PipeChat Digest #2780 - Tuesday, March 26, 2002
 
Re: hymns and the clergy
  by <MyrtleBeachMusic@aol.com>
Re: hymns and the clergy
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed3036@yahoo.com>
Re: Hymns and Clergy
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed3036@yahoo.com>
Re: The going rank rate?
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: The going rank rate?
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
Re: hymns and the clergy
  by "Stephen Ohmer" <knopfregal@yahoo.com>
Re: hymns and the clergy
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Re: The going rank rate?
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Re: SOMEWHAT OFF-TOPIC: singing general hymns for feasts
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed3036@yahoo.com>
Re: The going rank rate?
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: The going rank rate?
  by <PEsch8@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: hymns and the clergy From: <MyrtleBeachMusic@aol.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 18:38:33 EST     --part1_146.bcc4402.29d26079_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en   In a message dated 3/26/02 12:43:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,=3D20 rggreene2@shaw.ca writes:     > On 3/25/02 9:16 PM, MyrtleBeachMusic@aol.com wrote: >=3D20 > >> The rector also has the authority to dictate what fertilizer is used = on=3D =3D20 >> the church lawn, but seeing as the rector's profession is NOT lawn = care,=3D20 >> it is left to a professional in that field. =3D20 >>=3D20 >> -- Only if the rector decides that it will be delegated to a = professional=3D =3D20 >> in that field. >>=3D20 >> What's different about music? Unless the rector has a music degree or = th=3D e=3D20 >> eqivalent, I don't care what "Canon Law" says, you hire professionals = to=3D20 >> do what they do in their field of expertise. =3D20 >>=3D20 >> -- Only if the rector decides to delegate to a music professional. >>=3D20 >> He preaches and waves his hands....the musician plays and plans music. = =3D20 >> Why is this so hard to grasp? >>=3D20 >> -- You don=3DE2=3D80=3D99t seem to grasp that because of Canon Law, the = rector=3D20=3D gets his=3D20 >> way in the area of music, period. If he is sensible and delegates = that=3D20 >> responsibility to a music professional, that=3DE2=3D80=3D99s great. If = he insis=3D ts on his=3D20 >> right to dominate music in his parish, you lose! Thanks for = coming...=3D20 >> drive through. >=3D20   And if ANY congregation is = stupid/uneducated/uninformed/uninterested/passive=3D =3D20 enough to let these things slide, then they deserve what they = get....a=3D20 micromanaged corporation that inspires nobody and gets nothing done.   A generalization and a bit strong, I know, but I cannot fathom ANY = church=3D20 that would allow their Rector to be put on such a pedestal that he could = be=3D20 equated with Fidel Castro.   Again, I don't give a flying hoot what canon law says (nor do most = people=3D20 except the bishops....see this month's issue of The Living Church = which=3D20 confirms that most congregations have no interest whatsoever in what = the=3D20 national church has to say on anything), it takes everybody doing their = part=3D =3D20 for a church to grow and be effective. One man as the 'be all and end = all'=3D20 doesn't get the church very far, if anywhere. Again, consider Cuba and = draw=3D =3D20 the appropriate parallels.   My 29 1/2 % (added to my tithe of 10% contributed above)   Jeremy Rush Who works in a ridiculously fast growing parish where, I still = maintain,=3D20 things are run the way they should be.   --part1_146.bcc4402.29d26079_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D2 = FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D =3D3D"Arial" LANG=3D3D"0">In a message dated 3/26/02 12:43:46 PM Eastern = Standar=3D d Time, rggreene2@shaw.ca writes:<BR> <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D3DCITE style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT=3D : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">On 3/25/02 9:16 PM, = MyrtleBeach=3D Music@aol.com wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D3DCITE style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT=3D : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The rector also has the = authori=3D ty to dictate what fertilizer is used on the church lawn, but seeing as = the=3D20=3D rector's profession is NOT lawn care, it is left to a professional in that = f=3D ield.&nbsp; <BR> <BR> -- Only if the rector decides that it will be delegated to a professional = in=3D that field.<BR> <BR> What's different about music?&nbsp; Unless the rector has a music degree = or=3D20=3D the eqivalent, I don't care what "Canon Law" says, you hire professionals = to=3D do what they do in their field of expertise.&nbsp; <BR> <BR> -- Only if the rector decides to delegate to a music professional.<BR> <BR> He preaches and waves his hands....the musician plays and plans = music.&nbsp;=3D Why is this so hard to grasp?<BR> <BR> -- You don=3DE2=3D80=3D99t seem to grasp that because of Canon Law, the = rector get=3D s his way in the area of music, period. If he is sensible and delegates that=3D responsibility to a music professional, that=3DE2=3D80=3D99s great. If he = insists=3D on his right to dominate music in his parish, you lose! Thanks for = coming..=3D .. drive through.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> And if ANY congregation is = stupid/uneducated/uninformed/uninterested/passive=3D enough to let these things slide, then they deserve what they get....a = micr=3D omanaged corporation that inspires nobody and gets nothing done.<BR> <BR> A generalization and a bit strong, I know, but I cannot fathom ANY church = th=3D at would allow their Rector to be put on such a pedestal that he could be = eq=3D uated with Fidel Castro.<BR> <BR> Again, I don't give a flying hoot what canon law says (nor do most people = ex=3D cept the bishops....see this month's issue of The Living Church which = confir=3D ms that most congregations have no interest whatsoever in what the = national=3D20=3D church has to say on anything), it takes everybody doing their part for a = ch=3D urch to grow and be effective.&nbsp; One man as the 'be all and end all' = doe=3D sn't get the church very far, if anywhere.&nbsp; Again, consider Cuba and = dr=3D aw the appropriate parallels.<BR> <BR> My 29 1/2 % (added to my tithe of 10% contributed above)<BR> <BR> Jeremy Rush<BR> Who works in a ridiculously fast growing parish where, I still maintain, = thi=3D ngs are run the way they should be.<BR> </FONT></HTML> --part1_146.bcc4402.29d26079_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: hymns and the clergy From: "Alan Freed" <afreed3036@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:40:47 -0800 (PST)   None of my Lutheran > musician friends pick their own > hymns. Llanfair is a wonderful hymn, but it is not > traditional/usual Easter > hymn fare. Easter Day is the one day a year that > people get to sing > several of their favorite hymns. if musicians > don't like it, TOUGH! I > was taught early on not to bully the congregations I > served into substituting > my favorites for theirs; Christmas Eve/Day and > Easter Day are just not > places to change things. There are 50 other > Sunday to "grow" musically. > I agree with ou more than it sounds like, Bruce. I've known a fair number of Lutheran musicians who had the confidence sufficiaently of the pastor that they could "pick" all the hymns. Out of diplomacy, it was usually subject to Pastor's veto or approval--and I think that"s the ideal, short of their picking them together (which is what we do now). Often, one or the other has to PERSUADE the other of the wisdom of his/her choice. But it works.   And it's always (I think) a pleasant and friendly collegiality.   Alan      
(back) Subject: Re: Hymns and Clergy From: "Alan Freed" <afreed3036@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:45:54 -0800 (PST)   --- CdyVanpool@aol.com wrote: > > I agree with Bruce on this one. Give them the hymns > they know and love on > these special days of the church.     > We talk about tradition, on this list, all the time, > give em a break and let > them sing the hymns that they know and love on > Easter and other special > Sundays. There are other Sundays we can try new > things. > > My 2 cents...... >   Sure, Cdy. You're right. And if that differs from any previous opinion I've expressed, I hereby change my mind.   I even feel that way myself.   Alan   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards=AE http://movies.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: The going rank rate? From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:09:21 EST   The going rate per rank? Asking that question on this list will get you nowhere, especially for a rebuild. The average price of a 2' Doublette or a 16' Montre? It doesn't even "all work out in the wash." You know who the organbuilders are in your area, so get some serious conferences, proposals, and bids started, and don't give builders = unrealistic expectations about the authorized budget. Another tip: make sure the church has raised all of the money before signing a contract. This sounds obvious, but plenty of churches default = on organbuilding contracts. Sebastian  
(back) Subject: Re: The going rank rate? From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:36:31 EST     --part1_6a.1d70e49e.29d26e0f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 3/26/2002 5:49:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, = Oboe32@aol.com writes:     > The instrument is 14 ranks, 6 of which are mixtures, so that doesn't = leave > much room for imagination! We are going to have to do something soon, = and > I'm interested in what the going rate on ranks is. The church needs to = add > about 10 ranks to this thing to make it decent, at least! > I'm also interested in builders in the NJ area. Any thoughts... >   Any thoughts indeed... yes I have a few...   The "rate per rank" is a very arbitrary number that will vary GREATLY from =   builder to builder, and the dollar figure will reflect to only a limited degree the quality of workmanship that you will recieve for the dollar(s) spent.   Since we don't have much information at hand to judge what the present = organ is comprised of, it is hard to comment on what we think is needed in the = way of 'improvements", tho there would doubtless be LOTS of suggestions from = the list as to what they would like to see added to the existing instrument.   I would recomment that your first course of action would be to take the = time to define as exactly as possible the role that you wish the organ to play (i.e. Congregation hymn accompaniment, choir anthem accompaniment, = recitals, etc, etc.) taking into consideration the musical traditions of your denomination, style of worship, future growth of the music program and so = on   Next, define how the present organ MEETS those requirements (start on a positive footing here)   Then define how the organ could be refined/improved to meet the stated = goals you have already listed previously.   Consult several organbuilders for their input... examine their work...     Well, that will get you started in the right direction. hope this helps.   Rick in VA   --part1_6a.1d70e49e.29d26e0f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 3/26/2002 5:49:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, Oboe32@aol.com writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The instrument is = 14 ranks, 6 of which are mixtures, so that doesn't leave much room for = imagination! We are going to have to do something soon, and I'm interested = in what the going rate on ranks is. The church needs to add about 10 ranks = to this thing to make it decent, at least! <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I'm also interested in builders in the = NJ area. Any thoughts... <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR>Any thoughts indeed... yes I have a few... <BR> <BR>The "rate per rank" is a very arbitrary number that will vary GREATLY = from builder to builder, and the dollar figure will reflect to only a = limited degree the quality of workmanship that you will recieve for the = dollar(s) spent. <BR> <BR>Since we don't have much information at hand to judge what the present = organ is comprised of, it is hard to comment on what we think is needed in = the way of 'improvements", tho there would doubtless be LOTS of = suggestions from the list as to what they would like to see added to the = existing instrument. <BR> <BR>I would recomment that your first course of action would be to take = the time to define as exactly as possible the role that you wish the organ = to play (i.e. Congregation hymn accompaniment, choir anthem accompaniment, = recitals, etc, etc.) taking into consideration the musical traditions of = your denomination, style of worship, future growth of the music program = and so on <BR> <BR>Next, define how the present organ MEETS those requirements (start on = a positive footing here) <BR> <BR>Then define how the organ could be refined/improved to meet the stated = goals you have already listed previously. <BR> <BR>Consult several organbuilders for their input... examine their work... = &nbsp; <BR> <BR> <BR>Well, that will get you started in the right direction. <BR>hope this helps. <BR> <BR>Rick in VA</FONT></HTML>   --part1_6a.1d70e49e.29d26e0f_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: hymns and the clergy From: "Stephen Ohmer" <knopfregal@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:47:00 -0800 (PST)     Bruce saith: (?) > None of my Lutheran > > musician friends pick their own > > hymns.   Wow! All the years I was in the LCMS I never thought about the Pastor choosing the music - any of it. That was my prerogative and responsibility as the minister of music or cantor. Of course, I always informed the pastors well in advance of my plans, and often times asked for their input.   And, on some of the really tough Sundays when it was difficult to find a suitable hymn for a particular scripture, I usually went grovelling to the pastor's study, to get an insight on the coming sermon (I'd even sneak a peak if he happened to NOT be around - but then I'd fess up. Snivelling weenie that I could be....)   Steve Ohmer       > I agree with ou more than it sounds like, > Bruce. I've > known a fair number of Lutheran musicians who > had the > confidence sufficiaently of the pastor that > they could > "pick" all the hymns. Out of diplomacy, it was > usually subject to Pastor's veto or > approval--and I > think that"s the ideal, short of their picking > them > together (which is what we do now). Often, one > or the > other has to PERSUADE the other of the wisdom > of > his/her choice. But it works. > > And it's always (I think) a pleasant and > friendly > collegiality. > > Alan > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards=AE http://movies.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: hymns and the clergy From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:00:52 -0600   ----- Original Message ----- From: Chicaleee@aol.com To: pipechat@pipechat.org Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 11:10 PM Subject: Re: hymns and the clergy     >Mike, did she tell him what happened to the money >changers in the = Temple? Lee   As I recall, not a great deal did happen to them personally, though they = did have their tables overturned. This was at the beginning of Jesus' = ministry according to John, and at the end according to Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Presumably, however, the money changers went out of business when the = Temple was destroyed in 70 C.E.   John Speller      
(back) Subject: Re: The going rank rate? From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:21:10 -0600     ----- Original Message ----- From: Oboe32@aol.com To: Pipechat@pipechat.org Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 4:48 PM Subject: The going rank rate?     >We are going to have to do something soon, and I'm >interested in what = the going rate on ranks is.   It depends on the rank concerned, but for an average rank anything from around $9,500 to $29,000 depending on the builder you choose. A full = length 32' will cost several times that, while a small rank like a 1.1.3' Larigot will not cost nearly as much.   John Speller        
(back) Subject: Re: SOMEWHAT OFF-TOPIC: singing general hymns for feasts From: "Alan Freed" <afreed3036@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:31:42 -0800 (PST)   Oh, Bruce, come on. You're right. But we're still human. If I had a dawg I'm sure I'd pester him with my repetitous protestations of affection--as I already to to both my cat and to a human who need not be identified. They put up with it. And it satisfies aneed in me.   Alan   --- Cremona502@cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/26/02 3:28:56 PM !!!First > Boot!!!, quilisma@socal.rr.com > writes: > > > > I'm always puzzled when you bring this up, Bruce > ... it has ALWAYS been the > > Anglican tradition to sing seasonal hymns / hymns > related to the Readings > > ... high-church, broad-church, low-church ... > doesn't matter. Cheers, > > > > Not to the absurd point to which we seem to have > arrived, so that all of the > hymns say the same dang thing > overandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandov= ero > > verandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandove= rov > > erandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandover= ove > > randoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandovero= ver > > andoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoverov= era > > ndoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandover > > until I want to scream OK DAMMIT I GET THE POINT CAN > WE MOVE ON!!!! > > There is so much more to the resurrection message > than "He is Risen"... > there is why, how it effects our lives, how we share > this with others, our > praise to God for this great sacrificial gift. If > your going to sing the > same words > overandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandov= ero > > verandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandoveroverandover > why do you need more > hymns? Just sing the same > ones...overandoveroverandoveroverandover.. > > Bruce Cornely < Cremona502@cs.com > > with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ > ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" > Visit Howling Acres and meet the Baskerbeagles: > Duncan, Miles, Molly & Dewi > < http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 + > http://prepaidlegal.com/go/brucecornely > >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards=AE http://movies.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: The going rank rate? From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 21:02:52 EST   Dear List:   The going rate per rank depends upon the content of the instrument. A 2' Octavin is not $20,000. Having said that, It depends on how many full lenght 8' and 16' stops are included in the specification, along with Stopped registers, reeds, Mixtures and mutations. The smaller ranks offset the cost of the larger pipes. Three years ago, I was quoted a price of $17,500 for the 16' octave of the wooden Bourdon 12 pipes and chest. A 32 or 44 note set would be considerably higher. This is for new work. If there is an organ case, that adds to the price. A = chambered organ is a lot less expensive. A full length 16' Principal or Violone = could run double or $35,000. So the going rate is the average of all the total costs of pipes, chests, console, cases, winding, blowers, windtrunking etc. and installation and voicing costs. Let's just say for round figures a 54 rank organ costs $960,000 to build divide by 54 you come out with a rank average of....$17,777.78. That in a nutshell is how it's figured = out.   Let's say the 54 rank organ contains two real 32' stops and prices out to $1,200,000. that's $1,200,000 divided by 54 or $25,185.18   As you can see those big registers really add up quick, so the rank average would be much higher.   I hope that answers the question,   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: The going rank rate? From: <PEsch8@aol.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 21:43:36 EST     --part1_9.25697df3.29d28bd8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Hi Pete, Good luck with your new position. We just had Steven Russell in Cambridgeport Vt. build our new pipe organ. It has been in about a year = and I love it. He is a Westminster Graduate too. If you want to visit our church, we are in Melville, Long Island. He has a few instruments in our = area and he might be able to help you with your rebuild. Paul Eschenauer St. Elizabeth Church, Melville, NY.   --part1_9.25697df3.29d28bd8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000ff" SIZE=3D2 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana Ref" LANG=3D"0">Hi Pete,<BR> Good luck with your new position.&nbsp; We just had Steven Russell in = Cambridgeport Vt. build our new pipe organ.&nbsp; It has been in about a = year and I love it.&nbsp; He is a Westminster Graduate too.&nbsp; If you = want to visit our church, we are in Melville, Long Island. He has a few = instruments in our area and he might be able to help you with your = rebuild. <BR> Paul Eschenauer<BR> St. Elizabeth Church, <BR> Melville, NY.</FONT></HTML>   --part1_9.25697df3.29d28bd8_boundary--