PipeChat Digest #3851 - Monday, August 4, 2003 Re: Contemporary 'dis'-service by <RonSeverin@aol.com> Re: Biltmore House - Lock Haven, PA Skinner.. by <Swedish5702@aol.com> RE: Youth and leading the services (was Where Did the Organ Go?) by "Emmons, Paul" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Traditional Hymns by <Swedish5702@aol.com> Re: Advice, please by <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Re: Contemporary 'dis'-service by "John Foss" <email@example.com> Re: Subject: Darwinian organists or fossilised organists? by "Alicia Zeilenga" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Subject: Darwinian organists or fossilised organists? by <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Outward Christian soldiers by "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Re: Contemporary 'dis'-service by "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Traditional Hymns by <RonSeverin@aol.com> Re: Youth and leading the services (was Where Did the Organ Go?) by <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Re: Contemporary 'dis'-service by "Alicia Zeilenga" <email@example.com> Re: Outward Christian soldiers by <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Where did the ORGANISTS go? by <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Traditional Hymns by <Swedish5702@aol.com> Hubble, bubble, toil and trouble by "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Creative hymn tune selection by "Kealypaul" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Creative hymn tune selection by <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Hymns - Editing, Updating, Cannibalizing or ... by "Kealypaul" <email@example.com> Re: Contemporary 'dis'-service by "Kealypaul" <firstname.lastname@example.org> traditional hymns by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net>
(back) Subject: Re: Contemporary 'dis'-service From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:28:51 EDT Hi Jeff: I do think you hit the nail on the head when you suggested that contempo and traditional could co-exist. The problem is when the contempo freight train hits town the attitude is throw out tradition completely, or you Vil do it and like it. I don't like things jammed down my throat and it makes me very suspious as to the motives of the perpetrators. I want to remain traditional and would like a place to call my own. I don't want to be run over by an oversized FAD bulldozer and ground into dust. I don't care what Contempo people do, I just want to be left in tact when the dust settles. The Contempo people want total conformity especially in the RC church. I don't like the Mafia or Nazi tactics to get the job done either Leave me a place to worship too, if you don't mind. I think this is only fair. My last remark isn't directed at Jeff. but the clergy and over zealous operatives. Ron Severin
(back) Subject: Re: Biltmore House - Lock Haven, PA Skinner.. From: <Swedish5702@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:37:18 EDT Alan: The Lock Haven Skinner is still in Lock Haven. In 1956-7 Aeolian-Skinner = was contacted to overhaul the instrument and enlarge it. Somehow the contract went with Moller (big mistake) and they toyed with = the EM Skinner. Most of the original voices are still intact and it went from a 2-12 to a = 2-18. I always wanted to have it restored to original Skinner specs. Yet, = it hasn't happened to date. Best, Craig in LH.
(back) Subject: RE: Youth and leading the services (was Where Did the Organ Go?) From: "Emmons, Paul" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:36:40 -0400 Ron Severin writes: >Churches going from a traditional service to a contemporary one to gain members, or satisfy the youth, will be sadly mistaken. Out of the mouths of babes, after doing one of these, said it didn't feel right. Now there is God talking through our youth. I have my friend's permission to relate to you the following, promising not to name names. A week ago was his last Sunday. His increasingly radically modernist rectorina had harrassed him nearly to death for the past year, making absolutely ridiculous criticisms and demands, musical and otherwise, such as that he shouldn't adjust the music on the music rack during the service (the console is directly behind the pulpit and she claims that any movement behind her is distracting to the congregation). When she wrote a rather scathing "job performance review" on him in May, after four or five years at that church during which time he built a splendid program, he decided that it was time to leave. The last straw was when she decided that there should be a very festive service on the patronal festival at the end of June, and she demanded of him that he produce a full choir for this service, even though like 95% of the choirs in the country they are on vacation from the beginning of June. This was also her last Sunday before taking a continuing education/vacation in England. My friend decided that he *would* show her he could do it by producing a full choir at the end of June as she demanded. He saw her off, and the next day he wrote his letter of resignation, with one month's notice. This has horrified many people in the parish, including wardens and vestry, who tried to get him to change his mind, but his decision is final. He will be starting at another church a few miles away. The outrage and dissatisfaction have been brewing in her absence. During the summer the hymns are chosen from requests by parishioners, but she has a particular aversion to "Onward Christian soldiers", and has forbidden it to be selected no matter how many people request it, and no matter whether she is there or not. At the end of his last service, just before the final hymn, my friend walked down to the front of the nave and announced that he would like to change the final hymn from what was printed in the bulletin. He explained that he had been constrained not to choose this hymn despite many requests, but for his final hymn with them he was going to "honor your request." Then he gave the number for Onward, Christian Soldiers, played it, and they "sang the roof off." Then they adjourned to a lavish farewell party thrown for him in the church basement. Several families have already followed him to his new parish-- notably those with choristers. I suspect there will be more. Now, my friend is musically an ultra-traditionalist. He is already (at the church to which he is moving) directing not just one but two men and boys' choirs-- one for Sunday mornings, and another more independent of the parish organization, but using the church's facilities, for evensongs there and at other churches. It is a strenuous program with many special services to cover. He expects the latter group to have thirty boys this fall. His experience is living proof and demonstration of what Ron says above. Introduce them to good music in this way and the youth will become among its most fervent advocates. > -----Original Message----- > From: RonSeverin@aol.com [SMTP:RonSeverin@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 1:19 AM > To: firstname.lastname@example.org > Subject: Re: Youth and leading the services (was Where Did the Organ > Go?) > > Hi Scott: > > I haven't been saving the results, but I will foreward a prediction. > Churches going from a traditional service to a contemporary one > to gain members, or satisfy the youth, will be sadly mistaken. Out > of the mouths of babes, after doing one of these, said it didn't feel > right. Now there is God talking through our youth. They are not > skulls full of mush, but some of our older more influential, members > and clergy are. They are the ones looking for novelty. If they seek > novelty, they are not mature Christians, but seed scattered on > rocky ground or on the path to be trampled under foot. These > haven't one wit of an idea of why they attend church services > except to be entertained. This shallowness gives it all away as to > motive. There's no great furvor there, but lukewarm. No real life to it > at all. No conviction what so ever. Jesus predicted this, and said > "Let the Dead bury Their Dead." "if they are only lukewarm I will > spew them out of my mouth" refering to warm water instead of > cool refreshing water. He further said I'd prefer they be hot or cold, > not lukewarm. Powerful words not to be forgotten or missed. > > Ron Severin
(back) Subject: Re: Traditional Hymns From: <Swedish5702@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:46:14 EDT Hello: You bring up an interesting point. In the UCC and ELCA they rewrote the = old hymns. Yet, more and more of the hymns sung are from the old hymnals of the = 1940s and 1950s. Case in point. In the UCC the old Reformed hymn "Dwell In Me Oh Blessed Spirit" page 464 was sung recently and the church was filled with everyone = singing their hearts out. The last hymn of the day was from the new book and only the pastor and = choir sang it and a few of the congregation. Maybe they should bring back the old Vesper Hymn Sing on a Sunday evening = and teach everyone the music and words. Just my personal thoughts. Best, Craig in Pa.
(back) Subject: Re: Advice, please From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:51:37 EDT Alicia, Ask first what the budget is. A clavinova is a fine substitute for a poor piano, but a poor substitute for even a decent digital organ. Be informed, = it will serve you well. Bill H.
(back) Subject: Re: Contemporary 'dis'-service From: "John Foss" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:52:58 +0100 (BST) Dear Chatters, So - do we need organs in church? Our churches here in Greece are pretty full Sunday by Sunday for services that are basically the same as they have been for some 800 years. The gregorian chants are sung by a cantor or choir - sometimes amplified, though this is not an improvement. Not an organ in sight. The churches are beautifully decorated inside -and some of the original Byzantine ones exquisitely so. Provision is made for young people in the Church clubs and activities - theatre groups, catechism (attended by virtually all children) games rooms of the old fashioned sort - table tennis, etc., but popular none the less. No dumbing down or pandering to the lowest common denominator. You have to be there to appreciate the depth of feeling - not an instant high but a deep rooted belief. The clergy wear splendid robes and look very much the part - not much humility in the liturgy. These are the leaders of their flock. Outside they sit in the cafe in their black robes and long white beards with everyone else, drinking ouzo and smoking a cigarette. The children kiss their ring, the congregation treat them as equals. So, back to my original question, do we need organs in church? Is not tradition and belief good enough? John Foss www.johnfoss.gr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
(back) Subject: Re: Subject: Darwinian organists or fossilised organists? From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:54:10 -0500 The RC chapel on my campus has a Latin Novus Ordo on Wednesday nights with a schola composed of college students. The students asked for it too! Alicia As an aside, last May I attended a packed RC Mass at a Jesuit church in > Amsterdam. The liturgy was Novus Ordo Latin, lead by a fantastic Schola > Cantorum > and an obviously savvy congregation. It tells us there is some hope for > the > preservation of tradition and that traditional music does not > necessarily > disenfranchise contemporary congregations. > > Pax Tecum, > Bill H. >
(back) Subject: Re: Subject: Darwinian organists or fossilised organists? From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:57:02 EDT Alicia, See, there's more than one aspect to youth-inspiring liturgy! Pax Tecum, BH
(back) Subject: Outward Christian soldiers From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:02:34 +0100 (BST) Hello, I've probably told this before, but the subject of "Onward Christian soldiers" always makes me smile when I think a certain event which happened some years back. In my locality was a splendid church with a fine choir, a good Harrison & Harrison organ and a very high anglican tradition. The new vicar arrived and immediately began to dismantle the statue of our lady. He then forbade any latin anthems or plainsong. Then he slowly but surely watered down the rituals. The final straw came when he started to introduce hymns of the salvationist, ultra protestant evangelical type. Donald, the organist and choirmaster, was normally a reserved and polite gentleman, but when the vicar discarded the processional cross and demanded "Onward Christian soldiers", he just saw red! With characteristic style and not a little theatre, he gave out the words/music for the offending hymn as a seperate sheet; the choir obliged to sing it at sight and without rehearsal. History records that, on the day the vicar dismissed him, the choir sang:- "Onward Christian soldiers, going on before, With the cross of Jesus, nailed behind the door" :D Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- "Emmons, Paul" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote > During the summer the hymns are chosen from requests > by parishioners, but > she has a particular aversion to "Onward Christian > soldiers...... > > At the end of > his last service, just > before the final hymn, my friend walked down to the > front of the nave and > announced that he would like to change the final > hymn .... > Then he gave the > number for Onward, > Christian Soldiers, played it, and they "sang the > roof off ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
(back) Subject: Re: Contemporary 'dis'-service From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:06:31 +0100 (BST) Hello, Yes on both counts, but don't ask me why. I'm off on holiday. Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- John Foss <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > Dear Chatters, > So - do we need organs in church? > Is > not > tradition and belief good enough? > ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
(back) Subject: Re: Traditional Hymns From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:09:23 EDT Hi Craig: I don't think the change of words of old hymns is really in the spirit of updating texts, but redaction. If you've ever seen letters home from soldiers on the battlefield to their loved ones, they are unreadable. Their mail was opened and redacted into a meaningless jumble if you were lucky by the sensors. It only underscored that soldiers had no rights to express themselves. The people like their hymns and texts left alone. The neutering of hymn texts should have people wondering who gave permission to do this and why? They even create confusion as to gender of GOD. I believe I AM Who Am revealed Himself as FATHER, and Jesus as SON. The attempt to make God female is to bring Wiccan practice to bear on the situation. I wonder how long it will take these redactors to supplant AMEN with So Mote it Be? When will the red flags start going up to stop this crap. Ron Severin
(back) Subject: Re: Youth and leading the services (was Where Did the Organ Go?) From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:10:26 EDT I was assistant to an organist (in the Christian Church/Desciples of = Christ) who hated the Battle Hymn of The Republic. He was a thoroughgoing = Southerner and a very flamboyant homosexual. When I followed him as organist I was = told that "We Shall Overcome", which was in the hymnal, would not be selected = because " it opened old wounds between large donors and their former domestics". Needless to say, I was quietly outraged. At any rate, my boss would have = to play "Onward" /"Battle Hymn" each year on the weekend nearest to July 4. He = would end the service with a tocatta on "Dixie"--different every year. While I = didn't agree with his politics on this, I've always admired his quiet creativity. = They were ALWAYS good improvised tocattas. We eventually sang "We Shall = Overcome" , and there was no fallout. BH
(back) Subject: Re: Contemporary 'dis'-service From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:14:07 -0500 > So - do we need organs in church? I am an organist, but at least in the RC church, I think the answer is no. I have heard congregations sing the roof off on familiar things without the organ (and with it too). Last fall, I attended a Ukranian liturgy on campus. Despite the fact that there was a Bears game in town, the chapel was full. The priest explained that we must sing to participate in the liturgy and the music was printed in a booklet. For once in the RC chapel (and I suspect that most of the congregation was Latin Rite), everyone sang. It was beautiful. > Is not tradition and belief good enough? The organ is part of Western Liturgical tradition. Belief would be a nice thing to have more of. Alicia
(back) Subject: Re: Outward Christian soldiers From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:22:39 EDT Colin, Touchee! BH
(back) Subject: Where did the ORGANISTS go? From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:24:53 -0400 urches over the past couple of years to enrich and broaden my own worship experiences. A few thoughts: aws. Any survey taken here would obviously be heavily biased. ked. A living faith is always open to growth; only a dead "faith" has its eyes closed and refuses to see new possibilities. year. We all need a jolt once in a while. its organ program in the mid 80's and the U. of Cincinnati CCM's program is a vestige of what is used to be. If there was more demand for organists, there would be more organists. No demand, no supply. Positive notes (a double organ pun?): 1) Are you familiar with Robert Weber's "Ancient Modern Worship"? 2) I was glad to read the suggestion that an organ - a real one - could be effectively used as part of a praise band. Ok - end of sermon. Bring on the rotten tomatoes. Bob Where your treasures lie, there will your heart be also. Matthew 6:21
(back) Subject: Re: Traditional Hymns From: <Swedish5702@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:26:35 EDT Hi Ron: I agree with you. Another old ditty was "Rise Up, Oh Men Of God" now Rise = Up, All People Of God. Whenever I am a guest soloist and one of the old hymns is in the service = I make sure as Virgil always said to his listeners when asked to sing = squeeze those cheeks and let it bloom. I have been approached more than once by the pastor or organist or choral = director saying you need new glasses. LOL! Best, Craig
(back) Subject: Hubble, bubble, toil and trouble From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:30:42 +0100 (BST) Hello, Don't be too hard on Wiccan ways Ron! I have a self-confessed witch looking after my home whilst we are away on holiday. Fortunately, the cat is black, so it shouldn't end up in a couldron. Actually, if you read some Wiccan writings, there is a lot of good sense concerning the earth, respect for nature and conservation. Some of the best "psychology" I ever read came from Jamaican witch-craft....it made such good sense. In my local area, they taunted and burned witches during the dark days of King James reign. History records that these poor people were only a bit simple and had eccentric ways. They were never dangerous or sinister people in any way, unlike the so-called Christians who persecuted them. One of the most chilling descriptions of a psycopath has to be the account of the life of John Hopkins, the infamous "Witchfinder general", who drowned, tortured and burned witches for his own pleasure here in the UK. In any event, what would Hamlet be without the witches? I think I would prefer going to see a Harry Potter movie rather than listening to many a sermon. Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: > The attempt to make > God female is to bring Wiccan practice to bear on > the situation. > I wonder how long it will take these redactors to > supplant AMEN > with So Mote it Be? ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
(back) Subject: Creative hymn tune selection From: "Kealypaul" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Quiet creativity in selecting hymn tunes can be fun. During Olympics, I often choose hymns selected from national anthems or cultural identy (<God the Omnipotent,> <Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken,> etc, ones that are played as flags of medal winners stand on the podium). The <Italian Hymn> and others are also used. Often I will use these tunes during International Missions emphases, pointing out the national groups these hymn TUNES represent. It helps create a new awareness of the hymntunes themselves among the youth, who really like it. (Of course, I manage to slip in <Come Christians Join to Sing> during our local high school homecoming game with highly contested inter-school battle, since the tune <Madrid> is the tune my alma mater in this battle .... heh). Imbedded messages, well, perhaps, but it is one way to impress the unique role of the hymn tunes we employ in worship, instead of "let's all turn to number so-and-so." And quite often I do set a good poem to a hymn tune. In one service where the pastor quoted a poem in a sermon at the first service, I asked him if we could sing it to a familiar hymn tune in the second service, and it worked out very well. In the middle of his sermon when he came to that poem, instead of reciting it, we sang it as congregation to a hymn tune we were familiar with. I merely selected a hymn with a suitable metre. The pastor asked me how I figured it out, and I merely responded "that's why you pay me the big bucks." === DERREINETOR@aol.com wrote: While I didn't agree with his politics on this, I've always admired his quiet creativity. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Paul E. Kealy www.MediaExcellence.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: Creative hymn tune selection From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:49:41 EDT VERY good idea! BH
(back) Subject: Hymns - Editing, Updating, Cannibalizing or ... From: "Kealypaul" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:19:10 -0700 (PDT) In capturing the thought of older hymn texts, we need to be careful not to eliminate the meaning of the thought. This is difficult where language itself is downsizing. It is a grief to see <Let angels hear the call> replace <Let angels prostrate fall>. This is done so the junior highers on the back row don't giggle and pop Viagra jokes amongst themselves. But hearing the call is like, well, when the beeper goes off ... hearing it. <Falling prostrate> means nose in the dust, and in the original meaning of the term, exposing the back of the neck to the ruler ... isn't that what King Henry's queen did before the executioner?. In downsizing our text we should be careful not to downsize the concept of God, and bending personal will to Divine will, which is the purpose of the <prostrate fall> thing. This may not be an easy thing to do. So I would prefer to retain the original until I can figure a way to do it, or explain the integrity of it. After all, church is different than Ebonics. We quote some Shakespeare that may contain words not in common use today, and that's okay. Why is it not okay for church to have a few words unique to worship? And, peering ahead a few decades, following generations simply must re-write the text of such early rock and roll classics as <Be-Bop-a-Lula She's my Baby> and Rick Nelson's <Garden Party> and Don McLean's <American Pie> since they will have no cultural relevance to those who sing them. There is an art to updating hymns, assisting their contribution to contemporary worship, since the words we write or project on PowerPoint become thoughts and expressions of worshippers to accompanied tune, but it does become more challenging to wordsmiths as society downsizes expressions of language. (Although I do feel a tad guilty when merging the last half of verse four to the first half of the second verse of <O Worship the King> to eliminate the frail children and thunderclouded chariots of wrath, it does make easier singing for untrained worshippers. But then, if we really trained worshippers, would they not understand such things as these, or the beautiful metaphor of the rain cycle in verse three. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: Contemporary 'dis'-service From: "Kealypaul" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:29:31 -0700 (PDT) I believe it was on Pipe Dreams back a few years ago that orgaist Don Hustad made the statement that his yuppie church was packed with young families who loved his pipe organ ministry. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: traditional hymns From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:49:59 -0500 (CDT) David, Perhaps my use of the word "vernacular" is incorrect...I shouldn't write when tired :) Of course the traditional texts are in the form of poetry. However, there are words or phrases that don't resonate with many 21st century folks, or the piety/theology of the texts seems foreign (for good or bad.) Whenever I use a hymn or choral work with a text such as "The Call" by George Herbert, I put a note in our worship aid (bulletin minus announcements) giving a brief background of writers and what the text is about. Then there are those wonderful old tunes and texts like "What Wondrous Love is This" that seem to transcend the gap between "traditional" and "contemporary", and they work with any instrumentation. My apologies to list members for going on about this stuff, but I am passionate not only about keeping the organ in worship, but it's co-habitation with the best of other musical idioms of our time.