PipeChat Digest #3856 - Tuesday, August 5, 2003 Re: Contemporary 'dis'-service by "Jacob Bartle" <email@example.com> Re: Favorite Reed by <Steskinner@aol.com> flavourite reeds by "james nerstheimer" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Favorite Reed by "Bill" <email@example.com> theatre organ at Eastman by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Mark Thallander by <Devon3000@aol.com> Re: Where did the organ go? by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> church music in the conservatories by <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Where did the organ go? by "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Re: Where did the organ go? by "Shelley Culver" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Favorite Reed by "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Favorite Reed(s)?? by <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Re: church music in the conservatories by "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Where did the organ go? (slightly long) by <Pepehomer@aol.com> Re: Mark Thallander by <ChPardini@aol.com> "Favorite Reeds" in perspective by <TubaMagna@aol.com> Re: Favorite Reed by <TubaMagna@aol.com> Re: Favorite Reed by "mack02445" <email@example.com> Re: Where did the organ go? (slightly long) by "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Mark Thallander by <Swedish5702@aol.com> Favorite reed by "Matthew N. Chegezy" <email@example.com> Re: theatre organ at Eastman by "Kenneth Evans" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Favorite Reed by "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Re: Contemporary 'dis'-service From: "Jacob Bartle" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:56:26 -0700 (PDT) I too am 19, and whenever I see garbage substituting for music that praises God, it irks me greatly. My girlfriend had been unsaved and lying about it in her parents' household for years, and their church's reliance on contemporary gee-tawr music (the only musician in the church is a guitarist who can't read - they've lost their pianist, bassist, and drummer!) didn't seem to bother her. I had a long talk with her *after* she got saved at my church about that kind of music and she agreed that it wasn't Christian-sounding at all. It was a gateway drug to the big bad world of secular music and she's a big fan of Tool, System of a Down, and Radiohead now. My church is a very small Baptist mission church in Phelan, CA (high desert) - we have a pianist, an organist (Yamaha electone), and a bluegrass quartet composed of banjo, 12-string guitar, mandolin, and upright bass (me). I try to give the praise choruses star treatment on the bass, since I have no written bass line, just chords, with inversions and substitutions, and it works pretty well since they're so crude. I am one of the two people in the church that sight-reads a vocal part: I'm a bass - the other is the pianist, who sings alto when she doesn't play). I play through a large number of hymns every day on my practice electronic organ (3 manuals, 32 AGO pedals!) and someday I might play at church on a special occasion. I've only heard and played a pipe organ once, at the Presbyterian Church of the Valley in Apple Valley...their services are the opposite of ours (contemporary sermons, traditional music service, all on pipe organ). I see very few contemporary artists who are scripturally sound in their lyrics or music, and after my own personal experience that stuff seems like nothing more than a wolf in the Shepherd's clothing (not the praise choruses as much as what the radio plays!). -- Jacob > I find this phenomenon interesting as well. At 19, it seems like I > should be the one who wants contemporary music. :) > Alicia > > Interesting huh? I, in my 21 years of age > > am > > pushing for music of the past, and others in their 60-80 years of > age > > want > > music two generations ahead of them. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: Favorite Reed From: <Steskinner@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:21:00 EDT In a message dated 8/5/2003 5:36:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, email@example.com writes: > What is your favorite reed and why? Skinner French Horn. In the high register w/trem, in the middle register w/trem (add the gambe and celeste), in the lower...well you get the idea. = I must be the most blessed guy on earth to have an organ with 2 voxes, Skinner Fr = Horn, Eng Horn, Tuba, Oboe, and Clarinet. Got some buzzies too, but rarely = use them except for comic effects.... Steven Skinner Minister of Music First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA
(back) Subject: flavourite reeds From: "james nerstheimer" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 15:21:32 -0500 Personally I like real Spanish Trompeta Reals on low pressure with a lot of clatter and buzz. I like those of Ruffatti's at St. Mary's, SF and that Pontifical Trumpet they did at Christ the King, Atlanta. I understand Goulding and Wood rebuilt that organ recently. Did they effect any tonal changes to the instrument? jim O):^) _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
(back) Subject: Re: Favorite Reed From: "Bill" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:09:14 -0500 32' Tuba Profunda
(back) Subject: theatre organ at Eastman From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:17:44 -0500 (CDT) David, Well, slap me silly! If it's in print, it must be true. I lived not far from Rochester and did my pre-college studies at Eastman, and I never heard or saw any evidence of theatre organ teaching. Yes, there was a large "orchestral" organ (Austin?) in the Eastman Theater, but's that all the history I was aware of. I wonder if the author of the 1927 text you quoted new the difference between theatre organs and orchestral organs. Be that as it may, I don't think Blaine's point about organ departments becoming narrow for not teaching those styles is valid. Look what happened to theatre organs when talking pics came in. Also, most secular establishments don't use organs of any type for background music. And Bud, I'm interested that you attended Oberlin...so did I..class of '73. I must admit that the organ department did not do enough with church music. That was a big hole in the curriculum.
(back) Subject: Mark Thallander From: <Devon3000@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:20:43 EDT Dear friends, I hope and pray this isn't true, but it must be, as a dear friend sent the following to me today. Do you know Mark Thallander? He's an organist, was on staff at Crystal Cathedral for maybe 15 years, before and after Fred Swann. He probably played for more stuff at CC than Fred did. Anyway, he was in a car wreck in Kennebunkport on Sunday..... lost his left arm. It was too badly mangled to save, but he's alive and in a hospital in Portland. He taught at Vanguard University (Assemblies of God, Costa Mesa) and played at many churches in SC, besides CC. He was an acquaintence of mine, not a close friend, but I'd met him twice and was very sorry to hear this. All I can do is pray for him, and for the safety of all our musical friends. Someone please prove this wrong. Devon Hollingsworth
(back) Subject: Re: Where did the organ go? From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:21:55 -0400 > >I often wonder: will we have to live with the change, and accept this >new-coming era in worship? Will it come and eventually spread to every >church when the new generation takes over? What do we, as organists, DO >about it, if it comes to our church? Will the "King of instruments" soon = >be dethroned? > >I certainly won't live to see this drama played out to its fullest = extent, >and you may not, either. But, I expect history will eventually record >that by the Year of Grace 2003, the battle had already been lost and >traditional forms of worship (together with the organ) had already lost >their relevance, having become a dinosaur which had simply not yet lain >down to accept its own extinction. > >Interesting posting. Keep them coming. > >Dave Dave, OH NOOOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I try to make a living in the organ business. You mean I may have to sell = drum sets and gee-tars. I don't know if I can handle that. Arie V. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arie Vandenberg Classic Organbuilders ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com Tel.: 905-475-1263
(back) Subject: church music in the conservatories From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:49:18 -0700 terry hicks wrote: > > And Bud, I'm interested that you attended Oberlin...so did I..class of > '73. I must admit that the organ department did not do enough with > church music. That was a big hole in the curriculum. > > I arrived in September of 1962 as a church music major, only to be told that the church music major had been done away with. Had I not already been there, bag and baggage, I would have gone elsewhere (and eventually did). People who took church jobs were looked down on; people who WANTED church jobs were REALLY looked down on. There was no training whatsoever in choral conducting or choral literature. Very little of the organ literature taught had the slightest use in a church service. Fortunately, I stood my ground on that, and DID learn shorter pieces suitable for church, including the entire Clavieruebung III. I never studied works of Vierne, Widor, Tournemire, Langlais, Durufle or Reger until I transferred to Cincinnati. The basic repertoire at Oberlin in the 1960s was Buxtehude, Bach, Franck and Messiaen. Cincinnati wasn't much better, except that Roberta Gary was more open to teaching whatever one wanted to study, within reason. She taught me the Tournemire/Durufle Victimae paschali ... I actually played it for juries (grin). What Cincinnati DID have was Old St. Mary's Roman Catholic Church. Thanks to a musical pastor and a Tridentine Latin Mass, Old St. Mary's became a virtual laboratory for whatever we wanted to explore. I was the organist/choirmaster; the choir was mostly College-Conservatory students, from ALL departments. The first American performance of Charpentier's Messe a 8 for two choirs and two orchestras took place at Old St. Mary's one Easter Day; the first Cincinnati performance of Durufle's Messe cum jubilo was sung another Easter, with Dr. Gary at the organ. Kathleen Battle was my soprano soloist for eight years (she must have come up after Wayne Fisher's service at 7th Pres ... I don't remember now); she sang the Haydn Lord Nelson another Easter. We sang full monastic Matins and Lauds of the Blessed Sacrament on First Fridays, and the full chants of the Graduale every Sunday. The choir had an extensive repertoire of French baroque motets that I'd transcribed and orchestrated. We knew most of the 4-part Palestrina Masses, the 5-part Offertories, and often sang the double-chorus Litanies, etc. on Feast Days. Most of the smaller Mozart and Haydn Masses were also in the repertoire. Years later, I had people tell me that most of what they learned about church music, they learned singing in Old St. Mary's chant schola, the gallery choir, or playing in the chamber orchestra. Unfortunately, the story has a sad ending. Fr. Piepenbreir died, and the Archdiocese took the church away from the German Dominicans. The Tridentine Mass was abolished. Attendance at the (now Novus Ordo) Latin Mass dropped from over 1000 to less than 100. There's now a thriving dissident Tridentine parish out in Sharonville. Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: Re: Where did the organ go? From: "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 18:08:24 -0400 On 8/5/03 5:21 PM, "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> wrote (probably quoting someone else): >> I often wonder: will we have to live with the change, and accept this >> new-coming era in worship? Will it come and eventually spread to every >> church when the new generation takes over? What do we, as organists, = DO >> about it, if it comes to our church? Will the "King of instruments" = soon be >> dethroned? >> >> Not the slightest sign of it among Mid-Manhattan Lutherans. Alan
(back) Subject: Re: Where did the organ go? From: "Shelley Culver" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:16:04 -0400 (EDT) pond as coherently as possible while I was playing (you know you know a piece when you can have a conversation while playing it!!). t there are a lot of people who really like the organ in worship. As long as there are these people, I don't think organists should have to worry too much. Shell _______________________________________________ Eliminate pop-ups before they appear! Visit www.PopSwatter.com now - It's FREE.
(back) Subject: Re: Favorite Reed From: "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 18:40:14 -0400 > What is your favorite reed and why? >=3D20 Isn=3DB9t ANYbody going to mention a fine Dutch bassoon? Alan (who can=3DB9t spell it in Dutch/Flemish/Belgian, or he would)
(back) Subject: Favorite Reed(s)?? From: <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:40:22 EDT My favorite reed is a lowly Kinura played as a pedal stop. It puts a real nice Buzz in the chord. Second favorite is a pair of Wurlitzer Vox Humanas with one tuned slightly = sharp. Awesome!!! Stan Krider
(back) Subject: Re: church music in the conservatories From: "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 18:47:04 -0400 On 8/5/03 5:49 PM, "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > There's now a thriving dissident Tridentine parish out in Sharonville. I think I've asked before. But: Is somebody chronicling this stuff?? It really ought to be done, SOMEwhere. SOMEbody must care about history. Alan
(back) Subject: Re: Where did the organ go? (slightly long) From: <Pepehomer@aol.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 18:52:15 -0400 so good to hear the organ again! I was about to write a letter to Session suggesting we get rid of the things if we're not going to ever use them.">> ying and exciting, thinking that these people appreciate the music so much that they just want to watch instead of only listen. uldn't hear myself, and really couldn't have been happier. Most of the compliments afterward came from younger people, and even some saying "I had thought about learning organ, now I know I will try" style of playing, and when something else comes along, they get shook up! Ok, enough rambling - just thought I'd share my exciting weekend with everyone along with the aftermath! Justin Karch Organist, Holy Trinity LCMS Rome, GA
(back) Subject: Re: Mark Thallander From: <ChPardini@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:11:33 EDT Friends, Unfortunatly, what Devon wrote is true. Mark was in a terrible car = accident and he did lose his left arm. He is in the hospital and is his condition = is improving. Last I heard he is awake and alert. Please keep him in your thoughts and prayers! Blessings! Chris P.
(back) Subject: "Favorite Reeds" in perspective From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:51:10 EDT Dear PipeChatters: It is interesting that we were admonished not to name the heavy-pressure Tuba as our favorite reed voice. Two decades ago, Americans were still throwing them in dumpsters, in favor of rasping, unblending, offensively raucous caricatures of what they thought a French Trompette might sound like, if only they had heard one in person. Of course, the Tuba grew out of its literature, liturgy, and hymnody, and is a multifaceted musical chamelion that is only now being re-appreciated. For decades, every American organ "designed for the music of Bach" had an unnaturally thin, nasal, unstable "Krummhorn" on the secondary manual. My, what a favorite. Unfortunately, the organs that Bach played and heard rarely ever had a Krummhorn (authentic or not). However, he certainly heard many, many Vox Humana stops, one in almost every organ he encountered. We threw THOSE out, too. That's just about the time we took out all of the English Horns to make way for the 4' Rohrschalmeis, as indespensible as they were inauthentic (find one in a real Baroque organ, and you get a prize). Now everybody is clamoring to find and purchase an authentic, historical English Horn from the 1920s. Pipe organs seem to be the one art form that anybody feels should be altered for each artist, and as our tastes change, so we change our instruments. I got a letter from a revered colleague today regarding a two-year-old instrument that he learned had been completely revoiced by a local organ-work person at the invitation of the new organist. Imagine if the next curator at the Louvre decided that Mona Lisa would attract a more youthful crowd if she wore a stainless steel brassiere, bore a fiendish grin, and held a machine gun? "I've got a college buddy who custom paints cars, and he'll do it as a favor for a reduced price." Yeesh. So, this set of list-postings will make for good history. We'll see what's the favorite in a couple of decades. In the mean time, start stockpiling some overtone-free Melodias to replace your fine chorus mixtures, as well as something to take the place of the six failed 32' digital voices on that 12-stop instrument. When the hat drops, we'll want to act quickly. Sebastian M. Gluck New York City
(back) Subject: Re: Favorite Reed From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:53:41 EDT In a message dated 08/05/03 3:38:59 PM, email@example.com writes: Ooops. Is this the "Brady Bunch" list service? Mike Franch in Madison, WI Dear Mr. Franch: Yes. Yes, it is. Now have a lie-down.
(back) Subject: Re: Favorite Reed From: "mack02445" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:02:40 -0400 Alan Freed wrote: > What is your favorite reed and why? > > The State Trumpet at St. John the Unfinished. Lots of power and > fire. Always a favorite stop on my New York City Visits. Not to > mention the Divine Dorothy. Cheers, Mack
(back) Subject: Re: Where did the organ go? (slightly long) From: "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:05:09 -0400 On 8/5/03 6:52 PM, "Pepehomer@aol.com" <Pepehomer@aol.com> wrote: > just thought I'd share my exciting weekend with everyone along with the > aftermath! What a WONDERFUL REPORT on a wonderful event! Three cheers for you! Alan
(back) Subject: Re: Mark Thallander From: <Swedish5702@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:06:00 EDT Chris: That is so sad of news. I pray he has full recovery and can teach or minister in someway that only God knows. Being a Vietnam vet some of us know the miracles that Max Cleland has = been able to accomplish with his limb loss. Yours in Christ, Craig Johnson
(back) Subject: Favorite reed From: "Matthew N. Chegezy" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:19:23 -0400 Can I choose more than one? (Obviously, Skinner reeds are numero uno, whether a French Horn, English Horn, etc...) After those, The 32' Contra Fagotto at Princeton Chapel (4/135 Skinner/Mander) is perfect. It's useful under a full chorus, but quiet enough to be beautiful when used with the softest strings. Also, a good 16' Trombone is my second choice. A dark English sound is my preference. Some examples: (English style and otherwise) -Bryn Mawr Presbyterian, chapel organ (3/42? Petty Madden) -Church of the Advent, Boston (GDH Skinner) -Trinity Lutheran Church, Lansdale (3/70 Martin Ott) MNC
(back) Subject: Re: theatre organ at Eastman From: "Kenneth Evans" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:53:31 -0400 One of the late Lloyd E. Klos' RTOS program notes, written in 1977, gives some of the history of the theater organ course available at the Eastman School of Music. Lloyd says that the Eastman School of Music inaugurated a 3-year course for training organists in the art of silent-movie accompaniment in 1922. A picture which Lloyd included with his back page notes showed a student at the console of a Wurlitzer 2/7 practice theatre organ accompanying a silent film in a miniature theater classroom under the supervision of one of the school's instructors, Robert Berentsen. Other theatre pipe organs were available for practice in several school classrooms. Before graduation, each student was required to play one full-length feature picture at the 4/155 Austin in the Eastman Theatre (which was a dignified movie theatre that George Eastman built to elevate the social status of films. Eastman Kodak supplied most of the film stock then and now.) before an audience. Some very talented students were assigned as associate Eastman Theatre organists to the regular staff organists. There was also a 6-month shortened course for a certificate in theatre organ playing. The theatre organ course was discontinued in 1930 when silent films bit the dust. I know of one Eastman School trained theatre organist that is still active. That organist is Rosa Rio! Ken Evans http://theatreorgans.com/rochestr/ > David, > Well, slap me silly! If it's in print, it must be true. I lived not > far from Rochester and did my pre-college studies at Eastman, and I > never heard or saw any evidence of theatre organ teaching. Yes, there > was a large "orchestral" organ (Austin?) in the Eastman Theater, but's > that all the history I was aware of. I wonder if the author of the 1927 > text you quoted new the difference between theatre organs and orchestral > organs.
(back) Subject: Re: Favorite Reed From: "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:11:58 +0100 (BST) Hello, Well, you can count me out of the list awaiting an English Tuba on 250" wg wind! I HATE TUBAS, unless they happen to be Fr.Willis ones, which have a lot of devil and splash in them. The English Tuba became, over the years, something akin to a grand French Horn, with an unblending tone which swamps the chorus-work. Norman & Beard went to extraordinary lengths to make their chorus-work blend with this popular abomination, but I doubt that they were ever happy with the results. It's interesting to contemplate the hostility N & B felt for the closer tones of Edwardian reeds; particularly as they had taken over the interests of the defunct Hope Jones company and finished off some of his incomplete contracts. I much prefer American style Trumpets, which have power, solo possibilities and which also blend well with Diapasons and Mixtures. One of my favourite reeds is very local to me, included in an organ of no great distinction built by Laycock & Bannister; the local company until a few years ago. This particular reed was added, at enormous expense, around the last decade of the 19th century, and sounds uncannily like a Cavaille-Coll Vox humana. Considering that this reed cost a huge sum of money (circa.£100) and the whole organ, built a few years before, probably cost about £350; the evidence mounts that this was a very special reed.....but is it the genuine french article? Probably one of the best reeds in the UK is the spectacular "Trompet Argentia" on the Walker organ of Ampleforth Abbey here in Yorkshire. The rank is set in a 45 degree cradle, pointing at the roof of the tower and close to the ceiling some 60ft above the floor of the crossing. IT IS ALSO SOLID SILVER!! After the solid ivory rank at Weingarten Abbey by Gabler, this is probably the most exotic stop ever made. It sounds Terrrrrrrrific in that huge acoustic. However, let good taste prevail at the end. I do not have ONE single reed I like best, but a whole set of them. The reeds at St.Bavo, Haarlem are absolutely perfect. Trumpets which sound like the BEST English trumpets, the most beautiful softer reeds which sound convincingly like their baroque counterparts and pedal reeds which really underpin the whole. Even the 32ft reed; voiced on a tiny amount of wind, is prompt, very substantial and simply, like the rest of the organ, absolutely in a class of its own. I shall be sitting in the nave at Haarlem this Thursday (if I remember the itinerary correctly) for a recital, and as always, I will be awed by what I hear. On my return, I will try and tell you about some of the organs I have not heard before and, as usual, try to entertain at the same time. Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- Tyler Robertson <email@example.com> wrote: > Let's talk about something happy. Here's the topic I > propose for 4:30 AM: > What is your favorite reed and why? And you can't > say an English Tuba on > 250" of wind, because that's a given for everybody. ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/