PipeChat Digest #3234 - Sunday, November 17, 2002
 
Recital Programmes
  by "John Foss" <harfo32@hotmail.com>
Re: Bach Passacaglia & Fugue
  by "Marek Miskowicz" <miskow@uci.agh.edu.pl>
Re: Bach Passacaglia & Fugue
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: Bach Passacaglia & Fugue
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Proper execution of Widor Toccata from the 5th.
  by "Antoni Scott" <ascott@ptd.net>
Widor Toccata
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Re: Proper execution of Widor Toccata from the 5th.
  by "Arno Schuh" <arno.schuh@in-trier.de>
Organ Historical Society
  by <Wuxuzusu@aol.com>
RE: Recital Programmes
  by <cmys13085@blueyonder.co.uk>
Re: Organ Historical Society
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Re: Proper execution of Widor Toccata - authentic ?
  by "MusicMan" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk>
Re: Proper execution of Widor Toccata from the 5th.
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
RE: Of Biggs, Bach and Blockwerk
  by <cmys13085@blueyonder.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: Recital Programmes From: "John Foss" <harfo32@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:22:50 +0000     Dear List What looks good on paper does not always come off in practice - there is = the player factor - and vice versa. In my lifetime I have been to only three recitals where time stopped - I could have listened for ever. Chronologically, the first was Simon Preston's debut recital at London's Royal Festival Hall. It must have been nearly forty years ago, but I can still hear parts of it in my all too dodgy memory! The Liszt BACH - those descending chromatic runs, Bach' "Sei Gegrusset" Variations and the Finale =   from Vierne's 2nd symphony. The second was Bob Griffith's, now professor = of organ at Ohio Wesleyan University, who played Messiaen's "L'Ascension" sandwiched between the Franck Chorales on the 4 manual Willis organ in St John the Baptist, Holland Road, London and the third was Australian = organist Michael Dudman at St Mary Magdalene Paddington, which included the Dupre Prelude and Fugue in G minor, Bonnet Concert variations and the Bach = Vivaldi A minor concerto.   A few individual pieces stick in my memory - Gillian Weir playing the Bach = D major at the Royal Festival Hall, Nicholas Danby playing the Art of Fugue = at the Royal Festival Hall (I was never a great Nick Danby fan, but he had stamina) Melville Cook's performance of the Bach C minor trio sonata, = Ralph Downes playing Leroy Anderson's "Sleigh Ride" in the King of Instruments series - though I don't think he'd be a bit disappointed that this was the =   high point of his playing for me! In fact this wouldn't be fair, but = because it was so unexpected it sticks in my memory more than any other. Simon lindley's performance of the Elgar organ sonata and Roger Pugh's = performance of the Reubke sonata at St mary of Eton, Hackney Wick also come to mind. Just a few thoughts. Interesting topic.   www.johnfoss.gr         _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/featuredemail    
(back) Subject: Re: Bach Passacaglia & Fugue From: "Marek Miskowicz" <miskow@uci.agh.edu.pl> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:56:48 +0100 (CET)     Dear All,   > Gregory wrote, > Did you know that Pasacaglia comes from the Spanish words > Pasar en Calle? It means "to walk the street." Pretty interesting > --- and worth considering in the performance of ground-bass pieces.     It's true. The etymology of the word "passacalle" is derived from Spanish - "passar" and "calle". But the first known pieces of music titled "passacaglio" come from Italy and were published in "Nuova inventione d'intavolatura" by Girolamo Montesardo (1606). Moreover, Montesardo gave the precise definition of "passacaglio" - it was the same as "ritornello" in Italy. "Passacagli" have been played on guitar for example before or after the song and between stanzas. Therefore Montesardo and many other Italian composers published this pieces on each key in order to amateurs can match the song with a given passacaglio-ritornello. Probably under the penchant for improvisation so typical for Italian musicians, people have lengthened the written pieces of music. It is the likely reason of a birth of a variation form of passacaglia. At the last stage of a development, passacaglia has become self-dependent piece of music and lost his "ritornello" character. It is interesting that there are mentions that "passacaglio" has preserved his ritornello function in some countries in Latin America to nowadays (Argentina, Cuba).   Bach was the first composer who connects the passacaglia with the fuge (and his Passacaglia is the first which begins with the solo demonstration of the theme). The connection between passacaglia and fugue can not be broken. The first note of the fuge theme is given from the chord that finishes the last variation. There is no justification to perform only the variation part of this piece. The title of both parts of this piece is common - Passacglia. Because romantic composers (Reger, Karg-Elert) have followed and expanded the Bach's model of Passacaglia, they associated passacaglia with the introduction and/or the fugue. They have written it in the title e.g. Reger's Introdukction, passacaglia and fuge op. 127. So it is, I think, the reason that Bach's Passacaglia is also sometimes titled as = "Passacaglia and fugue". It is a romantic trace. But Bach called this piece simply "Passacaglia".   It is well known that the first half of the Bach's Passacaglia theme is the same as the theme of "Christe, Trio en passacaille" from the 2nd Mass by Andr=E9 Raison (Premier Livre d'Orgue), published in 1688 in Paris. But it is not well known that both are the same with the melody of gregorian antiphony "Acceptabis" for Communio for the tenth Sunday after Pentecost. Nobody knows, is it a coincidence or not?   Regards,   Marek Miskowicz Cracow, Poland      
(back) Subject: Re: Bach Passacaglia & Fugue From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:10:07 EST     --part1_123.19f2f891.2b08fd3f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Marek, Wow, I think you have just written the BEST post I've ever read on this = list! Thanks so much, you must have really studied your organ history or teach = it now! Since you had such an in-depth answer about the Passacaglia, do you know the original folk song that Bach based the g minor fugue (from = fantasia and fugue) on? I have been searching for months... Good day, off to church now! Gregory.   --part1_123.19f2f891.2b08fd3f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Marek, <BR>Wow, I think you have just written the BEST post I've ever read on = this list! &nbsp;Thanks so much, you must have really studied your organ = history or teach it now! &nbsp;Since you had such an in-depth answer about = the Passacaglia, do you know the original folk song that Bach based the g = minor fugue (from fantasia and fugue) on? &nbsp;I have been searching for = months... <BR>Good day, off to church now! <BR>Gregory.</FONT></HTML>   --part1_123.19f2f891.2b08fd3f_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Bach Passacaglia & Fugue From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:42:03 -0500   > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not = understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.   --B_3120370923_5844968 Content-type: text/plain; charset=3D"ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable   On 11/17/02 9:10 AM, "Gfc234@aol.com" <Gfc234@aol.com> wrote:   > Marek,=3D20 > Wow, I think you have just written the BEST post I've ever read on this = l=3D ist! > Thanks so much, you must have really studied your organ history or teach = =3D it > now! Since you had such an in-depth answer about the Passacaglia, do = you=3D know > the original folk song that Bach based the g minor fugue (from fantasia = a=3D nd > fugue) on? I have been searching for months... > Good day, off to church now! > Gregory.=3D20   Gregory, I second the motion! What a beautiful piece of work. The Passacaglia has been my favorite composition since about 1952, and I = though=3D t I was =3DB3acquainted=3DB2 with it. But I=3DB9ve learned more in the past = four days than in the previous four decades.   Alan   --B_3120370923_5844968 Content-type: text/html; charset=3D"ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: Bach Passacaglia &amp; Fugue</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <FONT FACE=3D3D"Times New Roman">On 11/17/02 9:10 AM, = &quot;Gfc234@aol.com&quot=3D ; &lt;Gfc234@aol.com&gt; wrote:<BR> <BR> </FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D3D"Times New Roman"><FONT = SIZE=3D3D"2">Marek, <BR> Wow, I think you have just written the BEST post I've ever read on this = lis=3D t! &nbsp;Thanks so much, you must have really studied your organ history = or =3D teach it now! &nbsp;Since you had such an in-depth answer about the = Passacag=3D lia, do you know the original folk song that Bach based the g minor fugue = (f=3D rom fantasia and fugue) on? &nbsp;I have been searching for months... <BR> Good day, off to church now! <BR> Gregory.</FONT> <BR> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D3D"Times New Roman"><BR> Gregory, I second the motion! &nbsp;What a beautiful piece of work. = &nbsp;T=3D he Passacaglia has been my favorite composition since about 1952, and I = thou=3D ght I was &#8220;acquainted&#8221; with it. &nbsp;But I&#8217;ve learned = mor=3D e in the past four days than in the previous four decades. &nbsp;<BR> <BR> Alan</FONT> </BODY> </HTML>     --B_3120370923_5844968--    
(back) Subject: Re: Proper execution of Widor Toccata from the 5th. From: "Antoni Scott" <ascott@ptd.net> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:08:40 -0500   David:   I don't think I said the Schirmer edition was a definitive edition but I thought I said that I would consider a version played by Marie-Claire Alain, Biggs or Fox to be a definitive interpretation. I don't know what edition they used.   It is fine to listen to all sorts of various INTERPRETATIONS of a > work to find the one that you like in order for you to come up with > your own interpretation. > > Do you try to listen to all the various recordings of the Bach > Toccata and Fugue in d minor to find the definitive edition? I > really doubt it. > David > > Actually, I do listen to various recordings of the Bach Toccata and = Fugue in D minor to find the definitive edition (version). Once again, I would put more weight in the version I heard from Alain, Biggs and Fox as being the definitive version. I don't know what editions they used, either.   Interesting discussion.   Antoni  
(back) Subject: Widor Toccata From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:37:08 -0600   I find I don't even own a recording of the Widor Toccata, so I have no idea what the piece sounds like.............my collection is very heavy toward Bach. Frankly, I've never heard a piece by Widor, Reger, Dupre, Durufle, and that ilk that I enjoyed; a few pieces of Vierne I find interesting.   So I'm a "baroque-ophile!" Sue me! ;>)   Dennis Steckley   Ich liebe meine Katzen      
(back) Subject: Re: Proper execution of Widor Toccata from the 5th. From: "Arno Schuh" <arno.schuh@in-trier.de> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:01:38 +0100   Dear Anthony, > I don't think I said the Schirmer edition was a definitive edition but I > thought I said that I would consider a version played by Marie-Claire > Alain, Biggs or Fox to be a definitive interpretation.   I am sure I listened to more than 300 different interpretations of the Toccata on recordings, live concerts, broadcasts etc., and believe me, = the Alain, Biggs and Vox recordings are not the definitive performances. Especially the last recording Marie-Claire Alain made at St. Sulpice = (Erato 4509-94812-2) is not an example I'ld recommend to follow. I hardly find a second recording of such an inaccurate rhythmical play of the left hand in my not even small Toccata collection than on this CD. = When I listened to this CD the very first time I heared my old piano teacher = say: Arno, slow down if you are not able to play it so fast (without making so much mistakes and can't beat the rhythm properly). > > It is fine to listen to all sorts of various INTERPRETATIONS of a > > work to find the one that you like in order for you to come up with > > your own interpretation.   There are so much different organs in different rooms. Imho. it is impossible to find the one and only definitive interpretation that works = on any organ in any room.   Yours sincerely   Arno   --   Arno Schuh, Staden 42, 54439 Saarburg, Germany Tel +49 6581 3944 Fax +49 1212 518426019 arno.schuh@t-online.de http://www.arnoschuh.de/toccata.php d gze lbc ] 6e 6z>e ket( v -pa~tc gghc      
(back) Subject: Organ Historical Society From: <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:38:20 EST     --part1_5b.3176b2dc.2b092e0c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Greetings List:   Is the Organ Historical Society still in existence?   I have sent two email inqueries to them at catalog @organsociety.org   I have received no responses to my inqueries.   To this point I have been most satisfied with the promptness of their responses.   Curiously,   Stan Krider   --part1_5b.3176b2dc.2b092e0c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Greetings List:<BR> <BR> Is the Organ Historical Society still in existence?<BR> <BR> I have sent two email inqueries to them at catalog @organsociety.org<BR> <BR> I have received no responses to my inqueries.<BR> <BR> To this point I have been most satisfied with the promptness of their = responses.<BR> <BR> Curiously,<BR> <BR> Stan Krider</FONT></HTML>   --part1_5b.3176b2dc.2b092e0c_boundary--  
(back) Subject: RE: Recital Programmes From: <cmys13085@blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:20:13 -0000   Hello,   I had in mind a "fantasy recital" in effect, but of course, we all have = "moments" which we treasure such as hearing Jennifer Bate set the place = alight with the wonderful "Pastorale" by Ducasse and Melville Cooke = demonstrating astonishing virtuosity in the Dupre "Noel avec = variations".   However, to return to the original intention, I offer what I would = regard as a very "balanced" programme inspired by the advice given by Dr = Francis Jackson. It was he who advised that a good recital always had a = light "starter", something "meaty with gravy", a frivolous "sweet" and, = most importantly, "something for the old ladies". It is advice which I = have always followed when asked to give a recital.   So, my fantasy programme with the perfect performer for each on the = perfect organ in the perfect acoustic, would be as follows:-   Voluntary in G major William = Walond   Prelude & Fugue in E minor Bruhns   Chorale Prelude "Nun komm der heiden = heiland" J S Bach   Prelude & Fugue in A minor J S = Bach   Fantasia in F minor/major = Mozart (played lightly)   Sonata de prima toni para Trompetta = Real Lidon   Carol = Percy Whitlock   Scherzo (Giga) = Bossi   Introduction & Passacaglia = Max Reger (D minor)     Scherzo = Maurice Durufle   Toccata from Suite Op.5 = Maurice Durufle =20     Quite a challenge for anyone!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK        
(back) Subject: Re: Organ Historical Society From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:27:58 -0600   At 12:38 PM -0500 11/17/2002, Wuxuzusu@aol.com wrote: >Greetings List: > >Is the Organ Historical Society still in existence? > >I have sent two email inqueries to them at catalog @organsociety.org   Yes, The OHS is still in existence - the web site is at: http://www.organsociety.org and the catalogue is at: http://www.ohscatalog.org   From the looks of the way you posted the address you sent to, there seems to be a space between "catalog" and "@" which might account for your emails going missing.   David  
(back) Subject: Re: Proper execution of Widor Toccata - authentic ? From: "MusicMan" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:28:27 -0000   I think that I remember seeing a copy (under glass) of the Widor - with = the composer's registrations - at the RCO building when it was in Kensington Gore. Does my memory fail me, again ? What I do remember was the fantastic number of re-registrations for the arpeggios; so that each one seemed to be of slightly different tone. It = must have required (at least) an assistant on either side of the executant ! If this is indeed the case, then ALL the recordings previously mentioned would have been "inaccurate", whether or not they were metronomically 'correct', or not, as the case may be (take your pick).   Still, it's a 'goodie' and pleases so many people that it's a joy to play = it and have an appreciative audience.   Harry (musicman)   -----Original Message----- From: Arno Schuh <arno.schuh@in-trier.de> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: 17 November 2002 15:54 Subject: Re: Proper execution of Widor Toccata from the 5th.     >Dear Anthony, >> I don't think I said the Schirmer edition was a definitive edition but = I >> thought I said that I would consider a version played by Marie-Claire >> Alain, Biggs or Fox to be a definitive interpretation. > >I am sure I listened to more than 300 different interpretations of the >Toccata on recordings, live concerts, broadcasts etc., and believe me, = the >Alain, Biggs and Vox recordings are not the definitive performances. >Especially the last recording Marie-Claire Alain made at St. Sulpice = (Erato >4509-94812-2) is not an example I'ld recommend to follow. >I hardly find a second recording of such an inaccurate rhythmical play of >the left hand in my not even small Toccata collection than on this CD. = When >I listened to this CD the very first time I heared my old piano teacher say: >Arno, slow down if you are not able to play it so fast (without making so >much mistakes and can't beat the rhythm properly). >> >> It is fine to listen to all sorts of various INTERPRETATIONS of a >> > work to find the one that you like in order for you to come up with >> > your own interpretation. > >There are so much different organs in different rooms. Imho. it is >impossible to find the one and only definitive interpretation that works = on >any organ in any room.      
(back) Subject: Re: Proper execution of Widor Toccata from the 5th. From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:36:32 EST     --part1_f7.245667ca.2b0949c0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I would never use Biggs or Fox as a definative performance of ANY baroque music. Their registrational and interpretive devices are not in-line with =   any of the performance practices that have been discovered recently. Not = to say that I don't love Biggs' Bach recordings, but they are simply romanticized-full of heel pedalings, flamboyant registrations including massive cresendi and decrescendi on plenum fugues etc..... I think the key to getting truthful Bach performances is to reevaluate how =   you look at the organ-look at it more like a harpsichord (an instrument whose sound can not change much). make music-don't rely on stop changes = for drama. greg.   --part1_f7.245667ca.2b0949c0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>I would never use Biggs = or Fox as a definative performance of ANY baroque music. &nbsp;Their = registrational and interpretive devices are not in-line with any of the = performance practices that have been discovered recently. &nbsp;Not to say = that I don't love Biggs' Bach recordings, but they are simply = romanticized-full of heel pedalings, flamboyant registrations including = massive cresendi and decrescendi on <B>plenum</B> fugues etc..... <BR>I think the key to getting truthful Bach performances is to reevaluate = how you look at the organ-look at it &nbsp;more like a harpsichord (an = instrument whose sound can not change much). make music-don't rely on stop = changes for drama. <BR>greg.</FONT></HTML>   --part1_f7.245667ca.2b0949c0_boundary--  
(back) Subject: RE: Of Biggs, Bach and Blockwerk From: <cmys13085@blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:12:30 -0000   Hello,   I always enjoyed the Biggs Harvard recordings of Bach, but enjoyment = does not necessarily endorse authenticity.   What IS authentic Bach, I wonder?   With powerful romantic-style instruments and swell-boxes, it is = certainly possible to play Bach in a romantic manner, but the music = itself will always outshine the performance and still manage to say = "something".   Go back to the original organs and it soon becomes apparent that = contrast is much more important than degrees of amplitude. The effect of = adding just one or two stops can be absolutely amazing.   Think perhaps, of the Bach B-minor Fugue, which can be played Pleno, = certainly. Let's assume a start on 8ft to Mixtures, with no couplers and = the Pedal organ being drawn at 16ft to Mixtures....a happy enough pleno = sound.   Using rubatti within a strict tempo, the B-minor fugue is especially = dramatic. Change manuals to a Positive Organ with brighter registration = at the appropriate moment, then as the left hand falls back onto the = Great (Hauptwerk) the pleno has expamded to include the 32ft Pedal ranks = and the 16ft manual ranks......a huge increase in sonority, but little = increase in power.   Somewhere towards the end, as Pedal entries (including redundant = enties?) pile up in a musical traffic jam, the addition of Pedal CHORUS = reeds adds a certain gravitas and marcato. But the "piece de resistance" = is to couple full Positive, complete with Cimbel Mixture at the final = Pedal entry in B minor.....the effect is quite stunning on the right = organ in the right acoustic.   However, note that the actual "power" of the organ has increased very = little, and any changes of registraion have involved just one or two = stops at a time.   I feel quite sure that Bach would not play his own works without changes = to the registration.....especially a work like the Passacaglia and Fugue = in C minor, which simply could not be played "plemo" throughout. Bach = was a great musical dramatist, and whilst the harpsichord offers clues = to performance practice, so does the high operatic drama of the = St.Matthew Passion.   Bach was certainly not afraid to use the most modern dramatic devices, = and even allowing for the fact that his great organ works date from an = earlier period by and large, I suspect that Bach was always the "red = blooded" musician.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     -----Original Message----- From: "Gfc234@aol.com" <Gfc234@aol.com>=20   Greg wrote:-   ....." Not to say that I don't love Biggs' Bach recordings, but they are simply romanticized-full of heel pedalings, flamboyant registrations including massive cresendi and decrescendi on plenum fugues etc.....=20 I think the key to getting truthful Bach performances is to reevaluate how you look at the organ-look at it more like a harpsichord (an instrument whose sound can not change much). make music-don't rely on stop changes for drama.=20 greg.