PipeChat Digest #3222 - Monday, November 11, 2002
 
RE: Defending NYC Organists
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
Re: Widor Toccata
  by "John Mackey" <johnmackey@mindspring.com>
Widor's Toccata
  by <Wuxuzusu@aol.com>
RE: Widor Toccata tempi
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
RE: Reger
  by <cmys13085@blueyonder.co.uk>
Re: Alec Wyton
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Alec Wyton
  by "John Mackey" <johnmackey@mindspring.com>
RE: Widor Toccata
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
OT-ish:  Experiences with mysheetmusic.com?
  by "Adrianne Schutt" <maybe@pipcom.com>
Re: Alec Wyton
  by <MFoxy9795@aol.com>
RE: Alec Wyton
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
Organ Shopping
  by "Richard Jordan" <mail@gesangbuch.org>
Widor Toccata as precursor of minimalismthe
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
brief postludes
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
the people's response to the organ
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: brief postludes
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
I hate to do this right away...
  by "Paul Soulek" <soulek@frontiernet.net>
Re: I hate to do this right away...
  by "Paul Soulek" <soulek@frontiernet.net>
Re: brief postludes
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: I hate to do this right away...
  by <ContraReed@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Defending NYC Organists From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:31:58 -0500   > When I first entered a New York City church, which was St. John the Divine, 1956 as a 16 year old I was fortunate enough to have an organ demonstration by Alec Wyton, an extremely indulgent and gracious person to me and my friend, who accompanied me.   Wyton must have just arrived then. Was it the rebuilt organ or the = original that you heard? So much happened around then-- Poor Coke-Jephcott was retired, I understand, because of alcoholism. The organ was rebuilt. And Wyton was appointed to succeed him, rather controversially, according to one of my teachers, because he was not yet well known and had not been in the U.S. very long. = A graduate of Exeter College, Oxford, he had served at S. Matthew's, Northampton, one of the most famous parish churches in England for its music, with a history of commissioning works from major composers. Then = he was appointed to Christ Church Cathedral, St. Louis. Even with such a background, his ascension to the New York cathedral was considered = meteoric. Soon he became headmaster of the choir school as well.   When I was about the age you write of, Alec Wyton was one of my idols. Christmas 1963 probably, the midnight mass from the cathedral was = broadcast nationally. I saw, heard, and tape-recorded it. The music included parts of the ordinary by Wyton himself and the offertory anthem "Gloria in excelsis" by Weelkes, followed by a substantial organ piece covering the offertory procession (eventually bringing in the State Trumpet, of = course). None of this music was identified in the live broadcase except the = Weelkes, so I wrote Wyton a fan letter saying how thrilling I found the whole = service and asking what the other music was. About a week later, a large envelope arrived in the mail with a cordial cover letter and containing the scores = of his service in d minor and his fauxbourdons for the creed and Lord's = Prayer. He didn't say anything about the organ piece, but I soon realized that it was one of the improvisations for which he was famous-- how could it be otherwise when it was replete with motives from the Weelkes anthem that = had just been sung? One of his former choirmen, whom I would soon meet, said that Wyton didn't often give the choir his own compositions. I would meet A.W. several times in the next few years (once spending several hours with him at the cathedral, attending a choir rehearsal and poring over music in his office), and he was always the perfect gentleman, going out of his way to encouarge students. He even offered to write a letter of = recommendation for me, even though he hardly knew me. It was once obvserved that almost every young organist's application to an important position in the east would include a letter of recommendation from Alec Wyton, so that, alas, they had to be somewhat discounted. He must have realized this, but his enthusiasm and eagerness to see them all succeed outweighed this consideration.   As he was then, so in many respects is Gerre Hancock now. I can't sing = his praises sweetly enough, either. Others who have been cordial over the = years include Jack Ossewaarde, Dorothy Papadakos, Richard Westenberg, and Paul Martin Maki.        
(back) Subject: Re: Widor Toccata From: "John Mackey" <johnmackey@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:44:18 -0500       Gfc234@aol.com wrote: > > Someone used the words bizarre, defiant, humorous, burlesque and > teutonic to describe the music of Reger. I love Reger so > much-especially the chorale fantasy ann fugue on Wachet Auf. Wow-this > is the first time Reger has been brought up on this list!     How about MAJESTIC & GRUESOME (in a wonderful way) My favorite is Zweite Sonate d-moll Op. 60   John Mackey   PS For Reger fans, there is a wonderful 12CD set of his complete organ works recorded by Rosalinde Haas. It is on the DG lable #MDG 315 0846-2 (12CDs)  
(back) Subject: Widor's Toccata From: <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:00:58 EST     --part1_175.11977a33.2b019eba_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   You church organists truly deserve much more than you could ever receive; both in compliments and in pay. Yet, that should not stop you from seeking =   that which you deserve!   Your sacrifices are noted here and in heaven.   Stan Krider   --part1_175.11977a33.2b019eba_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">You church organists truly deserve much more = than you could ever receive; both in compliments and in pay. Yet, that = should not stop you from seeking that which you deserve!<BR> <BR> Your sacrifices are noted here and in heaven.<BR> <BR> Stan Krider<BR> </FONT></HTML> --part1_175.11977a33.2b019eba_boundary--  
(back) Subject: RE: Widor Toccata tempi From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:11:12 -0500   Gregory writes:   >Another advantage to playing it slightly slower is that it allows for 16 and 32' flues to fill up and reeds to speak.--especially full length bombards...   Especially after Gordon Turk's serenely majestic performance at the Widor festival in the Princeton University chapel last spring, I agree that a moderate tempo is preferable. I like to think of this = movement as a precurser of minimalism, music that intoxicates because it is quite predictable and nothing changes very fast. You might like this kind of music or not (I like it when I'm in the mood but am glad that there are = many other kinds) but its effectiveness seems to depend on regularity.      
(back) Subject: RE: Reger From: <cmys13085@blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:27:05 -0000     Hello,   Reger is my favourite composer, and his music has certainly been = discussed before quite recently.   Anyone able to manage the BACH marathon?   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK       Gfc234@aol.com wrote: >=20 > Someone used the words bizarre, defiant, humorous, burlesque and > teutonic to describe the music of Reger. I love Reger so > much-especially the chorale fantasy ann fugue on Wachet Auf. Wow-this > is the first time Reger has been brought up on this list!      
(back) Subject: Re: Alec Wyton From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:02:30 +1300   Could I recall Alec Wyton also?   Back in the early 1960s, I wrote a letter to "The Organist, Anglican Cathedral, New York" from here in New Zealand, asking for the = specification of the organ. I received a very gracious reply from Alec Wyton and we = began a correspondence lasting some years.   A couple of years later (if I remember rightly) I wrote to ask Alec what hymnbook the USA Anglican Church used, as I presumed it was not Hymns Ancient & Modern. As I recall, he was something to do with the AGO = magazine at that time and rewrote my letter as an advertisement asking for old hymnbooks, sending me some himself. Over the next year or so, I received = at least 900 different hymnbooks in the post. Many were from Cleve Fisher, Manassas, Virginia, and from Ron Cable of Australia, under the suggestion = of Cleve. A number also came from a Mrs Dodge of White Plains, New York, and she and her sister eventually travelled to NZ to see my wife and I in = about 1969. Many other folk very kindly contributed one or two or a handful.   What a treasure those books are!!! Included were some great rarities, like = a 1780 printing of John Wesley's hymns.   My parents went on business to the USA way back then, and found themselves sightseeing in St John's Cathedral NY. Hearing the organ playing, they = found the console and said to the organist, "You won't know us. We're Harry & = Edna Wards from New Zealand." Alec interrupted my father and said, "Yes, I do. = I had a letter from Ross just this morning" and with a flourish took my = letter off the top of the console.   What was the period this wonderful Englishman was at St John the Divine? What happened to him afterwards? Is he still alive? We lost contact about 1975, I suppose it would have been.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: Alec Wyton From: "John Mackey" <johnmackey@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:40:38 -0500       Ross & Lynda Wards wrote: > > Could I recall Alec Wyton also? > > > > What was the period this wonderful Englishman was at St John the Divine? > What happened to him afterwards? Is he still alive? We lost contact = about > 1975, I suppose it would have been. > > Ross > During the 1980's, he was music director of St. James Episcopal church on Madison Avenue in Manhattan.   At least in the mid 1990's he was organist at (St. Stephen's?)Episcopal church Ridgefield, Ct. After that I don't know.   John  
(back) Subject: RE: Widor Toccata From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:53:33 -0500   Gregory writes:   > today i improvised on a hymn using full organ--still-they left.   They were obviously leaving the church to make room for the organ to fill = it ;-)   I doubt that getting people to stay and listen quietly to a postlude is a battle at all worth fighting; in fact I doubt that it is liturgically defensible to insist upon it. The blessing and dismissal have already been given, right? The only church I've ever attended where most people sit through the postlude, and even those who don't stay will leave quietly, is S. Clement's, Philadelphia, which is a *weird* place (although weird in = what I think is a wonderful way-- I'm a parishioner, what can I say?) So, = don't waste masterpieces like the great Bach fugues as ordinary-Sunday = postludes. There is plenty of other repertoire that is magnificent and fitting while being somewhat coarser-grained, so that those who do want to appreciate = it can do so even through a certain amount of distraction. Expect noise and lack of attention and play for God. OTOH, it's just common courtesy to = be quiet for the prelude. If you can interest the clergy and other powers-that-be in such an objective, you might pursue that together.   Alas, silence under music is becoming a rarer thing than it used to be. When people can turn on the radio, the tv, the stereo, the car radio, or even listen to headphones while they walk down the street, music is just = too cheap and easy to obtain to be fully appreciated. Your people probably don't mean it personally. You grapple against the ambient culture, as = the Christian faith has always done. Have faith, hope, and charity (not to mention patience).   Paul        
(back) Subject: OT-ish: Experiences with mysheetmusic.com? From: "Adrianne Schutt" <maybe@pipcom.com> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:02:43 -0500   Has anyone ever dealt with mysheetmusic.com , aka dalymusic.com or = Michael Daly, all of Burlington, Ontario? I've been asked to help someone who seems to have gotten taken.   People from this "My Sheet Music" venture were selling CDs at the = Canadian National Exhibition this summer, promising that the purchase of a CD would =   get the buyer 10,000 pieces of printable sheet music. Heck of a deal for $50cdn, eh?   Closer inspection shows that the CD contains a tiny html interface for = pdf and Sibelius Scorch files of about 360 pieces (bearing in mind that Angels =   We Have Heard On High and Auld Lang Syne together count for 12 of the 360). The html interface also links out to www.mysheetmusic.com where another 125 or so pieces (again, one song may account for 4 or 5 "pieces") =   are available free to CD owners.   The CD and website gives you a little less than 500 pieces (or a LOT less =   if you count the individual clarinet, guitar, easy guitar, piano, = saxophone versions of Jingle Bells as only one piece) after promising 10,000. The catch seems to be the search engine at www.mysheetmusic.com searches catalogs of other sheet music sites that charge an average of $5 per piece. Sneaky definition of "access to 10,000 pieces", and it worked.   Someone who isn't very computer literate bought this CD from the publisher, and wound up coming to me when the disk wouldn't work on their computer. Evidently calls to the publisher (who promised face to face at time of sale "if it doesn't work, just call this number) had gone unreturned. I did get the disk to "work", but also figured out just how little the buyer got for the promise of "10,000 songs for $50".   At the end of the day, there was a total of 0 (zero, none, zip, nada) pieces on this disk or website that the buyer wanted and didn't already = own on paper.....and they're feeling pretty taken advantage of. They immediately asked for a refund via snail mail, which has gone unanswered for quite some time...like the telephone messages.   If anybody has had experiences with this site/company/person they'd like to share, I'd love to hear before I confront this "company" on behalf of the buyer they're ignoring.   Have fun! Ad ;->    
(back) Subject: Re: Alec Wyton From: <MFoxy9795@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:11:48 -0500   In a message dated 11/11/2002 7:40:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, = johnmackey@mindspring.com writes:   > > At least in the mid 1990's he was organist at (St. > Stephen's?)Episcopal > church Ridgefield, Ct. After that I don't know. > > John   I attended a friend's wedding in that church in Ridgefield, CT a number of = years ago and it was still referred to as "Alec Wyton's church" although = he was no longer at the console. Merry  
(back) Subject: RE: Alec Wyton From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:26:29 -0500   > What was the period this wonderful Englishman was at St John the Divine? > What happened to him afterwards? Is he still alive? We lost contact = about > 1975, I suppose it would have been.   I think that he is still alive. He was at SJD approx. 1955-1975, I know = it was a twenty-year tenure. Alec Wyton was President of the AGO in the late 1960s, a time of turbulence, challenge and change in our entire culture. This period saw the birth of the AGO's own monthly journal. He was, I believe, one of the first presidents of AAM (the Association of Anglican Musicians). On a somewhat lighter note, he was also president of The Bohemians, a venerable club of musicians in New York to which many of the most famous American composers and performers have belonged. He was on = the editorial committee for the Hymnal 1982. Everyone was in awe of his practical musicianship-- the kind of things they require on the AGO exams: score reading, transposition, realizing a figured bass, he could do all of this superbly at sight while half asleep, and his improvisations in the liturgy were nonpareil.   One could guess that he left the cathedral rather discouraged. The choir school had become day-only, was taking an increasing number of non-choristers, and would soon become just another big coed school with = the choir as a sideline. He and the new dean, James Morton, definitely had unlike tastes and visions. The maintenance of the cathedral organ had = begun to suffer that neglect for which we haven't yet repaid in enough spades. = I heard, too, that he had to live with a great personal sorrow in the fact that one of his children was severely handicapped. Plenty to complain of, but most of us wouldn't ever hear how he felt about it.   Oh, and one should not neglect to note that his home number was listed in the New York phone directory.          
(back) Subject: Organ Shopping From: "Richard Jordan" <mail@gesangbuch.org> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:36:48 -0600   I've arrived at a new church, sadly the organ is a 30 yr old Allen which wouldn't be so bad, except all the stops sound the same (which may be more a question of contacts which have failed than an indictment of Allen sounds) there seems to be a good possibility of replacing this with a pipe organ (used) and are looking for leads to organs and also builders/technicians who work in the Des Moine, Iowa area   the architecture of the church is very similair to the church I came from which had room for a 15 rank Wicks in the Balcony   it might be best to write me off list so as not to clutter things up too much you may use - mail@gesangbuch.org for that purpose.       Regards, Richard Jordan   http://www.Lutheran-Hymnal.com http://www.OnJordansBanks.com  
(back) Subject: Widor Toccata as precursor of minimalismthe From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:19:31 -0400   on 11/11/02 8:11 PM, Emmons, Paul at pemmons@wcupa.edu wrote:   > Gregory writes: > >>... I like to think of this movement > as a precurser of minimalism, music that intoxicates because it is quite > predictable and nothing changes very fast. You might like this kind of > music or not (I like it when I'm in the mood but am glad that there are = many > other kinds) but its effectiveness seems to depend on regularity. > > This is an interesting point: perhaps it explains its popularity with = those who know little else of the organ repertoire. People like music they can follow, and it's easy to follow. You know when the theme is going to come back.     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu      
(back) Subject: brief postludes From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:23:06 -0400   on 11/11/02 8:53 PM, Emmons, Paul at pemmons@wcupa.edu wrote:   > I doubt that getting people to stay and listen quietly to a postlude is = a > battle at all worth fighting; in fact I doubt that it is liturgically > defensible to insist upon it. The blessing and dismissal have already = been > given, right? ... So, don't > waste masterpieces like the great Bach fugues as ordinary-Sunday = postludes. > There is plenty of other repertoire that is magnificent and fitting = while > being somewhat coarser-grained, so that those who do want to appreciate = it > can do so even through a certain amount of distraction.   Can we come up with a list of sound-and-fury postludes that don't last = very long (since there's no point in playing after everyone has already left)? Like, for example, Gigout's toccata in b minor.     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu        
(back) Subject: the people's response to the organ From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:23:40 +1300   I've been to chburches of various denominations where, after the clergybod has pronounced the Benediction, he has sat down to listen to the closing voluntary. As people don't like getting out of the church without a handshake or nod to the Vicar, they quickly learned to stay seated as = well. In one Anglican Church, the Vicar always announced what the organist was going to play.   >So don't >waste masterpieces like the great Bach fugues as ordinary-Sunday = postludes. >There is plenty of other repertoire that is magnificent and fitting while >being somewhat coarser-grained, so that those who do want to appreciate = it >can do so even through a certain amount of distraction. Expect noise and >lack of attention and play for God.   Indeed, play for God, but it is never a waste to play a masterpiece, especially if you are playing for God and not just the people in the pews. After all, you can't wear out a piece of music! :-)   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: brief postludes From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:40:51 +1300   > (since there's no point in playing after everyone has already left)?   Randy, there are two points I'd make here - 1. If this is an offering of yours to God, it is worth playing whether = the people leave before you have finished or not. 2. If you enjoy playing the organ, and also that particular piece, then = it is not wasted either.   Heavens, thank God you have an organ to play, and the opportunity. Here, where we have a foul 10-yr-old 2-manual Allen, my two comments above very much apply to me. When I get my home eventually finished, I'll be playing for those two reasons only, 98% of the time - but do hope that visiting friends might enjoy a bit of music, too.   If music-making is a chore without getting undivided attention and = applause for it, it's time to quit making it in the Church at least.   Ross    
(back) Subject: I hate to do this right away... From: "Paul Soulek" <soulek@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:16:56 -0600   I hate to do this right away, but there's one correction that I thought you should know about:   On <http://www.lutheran-hymnal.com/trinity.html> ....it reads that Sunday School is held at 10:15 PM (unless you do SS at night?)   Just thought you'd like to know... Paul  
(back) Subject: Re: I hate to do this right away... From: "Paul Soulek" <soulek@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:32:01 -0600   Oops.............that was supposed to be a private message.   Color me surprised :-O   Sorry all! Paul     Paul Soulek wrote: > > I hate to do this right away, but there's one correction that I thought > you should know about: > > On <http://www.lutheran-hymnal.com/trinity.html> > ...it reads that Sunday School is held at 10:15 PM (unless you do SS at > night?) > > Just thought you'd like to know... > Paul  
(back) Subject: Re: brief postludes From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:29:54 -0400   on 11/11/02 11:40 PM, Ross & Lynda Wards at TheShieling@xtra.co.nz wrote:   >> (since there's no point in playing after everyone has already left)? > > Randy, there are two points I'd make here - > 1. If this is an offering of yours to God, it is worth playing whether = the > people leave before you have finished or not. > 2. If you enjoy playing the organ, and also that particular piece, then = it > is not wasted either. > > Heavens, thank God you have an organ to play, and the opportunity. Here, > where we have a foul 10-yr-old 2-manual Allen, my two comments above = very > much apply to me. When I get my home eventually finished, I'll be = playing > for those two reasons only, 98% of the time - but do hope that visiting > friends might enjoy a bit of music, too. > > If music-making is a chore without getting undivided attention and = applause > for it, it's time to quit making it in the Church at least. > > Ross   Hi, Ross. Your points are well taken. I suppose I blush to say it, but = my favorite time to play the organ is when nobody is there, especially at night. Like this evening, when I had a lovely hour and a half after I brought my son to orchestra practice across the street. Just heavenly. I am blessed with a dandy instrument (Moller 1934) that sounds French enough to me. I played Langlais's Cantilene from the Suite Breve, the Prelude = from the Pieces de Fantaisie of Vierne, and an arrangement of Ravel's Pavane = pour une infante defunte that I was finally able to make sense of by completely abandoning the registrations given in the score and exploiting what my instrument has to offer: the melody on a vox humana on the swell, accompanied by an unda maris on the choir; with the harp introduced where, if memory serves, it is played in the orchestral version. I've had to = play enough Allens in my life, including one from circa 1974 that just made me quit that job after six years. They do sound better now, at least.   But is it somehow more for the glory of God on late Sunday morning after everyone has left than on Monday night where there's no one there?   I still would like to see a list of razzle-dazzle postludes that get their point across in about four minutes, though.     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu      
(back) Subject: Re: I hate to do this right away... From: <ContraReed@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:32:11 EST   In a message dated 11/11/02 10:16:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, soulek@frontiernet.net writes:   << ...it reads that Sunday School is held at 10:15 PM (unless you do SS at =   night?) >> Well, if you do have sunday school that late at night, you're won't have = to deal with sunday morning little league games. (Around here, there is so = much demand for field time, that sunday morning games are much the norm, in = spite of many parents complaints)