PipeChat Digest #3604 - Sunday, April 13, 2003
 
Digital organs -  and why they don't sound real.
  by "Antoni Scott" <ascott@ptd.net>
Re: Digital organs -  and why they don't sound real.  NOT entirely true.
  by "Mattcinnj" <mattcinnj@yahoo.com>
Re: Digital organs -  and why they don't sound real.  NOT  entirely true.
  by "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org>
Re: Digital organs -  and why they don't sound real.  NOT entirely true.
  by "Antoni Scott" <ascott@ptd.net>
Re: Digital organs -  and why they don't sound real.  NOT  entirely true.
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Organ Parts, etc. Sale
  by "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@swbell.net>
Re: Digital organs -  and why they don't sound real.
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Everett Orgatron Available
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
WFIL Kilgen's owner speaks
  by <Wuxuzusu@aol.com>
Re: Everett Orgatron Available
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
aeolian-skinner + chicaleee
  by <Chicaleee@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Digital organs - and why they don't sound real. From: "Antoni Scott" <ascott@ptd.net> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 07:55:01 -0400   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0044_01C300C8.D201D320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Digitally Created Electronic SoundsAll:   I have always been amazed by the fact that digital organ manufacturers =3D always have their organs in perfect tune. When asked to compare the real = =3D pipe organ with the digital substitute it has always been easy for me to = =3D pick the pipe organ because it is never in perfect tune.=3D20   I brought this topic up at my last meeting with a leading digital organ = =3D manufacturer and they did not seem to think it was an issue. On the =3D other hand, with such total control of each note in today's digital =3D organ (as was demonstrated to me) through the use of a lap top computer, = =3D it would seem an easy but time consuming thing to accomplish. The =3D technician I spoke to, had actually created four versions of "detune", =3D which could easily be returned to dead tune as a default option. He =3D admitted that the organists he tried this out on all agreed that at =3D least one of the out of tune versions was more realistic than the =3D perfect tune option. Yet I have never seen this option available.   I had an opportunity to play a fine 24 rank pipe organ that had =3D approximately 24 additional digital stops added along with a pull out =3D drawer containing a library of a hundred more stops of which you could = =3D only select a few to add to the 24 fixed digital stops. The real pipe =3D stops were not in perfect tune as I fully expected but the digital =3D additions were. I fiddled around with the digital tuning and threw it =3D out a little and it added "life" to an otherwise lifeless stop when =3D played in conjunction with the real pipes. This was a very rudimentary =3D adjustment as ALL the notes went up and down in pitch rather than in a =3D real pipe organ that has random variations in pitch from individual =3D pipes. With a lap top computer, it was possible to select a single stop = =3D and go through each note. You could not only adjust the volume level =3D relative to the note next to it but the pitch also. Very time consuming, = =3D but none the less, possible.=3D20   I was told ,with all sincerity, by a digital organ manufacturer that =3D French organs are never in tune, the inuendo being that this was a =3D fault. Maybe that is what adds some life to it. You of course know =3D that two pipes playing four cycles per second apart create a third sound = =3D and that the random "quarreling" of pipes also adds realism to the =3D ensemble.=3D20     Antoni Scott   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0044_01C300C8.D201D320 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Digitally Created Electronic Sounds</TITLE> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Dwindows-1252"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>All:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>I have always been amazed by the fact that digital = =3D organ=3D20 manufacturers always have their organs in perfect tune. When asked to =3D compare=3D20 the real pipe organ with the digital substitute it has always been easy = =3D for me=3D20 to pick the pipe organ because it is never in perfect tune. =3D </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>I brought this topic up at my last meeting with a = =3D leading=3D20 digital organ manufacturer and they did not seem to think it was an =3D issue. On=3D20 the other hand, with such total control of each note in today's digital = =3D organ=3D20 (as was demonstrated to me) through the use of a lap top computer, it =3D would seem=3D20 an easy but time consuming thing to accomplish. The technician I =3D spoke&nbsp;to,=3D20 had actually created four versions of "detune", which could easily be =3D returned=3D20 to dead tune as a default option. He admitted that the organists he =3D tried this=3D20 out on all agreed that at least one of the out of tune versions was more = =3D   realistic than the perfect tune option. Yet I have never seen this =3D option=3D20 available.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>I had an opportunity to play a fine 24 rank pipe =3D organ that=3D20 had approximately 24 additional digital stops added along with a pull =3D out=3D20 drawer&nbsp;containing &nbsp;a library of a hundred more stops of which = =3D you=3D20 could only select a few to add to the 24 fixed digital stops.&nbsp; The = =3D real=3D20 pipe stops were not in perfect tune as I fully expected but the = digital=3D20 additions were.&nbsp; I fiddled around with the digital tuning and threw = =3D it out=3D20 a little and it added "life" to an otherwise lifeless stop when played =3D in=3D20 conjunction with the real pipes. This was a very rudimentary adjustment = =3D as ALL=3D20 the notes went up and down in pitch rather than in a real pipe organ =3D that has=3D20 random variations in pitch from individual pipes. With a lap top =3D computer, it=3D20 was possible to select a single stop and go through each note. You could = =3D not=3D20 only adjust the volume level relative to the note next to it but the =3D pitch also.=3D20 Very time consuming, but none the less, possible. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>I was told ,with all sincerity, by a digital = organ=3D20 manufacturer that French organs are never in tune, the inuendo being =3D that this=3D20 was a fault. Maybe that&nbsp; is what adds some life to it.&nbsp; You of = =3D course=3D20 know that two pipes playing four cycles per second apart create a third = =3D sound=3D20 and that the random "quarreling" of pipes also adds realism to the =3D ensemble.=3D20 </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Antoni Scott</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0044_01C300C8.D201D320--    
(back) Subject: Re: Digital organs - and why they don't sound real. NOT entirely true. From: "Mattcinnj" <mattcinnj@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 05:48:10 -0700 (PDT)   --0-1729935531-1050151690=3D:15506 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii   On this topic, I can add some detail on Allen and Johannus organs, both of = which let you tune and detune to your hearts delight. On the Allens, = beside the several intune versions they provide, the voicer has the = ability to tune and detune each rank anyway they wish. This is stored in = a database and I have been told it takes about 15 minutes to load each = database. On the Johannus organs, there are 2 tuning settings for each = voice BUT since it takes about 2 minutes to load ALL the voicing = parameters including these tuning settings AND all the voicing info. for = each rank, you can devise as many as you wish. Wind sag for each rank is = adjustable also. Taking a large size E-org with the voice by voice = (actually rank by rank in the Johannus ones, since you have access to each = rank in a mixture, Allen does not), the adjustments that can be made with = the tunings and wind sag .... and you have millions of combinations = possible. All can be loaded in a few minutes. There is absolutely NO = reason t     --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more --0-1729935531-1050151690=3D:15506 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii   <DIV>On this topic, I can add some detail on Allen and Johannus organs, = both of which let you tune and detune to your hearts delight.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>On the Allens, beside the several intune versions they provide, the = voicer has the ability to tune and detune each rank anyway they = wish.&nbsp; This is stored in a database and I have been told it takes = about 15 minutes to load each database.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>On the Johannus organs, there are 2 tuning settings for each voice = BUT since it takes about 2 minutes to load ALL the voicing parameters = including these tuning settings AND all the voicing info. for each rank, = you can devise as many as you wish. Wind sag&nbsp;for each rank is = adjustable also.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Taking a large size E-org with the voice by voice (actually rank by = rank in the Johannus ones, since you have access to each rank in a = mixture, Allen does not), the adjustments that can be made with the = tunings and wind sag .... and you have millions of combinations possible. = All can be loaded in a few minutes. There is absolutely NO reason that ANY = of these E-orgs should sound sterile.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>But, like pipes, it is the voicer that&nbsp;determines what the = instrument sounds like, and there are very very few voicers of E-orgs with = pipe ears. I believe you are commenting more on poor voicing by humans as = opposed to the technology which does indeed allow for an infinite variety = of tuning / voicing possibilities.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Matt&nbsp;</DIV><p><br><hr size=3D1>Do you Yahoo!?<br> <a = href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/mailsig/*http://tax.yahoo.com">Yahoo= ! Tax Center</a> - File online, calculators, forms, and more --0-1729935531-1050151690=3D:15506--  
(back) Subject: Re: Digital organs - and why they don't sound real. NOT entirely true. From: "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 07:54:38 -0500   This is an endless discussion which will never be resolved to anyones satisfaction...to wit: The simple answer is that they don't sound real because they ain't REAL.   jch    
(back) Subject: Re: Digital organs - and why they don't sound real. NOT entirely true. From: "Antoni Scott" <ascott@ptd.net> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:49:37 -0400   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_005C_01C300D8.D48F4180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable         All can be loaded in a few minutes. There is absolutely NO reason that = =3D ANY of these E-orgs should sound sterile.   I believe you are commenting more on poor voicing by humans as =3D opposed to the technology which does indeed allow for an infinite =3D variety of tuning / voicing possibilities.   It seems that Matt has hit the "nail on the head". I was aware of the = =3D availability of the technology and the limitations of tuning individual = =3D ranks in a Mixture by at least one manufacturer. I was just commenting =3D on the fact that the "demo" organs in the showrooms do not demonstarte =3D this "feature". In some ranks digital is indistinguishable from the =3D real pipe and in others painfully obvious. The "perfect tune" aspect =3D just gives the ensemble, in my opinion, a sterile lifeless sound (when =3D compared to a real pipe organ).=3D20   Antoni Scott     =3D20         -------------------------------------------------------------------------= =3D ----- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more   ------=3D_NextPart_000_005C_01C300D8.D48F4180 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>All can be loaded in a few minutes. There is absolutely NO reason = =3D that=3D20 ANY of these E-orgs should sound sterile.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;I believe you are commenting more on poor voicing by humans = =3D as=3D20 opposed to the technology which does indeed allow for an infinite =3D variety of=3D20 tuning / voicing possibilities.</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>It seems that Matt has hit the "nail on the head". = =3D I was=3D20 aware of the availability of the technology and the limitations of =3D tuning=3D20 individual ranks in a Mixture by at least one manufacturer. I was just = =3D   commenting on the fact that the "demo" organs in the showrooms do = not=3D20 demonstarte this "feature".&nbsp; In some ranks digital is =3D indistinguishable=3D20 from the real pipe and in others painfully obvious. The "perfect tune" = =3D aspect=3D20 just gives the ensemble, in my opinion, a sterile lifeless sound (when = =3D   compared to a real pipe organ). </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Antoni Scott</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <P><BR> <HR SIZE=3D3D1> Do you Yahoo!?<BR><A=3D20 =3D href=3D3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/mailsig/*http://tax.yahoo.com">Yah= =3D oo! Tax=3D20 Center</A> - File online, calculators, forms, and=3D20 more</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_005C_01C300D8.D48F4180--    
(back) Subject: Re: Digital organs - and why they don't sound real. NOT entirely true. From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:14:47 -0500       jch wrote:   > This is an endless discussion which will never be resolved to anyones > satisfaction...to wit: The simple answer is that they don't sound real > because they ain't REAL. > > jch > > I think this rather oversimplifies the issue. So long as electronic organs have to come play a loud speaker system, the distribution of sound and its ambience in the room will never be completely satisfactory, and they will never sound completely "real." This does not mean, however, that people should not try to make them sound as real as possible, and one of the ways of doing this is to have a really good speaker system. Unfortunately most churches want more manuals, more stops, more bells and whistles and make do with a minimal speaker system. So the first thing churches need to do is to devote much more of the budget to the speaker system.   Secondly, with digital sound the accuracy of reproduction depends on how many digits are used to define the sound. The more expensive the system the more digits. Since both types of instrument will be digital, a good electronic organ ought to sound identical to a recording of a good pipe organ. In that case both are coming through loud speakers. Some electronic organs manage this rather well, and with some sampled systems it is even possible for us pipe organ builders to tell by listening which pipe organ a particular stop has been sampled from. (Some of the choices in this respect seem a little bizarre <g>).   The third issue, which is what we have been discussing here, is whether or not it is desirable that the voicing of digital electronic instruments should be achieved by sampling pipe organ sound or through the voicer independently creating it for a particular installation. Personally I think the latter approach produces better results.   John Speller        
(back) Subject: Organ Parts, etc. Sale From: "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@swbell.net> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:57:10 -0500   On Saturday May 10, 2003, the Wicks Organ Company will be opening its warehouse to the public to sell all items within and make more room for = our growing business. This warehouse has been the receptacle for almost 100 years' worth of organbuilding excess parts and supplies, and now the building is full. Items for sale include complete and partial pipe ranks, some of which have never been used, consoles, benches, manuals, chests, reservoirs, key contacts, LP record albums, historic brochures and printed material, DIRECT-ELECTRIC action units, swell motors, blowers, generators, rectifiers, motors, office furniture, chimes, percussion equipment and toy chests, pneumatic motors, electro-mechanical organ components, electric drawknobs (some brand new), stop tabs engraved and unengraved, an antique printing press, pipe trays, and much more, all of it priced to go, and prices are negotiable! Many parts are listed on the Used Parts list of Wicks' web site, (http://www.wicks.com/organ/parts.htm) but there are more pipes and tons of other parts that have never been cataloged. During that day the Wicks shop will be open for visitors to tour and to play and hear our newer instruments. Visa, MC, and Discover accepted. The warehouse is located at the corner of 6th Avenue and Cypress Street in Highland, Illinois, just across the railroad tracks from the Wicks Shop = (map at http://www.wicks.com/organ/news/032503.htm, and maps to Wicks at http://www.wicks.com/organ/maps.htm). The sale begins at 8:00 am and will end at 1:00. We will hold it open later if we know you're coming. For = more information, call Wicks at 877-654-2191.      
(back) Subject: Re: Digital organs - and why they don't sound real. From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:50:41 EDT     --part1_195.18a117c1.2bc98fd1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I only read the first one, not all the replies,   Not all digital organs are in perfect tune. They just CAN be. No one ever thinks a digital will replace real pipes. I would however say that I am glad I am playing a 3 manual COS product in = my church rather than the 3 rank real option that was offered up first....   I sold out I guess.   New to the chat but it is fun. Thanks for letting me crash the party.   dale   --part1_195.18a117c1.2bc98fd1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D2 FAMILY=3D3D"SERIF" = FACE=3D3D"=3D Georgia Ref" LANG=3D3D"0">I only read the first one, not all the = replies,<BR> <BR> Not all digital organs are in perfect tune.&nbsp; They just CAN be. <BR> No one ever thinks a digital will replace real pipes. <BR> I would however say that I am glad I am playing a 3 manual COS product in = my=3D church rather than the 3 rank real option that was offered up = first....<BR> <BR> I sold out I guess.&nbsp; <BR> <BR> New to the chat but it is fun.<BR> Thanks for letting me crash the party.<BR> <BR> dale</FONT></HTML>   --part1_195.18a117c1.2bc98fd1_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Everett Orgatron Available From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 21:27:01 -0500   A long shot, I know, but an acquaintance of mine in southern Indiana has = an old Everett Orgatron she would gladly give away to anyone who would come = and pick it up. As you may know, Orgatrons were an amplified reed organ. I assume this one dates from early 1940s or so. 2-61 note manuals; 32-note AGO pedalboard.   If you want to use it as a playable Orgatron, it does need work; it makes some sound, but clearly not working properly. However, the console, = bench, and keyboards themselves are in beautiful shape, and I think would be = great for retrofitting with digital stuff or as a pipe organ console.   Dennis Steckley & A Six-Pack of Cats    
(back) Subject: WFIL Kilgen's owner speaks From: <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 22:28:49 -0400   Greetings, Regarding my recent postings about the Kilgen organ "headed for the dump," = the real owner, Herschel Adair, submitted this posting on the Theatre = organ chatline. He further gave me permission to send it to the other = chatlines onw which I originally posted my messages.   May this lay the 4/14 Kilgen issue to rest finally.   Stan Krider   Mr Adair states,   I am the owner of the WFIL Kilgen organ that has recently been advertised for sale. Regrettably there is a misunderstanding and misinformation. I did not approve the content of the recent post and do not in fact know Stan Krider.   The organ is not "headed to the dump." The storage payments are not delinquent and that it should be sold would of course be a surprise to me.   The WFIL Kilgen has sixteen ranks: SOLO Tuba (to16') , Tibia (16'), Violin (16'), First Diapason 8', Orchestral Oboe 8', Trumpet 8'. MAIN Bourdon (to 16'), English Horn (16'), Second Diapason 8', Geigen Diapason 8', Gemshorn 8', Viole d'Orch 8', Voix Celeste 8', Clarinet 8', Vox Humana 8', Post Horn 8'. There is a Deagan Vibraharp (the bars however are missing).   I also have some fifteen additional ranks that I want to sell with the Kilgen - some Skinner pipework from Grace Church in NYC, some Estey, other Kilgen ranks, two sets of French Horns, etc.   I would ask anyone interested in the organ to contact me directly at al.adair@worldnet.att.net for the price and more detailed information.      
(back) Subject: Re: Everett Orgatron Available From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 19:33:17 -0700   If it's one of the early ones with as many as ten sets of reeds, it's worth fixing ... the later ones had more unification. What's the stoplist?   Cheers,   Bud   "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" wrote: > > A long shot, I know, but an acquaintance of mine in southern Indiana has = an > old Everett Orgatron she would gladly give away to anyone who would come = and > pick it up. As you may know, Orgatrons were an amplified reed organ. I > assume this one dates from early 1940s or so. 2-61 note manuals; = 32-note > AGO pedalboard. > > If you want to use it as a playable Orgatron, it does need work; it = makes > some sound, but clearly not working properly. However, the console, = bench, > and keyboards themselves are in beautiful shape, and I think would be = great > for retrofitting with digital stuff or as a pipe organ console. > > Dennis Steckley > & A Six-Pack of Cats > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: aeolian-skinner + chicaleee From: <Chicaleee@aol.com> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 00:35:13 EDT     --part1_54.eee6c42.2bca4301_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   What do you get when you combine Aeolian Skinner and a Chicaleee? A. A bird in the belfry? B. A tweety pipe? C. A June wedding.   Lee and Keith.   --part1_54.eee6c42.2bca4301_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#400040" SIZE=3D3D2 = FAMILY=3D =3D3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D3D"Arial" LANG=3D3D"0">What do you get when you = combine Ae=3D olian Skinner and a Chicaleee?<BR> A.&nbsp; A bird in the belfry?<BR> B.&nbsp; A tweety pipe?<BR> C.&nbsp; A June wedding.<BR> <BR> Lee and Keith.&nbsp; </FONT></HTML>   --part1_54.eee6c42.2bca4301_boundary--