PipeChat Digest #3847 - Sunday, August 3, 2003
 
where did the organ go
  by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net>
Re: Where did the organ go?
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: New wedding music
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
Re: New Wedding music
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
Re: What piece are we walking about here?
  by <ProOrgo53@aol.com>
RE: where did the organ go
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve>
Re: Hey, ain't that called JAZZ?3
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: Music for a wedding
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Wedding Music CD
  by <Devon3000@aol.com>
Re: Music for a wedding
  by "Andrew Barss" <andrew.barss@ns.sympatico.ca>
Biltmore organ
  by "Tyler Robertson" <brad_taylor32@hotmail.com>
RE: Potential conflict of interest
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve>
Re: Biltmore organ
  by "mack02445" <mack02445@mindspring.com>
Re: Biltmore organ
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: where did the organ go
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Marva Dawn
  by "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Darwinian organists or fossilised organists?
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Marva Dawn
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
 

(back) Subject: where did the organ go From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 07:02:31 -0500 (CDT)   It would seem that the survival of pipe organs in worship is up to organists. If we are not creative enough or flexible enough in how the organ is used, then any current musical fad will prevail.   At my Roman parish, my predecessor didn't use the organ because she didn't know how to play it, she didn't hire any who could, and she moved the choir out of the rear gallery so the choir would be "part of the congregation". In the 50 years of this parish's existance, I am the first Director of Music who is a trained organist! Most people were thrilled to hear the 1965 pipe organ used, and by someone who knew how to use it. However, I've made a point of adapting "contemporary" music to the organ and also using guitars, drums, etc., along with the organ. I use the piano for variety, and for the music that sounds better on it.   If we as church musicians refuse to adapt creatively to the current fad, we are aiding in the disappearance of pipe organs and literature of all periods associated with it. If you haven't read any books about worship by Marva Dawn, get them! She maintains that we can survive this fad and that some places are already realizing people are not really nourished by a constant diet of musical "junk food".   Don't forget, whatever is hip now will eventually become considered old-hat by another generation. Unfortunately, most Christians don't have a developed sense of the Communion of Saints and how that translates into the music used during worship.    
(back) Subject: Re: Where did the organ go? From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 09:05:06 -0400   On 8/3/03 2:05 AM, "Pologaptommy@aol.com" <Pologaptommy@aol.com> wrote:   > Should we be supportive of the way they do it?   Of course. Send them to summer camp and let them do it their way. (No organ in the woods.)   Your question deserves a lot more thoughtful answers than THAT, of course. And I=3DB9m sure it will get them. I=3DB9ll even try to say something straight-faced myself.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: New wedding music From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 09:36:23 -0400     And the minister probably didn't even perceive that he was being punished for pushing you around! I always attack that one head-on at the beginning of the rehearsal by telling the couple, in front of the presiding minister, that the processional is a piece of music that cannot be ended at just any arbitrary point, and that I will endeavor to make it come out even, but that if they walk too fast, they must be prepared to stand at the front of the church for as long as it takes. Fortunately, I usually work with clergy who aknowlege and welcome that I am totally in charge of that part of the ceremony. -WG   > From: "Bruce Cornely" <cremona@cervo.net> wrote: > > One of my favorites which I used when a minister demanded "8 bars" for = > the procession from the nave to the chancel is a delightful little fugue = > from The Carpenters TV album. It had, however, the unfortunate title = > of.... > > "We'll be right back after we go to the bathroom"    
(back) Subject: Re: New Wedding music From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 09:40:54 -0400   I have always had the same feeling. What you have to do, I think, is make a big enough deal out of the ritardando at the very end when the left hand is doing it's little response phrase. I sometimes even put a big nasty mordent on the last note in the left hand.     > From: "Bruce Cornely" <cremona@cervo.net> > > This is a wonderful piece, but I wonder each time I play it through and > through and through... > > Why didn't Lang write and ENDING for this piece? It always sounds as > though the "needle was lifted."    
(back) Subject: Re: What piece are we walking about here? From: <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 10:36:30 EDT   In a message dated 8/3/2003 8:41:39 AM Central Daylight Time, walterg@nauticom.net writes:   > > >From: "Bruce Cornely" <cremona@cervo.net> > > > >This is a wonderful piece, but I wonder each time I play it through and > >through and through... > > > >Why didn't Lang write and ENDING for this piece? It always sounds as > >though the "needle was lifted." > >      
(back) Subject: RE: where did the organ go From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 11:13:48 -0400   Andres Gunther agun@telcel.net.ve     Terry Hicks wrote on Pipechat:     > It would seem that the survival of pipe organs in worship is up to > organists. If we are not creative enough or flexible enough in how the > organ is used, then any current musical fad will prevail.   AMEN to that. Thanks to point it out. I confess that to this day I am not creative & flexible enough and that I will have to rectify swiftly!   > At my Roman parish, my predecessor didn't use the organ because she > didn't know how to play it, she didn't hire any who could, and she moved > the choir out of the rear gallery so the choir would be "part of the > congregation". In the 50 years of this parish's existance, I am the > first Director of Music who is a trained organist!   Wow. I thought that such things only happen in Latin America where Vat II council linements were misunderstood. And regretfully people here have not matured to the point to feel thrilled when the pipe organ sounds "again"- they rather mumble: "What the heck do you play on this old junk so far away up there in the choir instead on the nice XY electronic we have besides the Altar?"- rather anecdotic but not so anecdotic, others hear the organ music but don't see the organist- and think the parish is using a record (as done in so many churches).   > If you haven't read any books about worship by Marva Dawn, get them!   Can you please give any closer facts (exact title(s), editor, ISBN etc.) please?   Thanks in advance and thanks for this sensemaking Posting. Cheers Andres ================================ First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.      
(back) Subject: Re: Hey, ain't that called JAZZ?3 From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:35:56 EDT   B3-Thats the JAZZ organ. period.    
(back) Subject: Re: Music for a wedding From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:44:51 EDT   I work in a UCC church and on Mother'[s Day, we sang "God of our Fathers" = but inserted the word "mothers" instead.    
(back) Subject: Wedding Music CD From: <Devon3000@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:47:20 EDT   With all the talk about possible wedding music, may I shamelessly promote my CD of wedding music? $15 with postage. It includes all the "standards" plus some others of interest.   I recently did two more CD's, recorded on the 120-rank Austin/Allen pipe/digital organ at Christ Church of Oak Brook. One is Classical Masterworks and the other is Christmas Music and Carols. Each is $15 including postage.   My favorite wedding music suggestion came from Dr. William H. Barnes, "All Through The Night".   Devon Hollingsworth 109 Cobblestone Trail DeKalb, Illinois 60015   815-748-0303  
(back) Subject: Re: Music for a wedding From: "Andrew Barss" <andrew.barss@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 14:26:09 -0300     --Apple-Mail-2-19990898 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed   This may be getting a bit off-topic for this list and let me say that I don't have a problem with inclusive language in and of itself.   However, if you check out #962 in the Additional Service Music of the new (1997) United Church of Canada hymn book "Voices United" (or, as a friend of mine says, "Vices Untied), you find the following text set to a little tune:   May the blessing of God go before you. May her grace and peace abound. May her Spirit live within you. May her love wrap you 'round. May her blessing remain with you always. May you walk on holy ground.   Now, how is that inclusive?   On Sunday, August 3, 2003, at 01:44 PM, Gfc234@aol.com wrote:   > I work in a UCC church and on Mother'[s Day, we sang "God of our > Fathers" but inserted the word "mothers" instead. >   --Apple-Mail-2-19990898 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII   This may be getting a bit off-topic for this list and let me say that I don't have a problem with inclusive language in and of itself.     However, if you check out #962 in the Additional Service Music of the new (1997) United Church of Canada hymn book "Voices United" (or, as a friend of mine says, "Vices Untied), you find the following text set to a little tune:     May the blessing of God go before you.   May her grace and peace abound.   May her Spirit live within you.   May her love wrap you 'round.   May her blessing remain with you always.   May you walk on holy ground.     Now, how is that inclusive?     On Sunday, August 3, 2003, at 01:44 PM, Gfc234@aol.com wrote:     <excerpt><fontfamily><param>Lucida Bright</param><color><param>0000,8080,FFFF</param><smaller>I work in a UCC church and on Mother'[s Day, we sang "God of our Fathers" but inserted the word "mothers" instead.</smaller></color></fontfamily>     </excerpt> --Apple-Mail-2-19990898--    
(back) Subject: Biltmore organ From: "Tyler Robertson" <brad_taylor32@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:43:41 -0500   I've recently visited the Biltmore esate in North Carolina and was wondering if anybody knew what the stoplist was on the organ in the dining hall. They wouldn't let me up there in the balcony! I've looked around but can't find anything specific. Thanks!       Tyler W. Robertson Organist, Handbell Choir Director,First United Methodist Church, Temple, TX Organist, Baylor University Concert Choir Organist, Accompanist, Baylor University Women's Chorus   _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail    
(back) Subject: RE: Potential conflict of interest From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:29:46 -0400   Andres Gunther agun@telcel.net.ve   Dear Stan and Orglers,   I have waited to read other opinions first since as organist I am not a "representative" of any organ building firm; as Tech I don't use to work with organists on a comission basis but on few exceptions.   > Specifically, if a warranted problem occurred, would the organist: 1. report the problem to the appropriate church committee for action which would cost his/her "day" job employer money,   As organist, I would report the problem immediately to *both* church commitee and privatedly to the builder or tech I recommended or represent- just for him to know in advance that there is some trouble out there. As Tech I always demand this from my clients.   > 2. quietly hide the problem until after the warranty expires thus saving his/her "day" job money, or 3. it would never happen?   As other people on these forums pointed out, I only hope that this question has a mere theorethical or rhetorical value. Your remark "just curious" seems to confirm that :)   > Has anyone ever heard of a conflict of interest when the church organist also works for the company building/rebuilding that church's pipe organ.   Regretfully in those cases there is *always* a conflict of interest although it may be well hidden, sometimes at unconscious level. As Organist, I would feel partly responsible since it was *me* who reccomended the builder or tech. As Builder / Tech: I would feel responsible with both my client *and* the organist who reccommended me since 1) he will be the direct user of the instrument and 2) he could receive a scolding like "Who the darn did you reccomend to us?!"   > If it has happened, would the organ committee insist on a "No conflict of interest" clause to be included in the purchase contract?   As a theoretical organ commitee member I would, if I knew that the organist acts as comission based representative... BTW a thing I never would reproach or take as a cause to dismiss a project. Everybody has a right to make a business, and if it's ethical and will be beneficious for all of us so: what's the problem? - But I have a duty with my congregation; so it's my right not only to insist on such a clause but to ask for the opinion of somebody else who is neutral, and get references of the reccomended builder or tech. Not only if he is able and reliable but if his building policy and philosophy will match with our style, tastes and needs, or how he will be able to respond in case of a warranty claim if he lives 500+ miles away for example.   Of course 'there are cases and cases, and cases of cases', as we say here :)   Cheers Andres    
(back) Subject: Re: Biltmore organ From: "mack02445" <mack02445@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 17:48:54 -0400   The organ in the Biltmore Estate is a EM Skinner installed by J. Allen Farmer of North Carolina and featured at the 2001 OHS Convention. The specification will be available in the Convention Booklet   Mack   Tyler Robertson wrote:   > I've recently visited the Biltmore esate in North Carolina and was > wondering if anybody knew what the stoplist was on the organ in the > dining hall. They wouldn't let me up there in the balcony! I've looked > around but can't find anything specific. Thanks! > > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Biltmore organ From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 15:08:24 -0700   I don't have it at hand, but we had a couple of very similar organs at Florida State Univ. in the 1960s ... Skinner residence organs with player mechanisms.   As I recall, they ran something like this:   (chamber one)   Chimney Flute unit 16 - 8 - 4 - 2 2/3 - 2 - (1 3/5?)   Chimes?   Harp?   (chamber two)   8' Diapason 8' String 8' Celeste 8' Dulciana? 8' Trumpet? maybe Fluegelhorn 8' Oboe 8' Vox Humana   The contents of the two chambers seem to be somewhat unbalanced, but I don't remember anything else being under expression with the Chimney Flute.   All the stops were duplexed to both manuals; and a few to the pedal; as I recall, there were full intramanual and intermanual couplers.   Chamber one stops had black engraving; chamber two stops had red engraving.   I THINK the Biltmore organ has an 8' French Horn in addition, and the original Hutchins facade (behind which nothing was ever installed until recently) was made to speak ... a 16' metal Principal.   Cheers,   Bud   mack02445 wrote: > The organ in the Biltmore Estate is a EM Skinner installed by J. Allen > Farmer of North Carolina and featured at the 2001 OHS Convention. The > specification will be available in the Convention Booklet > > Mack > > Tyler Robertson wrote: > >> I've recently visited the Biltmore esate in North Carolina and was >> wondering if anybody knew what the stoplist was on the organ in the >> dining hall. They wouldn't let me up there in the balcony! I've looked >> around but can't find anything specific. Thanks! >> >> >> > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >        
(back) Subject: Re: where did the organ go From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 18:06:44 -0400   On 8/3/03 8:02 AM, "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> wrote:   > It would seem that the survival of pipe organs in worship is up to > organists. If we are not creative enough or flexible enough in how the > organ is used, then any current musical fad will prevail.   I think that sums it up. > > At my Roman parish, my predecessor didn't use the organ because she > didn't know how to play it,   Yet they hired her anyway. I don't think I should inquire why.   > she didn't hire any who could, and she moved the choir out of the rear gallery > so the choir would be "part of the congregation".   I have the impression that she was hired ALSO as Pastor and Architect. After all, nobody ELSE was doing those jobs.   > In the 50 years of this parish's existance, I am the first Director of Music > who is a trained organist! Most people were thrilled to hear the 1965 pipe > organ used, and by someone who knew how to use it.   Where did they get this revolutionary idea of hiring YOU--an organist!? A new pastor?   > However, I've made a point of adapting "contemporary" music to the organ and > also using guitars, drums, etc., along with the organ. I use the piano for > variety, and for the music that sounds better on it.   It sounds like you're describing our parish. www.stlukesnyc.org I hope that you are doing these things not out of "fear" of what would happen if you did NOT, but just because it reflects the parish demographic, and it's a heck of a lot of musical FUN! > > If we as church musicians refuse to adapt creatively to the current fad, > we are aiding in the disappearance of pipe organs and literature of all > periods associated with it.   I'm not sure I like the way you're saying that. Yes (much of) it is a current fad. But multi-ethnic breadth and flexibility (call it "catholicism"?), I think, is NOT a fad. We've got our conga drums, maracas, claves, and tambourines. We don't use them a heck of a lot, but often enough that nobody's startled when we do. At least as often we do a real Bach cantata (complete) with brass choir and/or strings, etc.   > If you haven't read any books about worship by Marva Dawn, get them! > She maintains that we can survive this fad and that some places are > already realizing people are not really nourished by a constant diet of > musical "junk food".   Who is she, and who publishes her books? > > Don't forget, whatever is hip now will eventually become considered > old-hat by another generation.   Of a certainty.   > Unfortunately, most Christians don't have a developed sense of the Communion > of Saints and how that translates into the music used during worship.   You sound like you know what you're talking about! Keep writing!   Alan      
(back) Subject: Marva Dawn From: "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 17:30:56 -0500   Hello, Alan, et al:   You asked:     > Who is she <Marva Dawn>, and who publishes her books?   Here is what I found by asking Google for Marva Dawn on "thediscerningreader" website:   Marva Dawn is a prolific writer and popular Christian speaker. A theologian and church musician, she holds a Ph.D. in Christian Ethics and the Scriptures from the University of Notre Dame. She is theologian-educator with Christians Equipped for Ministry, in Vancouver, Washington, and Teaching Fellow in Spiritual Theology at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia.   How Shall We Worship? : Marva Dawn   One source of debate today is the wide variety of worship styles. In How Shall We Worship? Marva Dawn turns to Psalm 96 to investigate key elements of worship, from music to liturgy.   List Price: $10.99 Our Price: $8.49 Is It a Lost Cause? : Marva Dawn   Marva Dawn challenges congregations, pastors, youth leaders and parents to take a hard look at what is happening to today's youth.   List Price: $16.00 Our Price: $9.60   Joy in Our Weakness : Marva J. Dawn   The author guides readers through the whole book of Revelation, pointing out the errors of those who try to calendarize the end of the world and instead delineating how The Revelation reveals Christ's Lordship, exposes the workings of the powers, and sustains those who suffer until evil is ultimately defeated.   List Price: $16.00 Our Price: $11.20   Keeping the Sabbath Wholly : Marva Dawn   This refreshing book invites the reader to experience the wholeness and joy that come from observing God's order for life-a rhythm of working six days and setting apart one day for rest, worship, festivity, and relationships....   List Price: $16.00 Our Price: $11.20     Morning by Morning : Marva J. Dawn, Karen Dismer (editor)   Sensitive, wise, and deeply rooted in the Word of God, Morning by Morning provides nourishment for faith and daily encouragement for the Christian life.   List Price: $14.00 Our Price: $9.80   Powers, Weakness, and the Tabernacling of God : Marva Dawn   This volume by one of today's most valued voices on modern church life offers a wealth of insight into the role of local churches in the twenty-first century.   List Price: $14.00 Our Price: $10.50     Reaching Out Without Dumbing Down : Marva Dawn   Working to bridge opposing sides in the various "worship wars", Marva Dawn here writes to help local fellowships think more profoundly about both worship and culture....   List Price: $18.00 Our Price: $12.50   Royal "Waste" of Time : Marva J. Dawn   Following up on her best-selling Reaching Out without Dumbing Down, Marva Dawn here insists that churches need to engage in a serious process of community discernment concerning worship in order to employ the best tools and forms, and she offers extensive reflections to further the discussion.   List Price: $18.00 Our Price: $12.50   Sexual Character : Marva Dawn   Aiming to combat the widespread confusion today regarding sexual issues, Marva Dawn offers here a clear biblical understanding of human sexuality.   List Price: $13.00 Our Price: $9.00   Truly the Community : Marva Dawn   Marva Dawn looks to the twelfth chapter of the book of Romans for a blueprint for establishing the contours of community in the Christian church, a biblical ideal rarely achieved in our individualistic society.   List Price: $16.00 Our Price: $11.20   Unfettered Hope : Marva Dawn   In this prophetic call to faithful Christian living, Marva Dawn identifies the epidemic socio-cultural attitudes that destroy hope in our modern lives.   List Price: $18.95 Our Price: $13.25   - - - - -   That's a quick survey of the stuff that "thediscerningreader" website promotions.   I do not endorse Marva Dawn (haven't ready any of her stuff) no do I work with or have any relationship whatsoever with "thediscerningreader" website.   F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs     ..    
(back) Subject: Darwinian organists or fossilised organists? From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:40:08 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   The idea that classical music is somehow "special" is a quite modern one, but it was the church itself which started the idea that there was a special type of music which befitted God.   The RC church had developed polyphony to a very high degree, and the music of Palestrina was so "other worldly" as to be almost out of the window.   The move back towards a more acceptable "common" style is nothing new. Bach, for instance, was criticised for introducing "opera" into church; and the St.Matthew Passion is full of very dramatic "operatic" techniques. The "Magnificat" is full of dance rhythms and even comedy. French baroque church music is postively jaunty and even a bit sexy.   I am certainly not against other genres of music in church, for it is all part of the rich tapestry of human expression in the context of worship.   What we must ALL understand is the age in which we live and the direction things are going. We are moving into an age of individuality, where each of us can tailor our life-styles to our interests, proclivities and ethnic background. The internet is a classic example of this.   Gone, I suspect, is the mass culture of militarism, nationalism and perhaps even socialism. Society feels fragmented, but it isn't. If worship can perform one task, it can unite people in their differences as well as in their shared beliefs.   So, when I go to a church where children bang drums, people sing gospel songs and the congregation enjoy rousing choruses; who am I to complain?   If I cannot appreciate their evident enthusiasm and spiritual glee, how can I possibly expect them to value my own contribution?   There is surely far more to worship, and life, than merely requiring people to be little more than spectators in the pew.   However, when the clergy and music committees "send out messages" (I hate that term!) to the effect that anything classical is unsuitable, then that respect and breadth of vision has disappeared, and the church becomes selective, exclusive and even hostile to those who would express things in a more traditional way. This trend HAS TO BE RESISTED!   I hope that I am not alone in actually enjoying the musical blend of "The hour of power" from Crystal Cathedral, which I used to watch on a Sunday morning when I lived in London, before trotting off to solemn high mass and strict tradition. It had a fine blend of quality music from respected artistes and the large choir. I could identify musically with everything which was going on, and how I would like to have shaken the paws of some of those pianists, gospel singers and other "non traditional" musicians.   Of course, those delightfully out of tune, sun dried en chamades were a joy, but there was no doubting the expertise of Fred Swann and his ability to control that monster instrument.   Human intellegence can usually be measured by the ability to learn and adapt.....and that is what survival is all about.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> > wrote: > > > It would seem that the survival of pipe organs in > worship is up to > > organists. If we are not creative enough or > flexible enough in how the > > organ is used, then any current musical fad will > prevail.     ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Marva Dawn From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 19:01:10 -0400   On 8/3/03 6:30 PM, "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> wrote:   > You asked: > >> Who is she <Marva Dawn>, and who publishes her books? > > Here is what I found by asking Google for Marva Dawn on "thediscerningreader" > website: > > Marva Dawn is a prolific writer and popular Christian speaker. A theologian > and church musician, she holds a Ph.D. in Christian Ethics and the Scriptures > from the University of Notre Dame. She is theologian-educator with Christians > Equipped for Ministry, in Vancouver, Washington, and Teaching Fellow in > Spiritual Theology at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia.   Richard Burt: With your opening lines, you turned me off. Two kinds of writers I don't like are "prolific" and "popular." But you swung (swang?) me around in the next few lines, and I'm going to be ordering some things (especially at these attractive prices!). (I'm acquainted with both Vancouvers.)   I appreciate your very helpful assistance!!!   Alan