC hymnals .. Thanks
  by "Ron Pearcy" <ronniep@clear.net.nz>
RE: chiming in
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com>
Re: Lutheran Book of Worship
  by "Panning" <jpanning@cal-net.net>
Re: Lutheran Book of Worship
  by "Jim" <bald1@prodigy.net>
Re: chiming in
  by <OrganNYC@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: RE: LBW From: "Wayne Grauel" <wayne@eminent-usa.com> Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 07:21:32 -0500     Mega Ditto's to everyone out there... the LBW truly is a huge musical step towards the dumbing down of lutheran hymnody.   The liturgies make no harmonic or musical sense. Let's just throw some ink on the paper and make the words fit!   Let's put it this way, from day one I have harmonized the liturgies myself and most of the hymns. The editors and contributors should have been required to pass a basic theory course prior to their assignment to the committee. The poor harmonization and "creative accompaniments" on certain pieces in the LBW can leave the congregation at a total loss as to what key they're singing in and where the tune is even going. I think to write hymn tunes and liturgy where the tonal center of the music is a total mystery is bordering total incompetence, or worse yet... being "full of themselves"   I can still remember going to one of the "Dog and Pony Shows" where they were going around and "introducing" the hymnal to churches. I can vividly remember one of the stupid-ass answers I was given to a question that I brought up, while the question now is rather vague. Based on the answer, it had to do with part of the liturgy that they were trying to sell us and it probably had to do with the use of the major chord at the end of a minor A-men, or the use of minor thirds, something like that.... the point was this was so far from what we had been singing and it was a distraction that the music was so sterile...   Their answer was "Oh.... the reason they eliminated that was because that chord isn't in that key...." duuhh!   Fortunately, our congregations were not into "loud boiling test tubes" ..... which you can bet we had to sing at this circus event... Thank God "Shine Jesus Shine" had not hit the charts yet!   Frankly, the only way to play the LBW successfully is to be able to harmonize a hymn tune and forget the book.   I think the biggest abortion in the whole hymnal is "Angels From the Realms of Glory"...... What in the hell were they smoking when they thought that one up!   Wayne Grauel    
(back) Subject: Re: harmonisations From: <rodney.gisick@verizon.net> Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 07:34:10 -0500     > it's a revolting (as they all are) Allen electronic of 2 decks.   Obviously you haven't played the new sampled sound Allen's. I play on an Allen, 3 manual, "Renaissance" model 370, and lots of people can't tell if it's pipe or not. I can play any repertoire with a good reproduction of sound for the period. Yeah, it ain't a new tracker, but it also is light years away from even 10 years ago, let alone the 50's model I played on for a year before we got this one. So, be careful what you're "trashing" until you've heard what's possible NOW.   R  
(back) Subject: Authorship (LBW) From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 09:47:16 -0600   Karl Moyer wrote: > Regarding reharmonizations of hymns in LBW:   <Major snippage>   > 5. The blame-game here against Paul Bunjes is not fully accurate. If = you > are serious about determing who worked over a given hymn in LBW, look at = the > Index to Authors, Composers, and Sources of Hymns (pp. 939 & ff). Hymn > numbers printed in italics indicate those persons. Thus, for example, = the > venerable Catherine Winkworth is represented in LBW by 30 hymns, all of = them > her alteration to earlier versions of the texts: translations, of = course. > :-) But you can see there how many hymns Paul Bunjes altered, and if = you > look up and down the list you can see who else alteraed texts or tunes = that > appear in LBW. Draw your own conclusions, but Bunjes has taken an = unfair > rap in this discussion. My own copy of LBW has each such person's name > hand-written at the hymn itself.   I was told buy someone at some point in the dim dark past that to further camouflage the extent of the work on the Hymnal done by Bunjes, that he adopted at least one, if not two pseudonyms; in addition to penning under his own name!   I really don't have independent confirmation as to whether that is really true or not, but I had no reason to doubt the source of that information, and the fact that the hymns sound so remarkably similar gives further credence to that possibility.   Faithfully, Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME EMAIL mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL  
(back) Subject: EMAIL Snafu! From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 13:36:41 -0600   Dear List:   Sorry to have to waste bandwidth, but I woke up this morning and my EMAIL program decided to "go south" and took out everything in my "INBOX"!   Could Ross Wards please re-send me his EMAIL? Also, if anyone else sent me any comments that I've not responded to, please re-send them to me.   Thanks!   Faithfully,   Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME EMAIL mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL  
(back) Subject: Re: Lutheran Book of Worship From: "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 14:57:56 -0500   A follow-up on this topic:   I just marked my copy of the bulletin -- "the menu" :-) -- as to how we'll do Sunday's hymns and came upon "Jesus, Savior, Pilot Me" in a --truly, now -- beautiful harmonziation by Walter Pelz. However, it's = laid out so as to be sung in unison and the parts are, in my opinion, just hard enough for many of my choir folks that I'll ask them to sing the hymn in unison, rather than struggle with the pitches and the rhythmic = distributions Pelz wrote--and then I'll play the harmony the way we know it for two stanzas and Pelz' harmonization for the final stanza.   In my opinion, we'd have been better served by having the "original," i.e., the commonly-prevailing harmonziation, of this tune in LBW instead = of Pelz' work, lovely though it is.   Pelz, of course, spent many years at a Swedish Lutheran school, = Bethany College in Lindsborg KS. The greater bulk of the re-harmonized hymns = come from persons living int he Mid-West, where Lutherans are the densest.   Cordially,   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA    
(back) Subject: Re: LBW From: "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 15:29:59 -0500   > the LBW truly is a huge musical step towards the dumbing down of lutheran hymnody.   For some of our congregations it has been just the opposite: the first real opportunity to learn rhythmic chorales as such. It also included some excellent, new hymnody: "Lift High the Cross" comes quickly to mind, as does Charles Stanford's marvelous "Engelberg" tune. Being able to teach my parish to sing "Herzlich lieb" has been both challenging and thrilling. Tha= t hymn is so solid, musically and theolgoically, as to be exemplary!! Bach thought it ws pretty good, too and quoted the tuen and stanza 3 at the clos= e of the St. John Passion. Given these few examples, the use of LBW is hardl= y a matter of dumbing down. >=20 > The liturgies make no harmonic or musical sense. Let's just throw some > ink on the paper and make the words fit!   Must we remind each other that Richard Hillert's "This Is the Feast" ha= s been taken into hymns as far divergent as catholic and Mennonite -- and man= y in between, even of "fundamentallist" background? Somebody must be seeing something in some of this liturgy music that makes sense. I do agree, though, that some of the liturgy music is not my cup of tea= , and I have tended to reharmonize much of the Evening Prayer order in the style of Gabriel Faur=E9, which I find far more beautiful for an evening service.=20 (snip)   > Frankly, the only way to play the LBW successfully is to be able to > harmonize a hymn tune and forget the book.   I know many Lutheran congregations whose organists are restricted to playing what is there, as best they are able, and those conregations' use o= f the book is just fine. The above statement is simply not true. >=20 > I think the biggest abortion in the whole hymnal is "Angels From the Real= ms of Glory"...... What in the hell were they smoking when they thought that on= e up!   This re-harmonziation is the work of Paul Manz. Is our correspondent whom I quote willing to make this statement to Manz?   The book is not perfect. But then, I don't think we can have perfectio= n except in spiritual goals, mathematical proofs, and certain baseball games. But despite some things I don't liek about LBW, I think we should be more discreet than the commets to which I respond above.   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA =20    
(back) Subject: Re: Lutheran Book of Worship From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:24:36 EST     --part1_43.7b79f05.29b942a4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 3/7/02 5:15:19 AM !!!First Boot!!!, = reedstop@prodigy.net writes:     > 2) The man is DEAD...can we please let him rest in peace? No matter = what > the opinions of the musical world, he WAS highly revered in the > church....no matter if it was justified or not. I personally enjoyed = being > in one of his final theory classes he taught at River Forest. He was = very > intelligent, even if maybe his designs and harmonizations were = "unusual."   Although Mr. Bunjes is "dead" his legacy lives on. Sadly, dieing does = not undo a person's mistakes and if we are going to learn from them then they should be discussed. To his advantage and to his detriment, Paul Bunjes = was an innovator and therefore is subjected to even greater criticism. As a teacher I would expect that his causing significant mental stirring would bring joy to his heart and a wry smile to his face. That people still discuss his work is proof that he made a significant contribution to the organ and choral worlds of music.   Bruce Cornely < Cremona502@cs.com > with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Visit Howling Acres and meet the Baskerbeagles: Duncan, Miles, Molly & = Dewi < http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 + http://prepaidlegal.com/go/brucecornely >   --part1_43.7b79f05.29b942a4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 3/7/02 5:15:19 AM !!!First Boot!!!, reedstop@prodigy.net writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">2) &nbsp;The man = is DEAD...can we please let him rest in peace? &nbsp;No matter what the = opinions of the musical world, he WAS highly revered in the church....no = matter if it was justified or not. &nbsp;I personally enjoyed being in one = of his final theory classes he taught at River Forest. &nbsp;He was very = intelligent, even if maybe his designs and harmonizations were "unusual." = &nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR>Although Mr. Bunjes is "dead" his legacy lives on. &nbsp;&nbsp;Sadly, = dieing does not undo a person's mistakes and if we are going to learn from = them then they should be discussed. &nbsp;&nbsp;To his advantage and to = his detriment, Paul Bunjes was an innovator and therefore is subjected to = even greater criticism. &nbsp;&nbsp;As a teacher I would expect that his = causing significant mental stirring would bring joy to his heart and a wry = smile to his face. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;That people still discuss his work is = proof that he made a significant contribution to the organ and choral = worlds of music. <BR> <BR> Bruce Cornely &lt; Cremona502@cs.com &gt;<I> </I> <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR>Visit Howling Acres <I>&nbsp;</I>and meet the Baskerbeagles: = &nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly &amp; Dewi <BR>&lt; http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 + = http://prepaidlegal.com/go/brucecornely &nbsp;&gt;</FONT></HTML>   --part1_43.7b79f05.29b942a4_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: fake books for Anglican and RC hymnals .. Thanks From: "Ron Pearcy" <ronniep@clear.net.nz> Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 13:30:41 +0000 (GMT)   On 06 Mar, <quilisma@socal.rr.com> wrote: > No fake book exists for the Episcopal Hymnal 1940; some of the music in > the Episcopal Hymnal 1982 has guitar chords or guitar tablature ... I > forget which. I THINK the accompaniment edition of the Roman Catholic > Worship III Hymnal has guitar chords for some things; certainly Gather > does. But I'm not aware of ANYTHING in fake book format, by which I > presume you mean the melody, the bass line, and chord symbols for ANY of > those books.   > It would be easy enough to CREATE on Finale or Sibelius; no, I'm NOT > volunteering (grin).   > Cheers,   > Bud     Thanks Bud, and also to the many others who commented and proffered help. Shall feed that info through to my friend Ray, who may choose to pursue = one or two of the suggested options.   I really am most grateful. Thank you.   Cheers, Ronnie   -- ----- Ronnie Pearcy <ronniep@clear.net.nz> 17 Donegal Crescent, = Greenswood, Greenmeadows, Napier, New Zealand -------  
(back) Subject: RE: chiming in From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 20:23:44 -0600   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0009_01C1C615.FE805280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I missed the original thread here, but am willing to show my ignorance and put foot in mouth. If I am not mistaken, both the AGO program and the CD Swann recorded that week listed the piece as "Bells of Riverside" by Seth Bingham. -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of MyrtleBeachMusic@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 8:46 PM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: chiming in In a message dated 3/6/02 9:43:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, DudelK@aol.com writes:         Bells of St. Anne de Beaupre,,,,, at Riverside, possibly by Fred Swann during the AGO convention?     Yes, Fred played that at Riverside in ' 96. Does anyone have knowledge of how to get this piece? I've looked for it ever since that concert and have had no luck.   Jeremy Rush Church of the Resurrection Myrtle Beach, SC www.resurrectionsurfside.com   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0009_01C1C615.FE805280 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <html xmlns:o=3D3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =3D xmlns:w=3D3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =3D xmlns=3D3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">   <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Dus-ascii">     <meta name=3D3DProgId content=3D3DWord.Document> <meta name=3D3DGenerator content=3D3D"Microsoft Word 10"> <meta name=3D3DOriginator content=3D3D"Microsoft Word 10"> <link rel=3D3DFile-List href=3D3D"cid:filelist.xml@01C1C615.F0D442E0"> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:DoNotRelyOnCSS/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:SpellingState>Clean</w:SpellingState> <w:GrammarState>Clean</w:GrammarState> <w:DocumentKind>DocumentEmail</w:DocumentKind> <w:EnvelopeVis/> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Footlight MT Light"; 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by Seth Bingham.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D3 color=3D3Dblue = face=3D3DArial><span =3D style=3D3D'font-size: 12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D2 =3D face=3D3DTahoma><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =3D Message-----<br> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =3D pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>On = =3D Behalf Of </span></b>MyrtleBeachMusic@aol.com<br> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, March = =3D 06, 2002 8:46 PM<br> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =3D pipechat@pipechat.org<br> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: chiming =3D in</span></font></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3 =3D face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D2 =3D face=3D3DArial><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>In a message dated 3/6/02 = =3D 9:43:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, DudelK@aol.com writes:<br> <br> <br style=3D3D'mso-special-character:line-break'> <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br =3D style=3D3D'mso-special-character:line-break'> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D2 =3D face=3D3DArial><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Bells of St. Anne de =3D Beaupre,,,,, at Riverside, possibly by Fred Swann <br> during the AGO convention?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D2 =3D face=3D3DArial><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><br> <br> Yes, Fred played that at Riverside in ' 96.&nbsp; Does anyone have =3D knowledge of how to get this piece?&nbsp; I've looked for it ever since that concert = =3D and have had no luck.<br> <br> Jeremy Rush<br> Church of the Resurrection<br> Myrtle Beach, SC<br> www.resurrectionsurfside.com</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>   </div>   </body>   </html>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0009_01C1C615.FE805280--      
(back) Subject: Re: Lutheran Book of Worship From: "Panning" <jpanning@cal-net.net> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 21:41:13 -0500   No mention seems yet to have been made of the two newish hymnals from conservative Lutheran church bodies. The Wisconsin Ev. Lutheran Synod brought out "Christian Worship' in 1993. Opinion seems to be mixed regarding the orders of service, but there seems to be little but praise for the hymns, their selection and harmonizations. The Evangelical Lutheran Synod produced the "Evangelical Lutheran Hymnary" in 1996; it was published by MorningStar. It too has standard four-part harmonizations.   Both seemed to have learned from the earlier ELCA and LC-MS books, to their advantage.   John A. Panning Lake City, Iowa  
(back) Subject: Re: Lutheran Book of Worship From: "Jim" <bald1@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:26:24 -0600   Randy,   When Lutheran Worship was put together the committee tried to improve on = The Lutheran Hymnal. The first thing they tried to do was to include some = hymns that were not in the TLH. The second thing is that they tried to lower those hymns from their original setting in TLH. Finally, it appears as if they tried to make it different from TLH. Unfortunately, most of the = hymns do not sound right. The bass often destroys the melody line, as in = Amazing Grace. "I usually play the version out of the Baptist Hymnal." In their attempt to lower the hymns, they succeeded in getting them too low for = most people.   There are some hymns that are good excellent, A Mighty Fortress, God of = Our Fathers and Thy Strong Word to name a few. However, there are many that need to revert back to the original keys and chords.   Most of those in TLH are written so that one can improv with very little problem.   My two cents worth.   Jim H     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 7:36 AM Subject: Lutheran Book of Worship     > To any Lutheran musicians out there: > What is it with the Lutheran Book of Worship? > > Randy Runyon > Music Director > Zion Lutheran Church > Hamilton, Ohio > runyonr@muohio.edu > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: chiming in From: <OrganNYC@aol.com> Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 00:49:46 EST     --part1_45.13ed4e6f.29b9aafa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Seth Bingham's Bells of Riverside.   I'm scratching my head here, but seem to recall that after Bingham retired =   from Madison Ave. Presbyterian, he lived near Riverside Church and heard = the carillon's quarter hour chime. Hence the piece he wrote.   Just last week or so, I went to Madison Ave. Pres. for Jon Gillock's masterclass on Franck, and read that the original Casavant which Bingham presided over, had 100 or so ranks, mainly 8' with some 16s and 4s. Could =   that have influenced his writings?   Steve in NYC   --part1_45.13ed4e6f.29b9aafa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT COLOR=3D"#030025" SIZE=3D2 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">Seth Bingham's Bells of = Riverside. &nbsp; <BR> <BR>I'm scratching my head here, but seem to recall that after Bingham = retired from Madison Ave. Presbyterian, he lived near Riverside Church and = heard the carillon's quarter hour chime. &nbsp;Hence the piece he wrote. <BR> <BR>Just last week or so, I went to Madison Ave. Pres. for Jon Gillock's = masterclass on Franck, and read that the original Casavant which Bingham = presided over, had 100 or so ranks, mainly 8' with some 16s and 4s. = &nbsp;Could that have influenced his writings? <BR> <BR>Steve in NYC</FONT></HTML>   --part1_45.13ed4e6f.29b9aafa_boundary--