PipeChat Digest #2759 - Sunday, March 17, 2002
 
Re: Rood-organs. etc.
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Estey Pipe Organ info
  by "Nick Grbac" <NickGTV@webtv.net>
Re: The French Connection
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Re: Terminology
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: engaging and disengaging...
  by <MyrtleBeachMusic@aol.com>
Re: the worst organs I ever played
  by <Chicaleee@aol.com>
Re: Engaging and Disengaging
  by <Wurlibird1@aol.com>
cockups
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: cockups
  by "Bob and Jane Hanudel" <hanudel@schoollink.net>
Re: The French Connection
  by "Pat Maimone" <patmai@juno.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Rood-organs. etc. From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 06:48:46 -0600   quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote: > > I've had the same questions for years, but no satisfactory answers ... > > There were some EARLY examples of rood-screen organs where Gt. Open = Diapason I > was in the nave facade, and Gt. Open Diapason II was in the quire facade > (Durham?), but I've never seen any explanation of what they did with the = SWELL > (once it developed); one assumes that the "Chair" organ normally faced = into the > Quire, as it does at King's.   This is probably how the idea of having two Open Diapasons on the Great came about. There were two Principals as well at Bristol Cathedral, where the original facade pipes survive in the present case. Until the nineteenth century the No. 1 and No. 2 Open Diapasons were usually of identical construction, and the only difference in timbre came about when they were used together. As you suggest, the Chair organ did normally face into the Quire on Pulpitum organs, although a few organs (even as early as the seventeenth century) seem to have had an "Inside Choir" within the main case.   The earliest Swells were a development of the old Echo division, which was generally in the French position just behind the music desk. Early swells were of "nag's head" construction rather than the familiar Venetian louvre design of today. There was a frame with slits that lifted up and down to open and close the box. I imagine it faced toward the front (i.e. console), which would mean it would normally have been on the Quire side.   John Speller    
(back) Subject: Estey Pipe Organ info From: "Nick Grbac" <NickGTV@webtv.net> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 06:59:11 -0800 (PST)   Hi:   I was wondering if anyone on the list knows of any books on the Estey Pipe Organ Company--I'm interested in an opus list, or perhaps an idea of their models (I understand they had several pre-designed models churches could choose).   Thanks in advance! Nick Grbac   NickGTV    
(back) Subject: Re: The French Connection From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 11:31:18 -0500   Thanks Pat, I would bet the Gigout would sound stunning in the Old Chapel considering the generous Pedal Division. I have heard that really successful 32' reed stops sound smooth as an old Buick at idle, and the organ I heard on that recording gave me the closest impression of that I have yet heard, either live or recorded. I suppose much of that has to do with the room acoustics. As a wannabe pipe organ voicer, I would love to specialize in the lower compass of foundation stops. Where the upper work seems all about sonic balance, the foundation adds the visceral dimension of feeling as well as hearing. That fascinates me very much, which is why I would like to identify the organ I heard on the recording. Should I ever assume tonal responsibility for an organ, I would try to imitate what I heard last night, and the Gigout would become my test piece.   Cheers Mike   Pat Maimone wrote:   > Dear Mike > Sounds like you are listening to Eugene Gigout's > "Grand Choeur Dialogue" Hope that another > list member will be able to track down l'orgue > du jour. > > Greetings to you and all Pipechatters, > Pat Maimone, > who is looking forward to playing the > Lutheran service at the Old Cadet Chapel, West Point > later this Sunday morning, and producing Bach's 317th > Birthday celebration in the same location. > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Terminology From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 11:53:18 EST     --part1_cc.8417911.29c623fe_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 3/17/02 5:01:52 AM !!!First Boot!!!, david_n_carter@hotmail.com writes:     > My query to the list tonight is: could someone explain, or perhaps point = me > to a website, the definitions of terms such as: chancel, gallery, = narthex, > "west-end", etc. This will help me visualize when these terms are used = in > reference to organ location, etc. >   Basically the terms you encountered are the various parts of a gothic cathedral church building.   Traditionally, Catholic (Roman, Orthodox, and Anglican) are oriented so = that worhipers face East (known as liturgical East). The altar is, therefore, = in the East end. So, from your initial approach you enter the "front door" =   which is in the West End (or back of the church once you're inside!). A gallery is a raised loft which rests on a wall (as opposed to a balcony = which projects out over the floor below without support from beneath).   When you have entered the West Door you are standing in the Narthex (or foyer/entry hall). This room is usually directly beneath the West = Gallery which rests on the walls of the narthex. In many gothic churches the = organ and choir were placed in the West Gallery, leaving the East End to = liturgical momvent.   As you proceed eastward through the narthex doors, you enter the Nave = which is where the congregation sits (so-called from the word Navy referring to = the worshipers as the "soldiers of Christ". In these gothic buildings, if = you "figuratively" turn them up-side down they resemble a ship. More = nautical imagery!   As you move further eastward through the nave (moving down the center = aisle) you come to the "transepts", north on your left and south on your right. =   The building is most likely (although not always) built in cruciform = shape, and the transepts are the "arms" of the cross. The large open space where =   the transepts meet the nave is called the "crossing." At this point, = there are three steps which raise the floor to the level of the Chancel, which = is where the choir and clergy sit. Often the chancel is divided into further =   sections designated according to who occupies the space: Choir for the = area where the choir sits (divided into two groups facing each other, separated = by the aisle), and the Presbytery where the clergy sit. In the gothic buildings there was often times a screen to separate the Nave from the Chancel because the cathedral was the town's center of activity and the = noise interferred with the daily services carried on by the monastic residents. =   The screen was called a "rood" screen because above it was a "rood" or crucifixion scene.   At the East end of the Chancel is the Sanctuary, separated from the = Chancel by the communion rail. The Sanctuary is where the altar is located and = is the most holy place in the building. (Sanctuary has since become a = generic name for a church building in modern times, mainly used by Methodists and Presbyterians, Baptists and I believe LDS (if memory serves), and others = use the secular "auditorium."   Very likely, if you do some searching (and I recommend the Washington National Cathedral site http://www.cathedral.org/cathedral ) you will = find excellent diagrams of the building which explains in more detail the wonderful symbolism.   May favorite symbolism which is present at Washington Cathedral is the = slight angling of the East End of the building from the transepts slightly to the =   left. This is done for two reasons: one is to move the focal point of = the building from "dead center" causing it to appear more prominent visually; secondly this is used as symbolism for the sagging head of Christ on the cross.   I hope this has been of some help to you, and that you enjoy the site at Washington Cathedral.     Bruce Cornely < Cremona502@cs.com > with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Visit Howling Acres and meet the Baskerbeagles: Duncan, Miles, Molly & = Dewi < http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 + http://prepaidlegal.com/go/brucecornely >   --part1_cc.8417911.29c623fe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 3/17/02 5:01:52 AM !!!First Boot!!!, david_n_carter@hotmail.com writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">My query to the = list tonight is: could someone explain, or perhaps point me <BR>to a website, the definitions of terms such as: chancel, gallery, = narthex, <BR>"west-end", etc. This will help me visualize when these terms are used = in <BR>reference to organ location, etc. <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>Basically the terms you encountered are the various parts of a gothic = cathedral church building. <BR> <BR>Traditionally, Catholic (Roman, Orthodox, and Anglican) are oriented = so that worhipers face East (known as liturgical East). &nbsp;&nbsp;The = altar is, therefore, in the East end. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;So, from your = initial approach you enter the "front door" which is in the West End (or = back of the church once you're inside!). &nbsp;&nbsp;A gallery is a raised = loft which rests on a wall (as opposed to a balcony which projects out = over the floor below without support from beneath). &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR> <BR>When you have entered the West Door you are standing in the Narthex = (or foyer/entry hall). &nbsp;&nbsp;This room is usually directly beneath = the West Gallery which rests on the walls of the narthex. &nbsp;&nbsp;In = many gothic churches the organ and choir were placed in the West Gallery, = leaving the East End to liturgical momvent. <BR> <BR>As you proceed eastward through the narthex doors, you enter the Nave = which is where the congregation sits (so-called from the word Navy = referring to the worshipers as the "soldiers of Christ". = &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;In these gothic buildings, if you "figuratively" turn = them up-side down they resemble a ship. &nbsp;&nbsp;More nautical imagery! <BR> <BR>As you move further eastward through the nave (moving down the center = aisle) you come to the "transepts", north on your left and south on your = right. &nbsp;&nbsp;The building is most likely (although not always) built = in cruciform shape, and the transepts are the "arms" of the cross. = &nbsp;The large open space where the transepts meet the nave is called the = "crossing." &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;At this point, there are three steps which = raise the floor to the level of the Chancel, which is where the choir and = clergy sit. &nbsp;Often the chancel is divided into further sections = designated according to who occupies the space: &nbsp;Choir for the area = where the choir sits (divided into two groups facing each other, separated = by the aisle), and the Presbytery where the clergy sit. = &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;In the gothic buildings there was often times a screen = to separate the Nave from the Chancel because the cathedral was the town's = center of activity and the noise interferred with the daily services <BR> <BR>At the East end of the Chancel is the Sanctuary, separated from the = Chancel by the communion rail. &nbsp;&nbsp;The Sanctuary is where the = altar is located and is the most holy place in the building. = &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(Sanctuary has since become a generic name for a church = building in modern times, mainly used by Methodists and Presbyterians, = Baptists and I believe LDS (if memory serves), and others use the secular = "auditorium." <BR> <BR>Very likely, if you do some searching (and I recommend the Washington = National Cathedral site http://www.cathedral.org/cathedral ) you will = find excellent diagrams of the building which explains in more detail the = wonderful symbolism. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR> <BR>May favorite symbolism which is present at Washington Cathedral is the slight angling of the East End of the = building from the transepts slightly to the left. &nbsp;This is done for = two reasons: &nbsp;one is to move the focal point of the building from = "dead center" causing it to appear more prominent visually; secondly this = is used as symbolism for the sagging head of Christ on the cross. &nbsp; <BR> <BR>I hope this has been of some help to you, and that you enjoy the site = at Washington Cathedral. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Bruce Cornely &lt; Cremona502@cs.com &gt;<I> </I> <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR>Visit Howling Acres <I>&nbsp;</I>and meet the Baskerbeagles: = &nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly &amp; Dewi <BR>&lt; http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 + = http://prepaidlegal.com/go/brucecornely &nbsp;&gt;</FONT></HTML>   --part1_cc.8417911.29c623fe_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: engaging and disengaging... From: <MyrtleBeachMusic@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 13:35:23 EST     --part1_16f.a71a405.29c63beb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 3/17/02 4:43:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, flcg1018@mails.fju.edu.tw writes:     > Yes, it is not right for such things to happen, but sometimes it seems > like all we can do is to "roll with the punches..." > > Have such mixups happened very often in the past? >   While I see the angle of another responder....saying that sometimes you = must just step back and forfeit your fee in the name of future gigs, reputation = in the community, or whatever, just doesn't seem correct. Churches, = MINISTERS in particular, know very well that most people will, by default, take the "humble" way out if asked directly , out of respect. The Rector at my = church manipulates well because he knows he can. I don't see the organist = situation as being any different. You were booked, it's not your fault the head musician didn't have her head on straight.   Another example for your thoughts: my predecessor, for the dedication of = our new church campus, booked TWO brass sextets by mistake. He had booked the =   first group 1 1/2 years in advance and had apparently forgot about it. = Guess what, both groups showed up that day. That was a $3,000.00 mistake. I = still hear people talk about it now and then.   The bottom line: the church is a business, and you are an independent contractor selling your time, skill, and education. Send them a bill.   Jeremy Rush Church of the Resurrection Myrtle Beach, SC   --part1_16f.a71a405.29c63beb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/17/02 4:43:12 AM Eastern = Standard Time, flcg1018@mails.fju.edu.tw writes:<BR> <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Yes, it is not = right for such things to happen, but sometimes it seems<BR> like all we can do is to "roll with the punches..."<BR> <BR> Have such mixups happened very often in the past?<BR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> While I see the angle of another responder....saying that sometimes you = must just step back and forfeit your fee in the name of future gigs, = reputation in the community, or whatever, just doesn't seem correct.&nbsp; = Churches, MINISTERS in particular, know very well that most people will, = by default, take the "humble" way out if asked directly , out of = respect.&nbsp; The Rector at my church manipulates well because he knows = he can.&nbsp; I don't see the organist situation as being any = different.&nbsp; You were booked, it's not your fault the head musician = didn't have her head on straight.<BR> <BR> Another example for your thoughts: my predecessor, for the dedication of = our new church campus, booked TWO brass sextets by mistake.&nbsp; He had = booked the first group 1 1/2 years in advance and had apparently forgot = about it.&nbsp; Guess what, both groups showed up that day.&nbsp; That was = a $3,000.00 mistake.&nbsp; I still hear people talk about it now and = then.<BR> <BR> The bottom line: the church is a business, and you are an independent = contractor selling your time, skill, and education.&nbsp; Send them a = bill.&nbsp; <BR> <BR> Jeremy Rush<BR> Church of the Resurrection<BR> Myrtle Beach, SC</FONT></HTML>   --part1_16f.a71a405.29c63beb_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: the worst organs I ever played From: <Chicaleee@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:44:09 EST     --part1_191.3e6311b.29c64c09_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I think the very worse was a 1 manual Estey Reed organ somewhere in El = Paso where I played for a funeral in 1956. Every stop sound just alike. No = sound would have been better.   The next was a 9 rank Moeller without a swell pedal or crescendo pedal. = I'll not tell where. It is still in action and the congregation thinks it is wonderful.   Lee   --part1_191.3e6311b.29c64c09_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT COLOR=3D"#000040" SIZE=3D2>I = think the very worse was a 1 manual Estey Reed organ somewhere in El Paso = where I played for a funeral in 1956.&nbsp; Every stop sound just = alike.&nbsp; No sound would have been better.<BR> <BR> The next was a 9 rank Moeller without a swell pedal or crescendo pedal. = I'll not tell where.&nbsp; It is still in action and the congregation = thinks it is wonderful.<BR> <BR> Lee</FONT></HTML>   --part1_191.3e6311b.29c64c09_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Engaging and Disengaging From: <Wurlibird1@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:12:54 EST   Hi Merry,   In a perfect world, the person who caused this mess should see that you = are paid your fee. If the church refuses, he/she should send you a personal check. You did nothing but act in good faith on a request for your = services on a specific date. As the offer was extended and you agreed to it, that = is a binding verbal contract and is enforcable should you choose to push it. =   Note, I said in a perfect world.   As I have never experienced your plight in this regard, I cannot do more = than to encourage you to let your conscience guide you on the matter. I have, = in my forty-four years on the bench seen two ministers contracted for a = funeral when only one was to have provided services. I have also seen on one occasion a minister not show up for a funeral he was to have conducted. There was a wedding I was to play for which the minister refused to = perform after the rehearsal when there arose a sticky theological point in the service order. He simply said "get another preacher." They did.   The biggest faux pas occurred when what could best be described as a = "society wedding'" (read=3Dvery lavish) had to be moved at the last moment. The = Friday night rehersal was inconvenienced by the contract crew stripping and = waxing the aisles and cleaning the carpet in the chancel area. Thus the Baptist physician/deacon's daughter was married in a nearby Methodist church. Mistakes do happen but heads rolled over that one.   I could write a book. Bet you could too. Roll with the punches, Merry. = Its the only way to remain sane in this squirrelly world.   Best wishes, Jim Pitts    
(back) Subject: cockups From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 08:59:09 +1200   I know this is pipechat, but as a clergyman I should add three fabulous stories, if you will bear with me. FIRST I was taking a wedding in my first parish in the church which I'd designed and physically helped build a fair bit of. Superlative acoustics. Ceramic-tiled floor, very hard. Just as the groom was putting the ring on the bride's finger he dropped it and it went ping-ping-ping-ping-ping as = it bounced right across the floor. "F*ck!!!!!!!" he exclaimed, as loud as = that. OK, frozen silence as he dropped to his knees and crawled around trying to find the ring. One person sniggered, then the whole congregation totally broke up. Five minutes before I could begin the vows again. And all = recorded on video. TWO At a funeral on an appallingly wet day on a 300-yard slow walk from the hearse to the graveside. This was in 1977 when for a period they were = trying out cardboard-composite coffins. The inevitable: the box got wet, the body dropped out Plop onto the ground. And the small grandson with his parents just behind the coffin asked, "Mummy, why has Grandad got his stripey pyjamas on?" And to cap it off, they had to carry the old boy to the graveside and drop him in. THREE Two miles from a former parish of mine is Old St Paul's, a huge wooden Gothic church that used to be Wellington Cathedral. Scene 1, a wedding = about to begin. Scene 2, 20 minutes later everybody there but the clergyman and organist. Scene 3, a phonecall to me as someone nearby who might help out. Scene 4, Ross Wards arrives 12 minutes later in cassock and surplice over shorts, gardening shirt and old sandals, takes the wedding and plays for = it. Scene 5, the people booked to do the duties arrive as everyone is leaving the church, having finally remembered to come. Scene 6, the clergyman confronts the father of the bride saying, "I have something to say to = you." The father-of-the-bride screams fortississississimo at the clergyman so everyone can here, "Not before I say one thing to you, F*CK *FF." Scene 7, = I collect a pile of money as clergyman's AND organist's fees from the = grateful family.   Sorry about the language, but these are three treasured memories. Ross (in New Zealand)      
(back) Subject: Re: cockups From: "Bob and Jane Hanudel" <hanudel@schoollink.net> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:10:43 -0500   Cool...............................! Thanks for some funny stories! Well written, I might add.......... J.Hanudel, North Carolina, = USA       ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> To: <PipeChat@pipechat.org> Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 3:59 PM Subject: cockups     > I know this is pipechat, but as a clergyman I should add three fabulous > stories, if you will bear with me. > FIRST > I was taking a wedding in my first parish in the church which I'd = designed > and physically helped build a fair bit of. Superlative acoustics. > Ceramic-tiled floor, very hard. Just as the groom was putting the ring = on > the bride's finger he dropped it and it went ping-ping-ping-ping-ping as it > bounced right across the floor. "F*ck!!!!!!!" he exclaimed, as loud as that. > OK, frozen silence as he dropped to his knees and crawled around trying = to > find the ring. One person sniggered, then the whole congregation totally > broke up. Five minutes before I could begin the vows again. And all recorded > on video. > TWO > At a funeral on an appallingly wet day on a 300-yard slow walk from the > hearse to the graveside. This was in 1977 when for a period they were trying > out cardboard-composite coffins. The inevitable: the box got wet, the = body > dropped out Plop onto the ground. And the small grandson with his = parents > just behind the coffin asked, "Mummy, why has Grandad got his stripey > pyjamas on?" > And to cap it off, they had to carry the old boy to the graveside and = drop > him in. > THREE > Two miles from a former parish of mine is Old St Paul's, a huge wooden > Gothic church that used to be Wellington Cathedral. Scene 1, a wedding about > to begin. Scene 2, 20 minutes later everybody there but the clergyman = and > organist. Scene 3, a phonecall to me as someone nearby who might help = out. > Scene 4, Ross Wards arrives 12 minutes later in cassock and surplice = over > shorts, gardening shirt and old sandals, takes the wedding and plays for it. > Scene 5, the people booked to do the duties arrive as everyone is = leaving > the church, having finally remembered to come. Scene 6, the clergyman > confronts the father of the bride saying, "I have something to say to you." > The father-of-the-bride screams fortississississimo at the clergyman so > everyone can here, "Not before I say one thing to you, F*CK *FF." Scene = 7, I > collect a pile of money as clergyman's AND organist's fees from the grateful > family. > > Sorry about the language, but these are three treasured memories. > Ross (in New Zealand) > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: The French Connection From: "Pat Maimone" <patmai@juno.com> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 17:03:33 -0500   Dear Mike, Among other things, Mike Gettelman mike3247@earthlink.net wrote: > I would bet the Gigout would sound stunning in the Old Chapel > considering the generous Pedal Division. I have heard that really > successful 32' reed stops sound smooth as an old Buick at idle,   > As a wannabe pipe organ voicer, I would love to specialize in > the lower compass of foundation stops. Where the upper work >seems all about sonic balance, the foundation adds the visceral >dimension of feeling as well as hearing. That fascinates me <>, >which is why I would like to identify the organ I heard on the recording. Hmm.. Evidently I did not make myself _perfectly clear_ ;-)   The _Old_ Cadet Chapel at West Point, NY, was built in 1836-37 and was moved stone by stone from its former location near the USMA Library to its current place in the cemetery. The Lutheran Congregation worships in the Georgian architecture(d) _Old_ Cadet Chapel at 10:30 AM each Sunday; numerous individual and class memorial services are held there, as well as a few weddings. The (newer) Cadet Chapel was built in 1910 and resembles a Gothic cathedral.   Pat Maimone   ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.