PipeChat Digest #3865 - Saturday, August 9, 2003
 
RE: Ripon
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
RE: English language
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Literature for organ/piano
  by "Patricia/Thomas Gregory" <tgregory@speeddial.net>
Ripon
  by "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com>
Royal charter churches
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Subject lines.
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
"Royal Peculiars"
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Royal Peculiars
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Re: Subject lines.
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Re: Royal Peculiars and strange names
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Royal Peculiars and strange names
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Re: Beverley Minster
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Franck: Prelude, Fugue & Variation
  by "Mark Gustus" <MGustus@msn.com>
St. James' Garlickhythe, London.
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: Franck: Prelude, Fugue & Variation
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
georges krieger
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
Re: Transcriptions (was Franck: Prelude, Fugue & Variation)
  by "M Fox" <ophicleide16@direcway.com>
humperdinck's hansel & gretel
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
Re: Literature for organ/piano
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
Re: georges krieger???
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: St. James' Garlickhythe, London.
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
harmonium
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
Re: Royal Peculiars
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Ripon From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:11:40 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   Ripon Cathedral (Minster) is Early English/Perpendicular style, with a strange transition in the architecture at the crossing, where one side of the chancel arch is higher than the other!   As a FOUNDATION, it goes back to the time of St.Wifrid, which makes it one of the oldest church foundations in the western world.   As a building, Durham, St Albans and many others pre-date Ripon considerably.   It reminds me of the verger at York Minster, who would take tourists around and describe the medieval delights. Then, gathering his party together, he would say, "Well so much for recent history! Now if we go downstairs......"   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> wrote: >   I had written:   Unfortunately, I still don't know what the term > "minster" actually means.   > Paul Emmons replied:   > It means monastery church. > > > When we say that Ripon is the oldest, It isn't, is it? >   ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: RE: English language From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:46:09 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   I once had an American partner who was a whizz at the English Language!   I am totally ignorant of my mother tongue, but at least I now know to whom I may turn on the subject!!   :)   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   PS: 2 + 2 = 22 (My mafematiks ain't good eiver)     --- "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> wrote: > Alan points out: > > >Typical (Miriam-)Webster, which is, by intent, > descriptive of language > rather than prescriptive. Never trust them without > checking other sources. > > I know that, and indeed it is often > annoying/alarming, at least to rely this > authority without remembering this fact. Thanks for > the reminder. > > Contemporary English, they say, can go in whatever > random direction it > wants. I appreciate the flexibility of our mother > tongue, and its > hospitality to innovation. But I maintain that in > many cases, ignorance or > incompetence linguistic should not be enshrined any > more than to say that > 2+2=5. Words have etymologies. Hence some of their > usages or meanings will > always be true to their history and hence make > logical sense, while others > never will.     ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Literature for organ/piano From: "Patricia/Thomas Gregory" <tgregory@speeddial.net> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 07:58:18 -0500   Greetings:   There is a large amount of literature for harmonium/piano composed by Saint-Saens, Lemmens, Guilmant and other French composers. Probably the most familiar is the Frank: Prelude Fugue & Variation.   Most of the Guilmant, Saint-Saens & Lemmens require an excellent keyboard technique for both players.   Also, these works sound best on harmonium (not Aunt Sally's high top parlor reed organ) and piano. Here is a case where the mighty pipe organ does not have the expression capabilities of a well maintained Mustel or other European harmonium....(no flames, please!)   Best wishes,   Tom Gregory   p.s. Does anyone have copies of the Guilmant duos for piano & harmnium. I am particularly searching for "Priere" Op. 16 #2 in F Major. -- Thomas and Patricia Gregory 716 West College Avenue Waukesha WI USA 53186-4569  
(back) Subject: Ripon From: "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:24:56 -0400   Following up on the "royal peculiars" thread, there are a number of churches in the states, particularly New York, that are "royal charter" parishes, i.e., they pre-date the american revolution. Having been the organist there, I know that St. George's Church in Flushing, NY, is a royal charter parish, and I would suspect that Trinity, Wall Street, is as well. I seem to recall that Trinity carries on the custom of paying the reigning monarch a peppercorn in rent each year. Anyway, the vestry people at St. George's were never shy of observing that they could hire a methodist or presbyterian minister if they wanted, they just preferred to stick with the tradition and hire anglican priests. The church has a 4 manual E.M. Skinner which I believe was restored a few years ago. Oddly, the console has NO general pistons; only divisionals.   David Baker    
(back) Subject: Royal charter churches From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 09:20:34 -0500   I seem to remember being told during my first trip to New York City that St. George's (at which I remember Jane Parker-Smith playing like it was an aerobics class and not an organ recital, although it was certainly beautiful and awe-inspiring) closed its doors during the American Revolution in order to keep from praying for King George's health! Of course, there was quite a bit of turmoil then in New York, so other reasons may have been in the mix.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com          
(back) Subject: Subject lines. From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 10:37:44 -0400   At 10:24 AM 8/9/03 -0400, David Baker wrote:   >Following up on the "royal peculiars" thread, there are a number of >churches in the states, particularly New York, that are "royal charter" >parishes, i.e., they pre-date the american revolution.   David, 'et al',   I found the subject of "Royal Peculiars" to be of great interest, and well worth reading, - BUT ...!   Why don't all our correspondents remember to change the subject line as the thread develops, - the subject was Ripon Minster, but has morphed into Royal Particulars, - so the subject line needs to be changed as well.   Just my tuppence worth!   Bob Conway        
(back) Subject: "Royal Peculiars" From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 10:48:31 -0400   The church that we attended in London was Christ Church Cosway Street, which was a "Royal Living". It was noted for almost 150 years for its music, and the fact that the Rector had to be appointed by the reigning Monarch.   It was one of six churches in London that were called "Waterloo" churches, as they all were built to commemorate Wellington's victory over the French at Waterloo. Externally they all had a similar appearance, but were different once you got inside.   Another thing was that we all wore red cassocks to denote the fact that it was a Royal Church. I don't know about the others, but Christ Church was closed and sold off in the 1970's, - but the 1925 Bishop organ is now safely in place at the Highgate School.   Bob Conway    
(back) Subject: Royal Peculiars From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:51:13 -0500   At 10:37 AM -0400 8/9/03, Bob Conway wrote: >I found the subject of "Royal Peculiars" to be of great interest, >and well worth reading,   According to Anglicans OnLine the following are the Royal Peculiars that they know about: ********************************************** Royal Peculiars   A Royal Peculiar is a church that belongs directly to the monarch and not to any diocese or province. The concept originated in Anglo-Saxon times and developed as a result of the relationship between the Norman and Plantagenet Kings and the English Church. We know of these Royal Peculiars:   St George's Chapel, Windsor Castle (The Queen's Free Chapel of St George in Windsor Castle) The Chapel Royal, St James's Palace The Queen's Chapel , St James's Palace The Chapel Royal, Hampton Court The Chapel of St John the Evangelist in the Tower of London The Chapel of St Peter ad Vincula in the Tower of London The Royal Chapel of All Saints, Windsor The Queen's Chapel of the Savoy The Royal Foundation of St Katharine The Chapel of St Edward, King and Martyr, Cambridge The Palace of Holyrood The Collegiate Church of St Peter, Westminster (Westminster Abbey) ************************************* http://anglicansonline.org/uk-europe/england/dioceses/     David  
(back) Subject: Re: Subject lines. From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 11:41:57 -0400       Bob Conway wrote:   > At 10:24 AM 8/9/03 -0400, David Baker wrote: > > >Following up on the "royal peculiars" thread, there are a number of > >churches in the states, particularly New York, that are "royal charter" > >parishes, i.e., they pre-date the american revolution. > > David, 'et al', > > I found the subject of "Royal Peculiars" to be of great interest, and well > worth reading, - BUT ...! > > Why don't all our correspondents remember to change the subject line as the > thread develops, - the subject was Ripon Minster, but has morphed into > Royal Particulars, - so the subject line needs to be changed as well. > > Just my tuppence worth! > > Bob Conway   Oh come now Bob, You haven't had a tuppence jingling in your pocket for years now, maybe just a few of those fake looking North of the border pennies that aren't worth the copper alloy they are stamped from. (g) Blame it on the inventor of the "Reply" button. With one swift click, you can begin typing anything you wish, on any subject you wish, and leave all the editorial labor to the poor reader who must wade through all the accumulated detritus contained in however many previous posts the reply button was applied to. The subject line is but one casualty of this insidious "reply button disease". With all the previous author's contributions accounted for in a continuing reply button post, readers must embark on a Columbo style investigation to determine who wrote what, in what order did they write it, did it have anything to do with what is being said now. You must "mine" for what is relevant, and discard what is confusing or irrelevant. The icing on the cake is you must count the number of "Pipe Up and Be Heard" signature tags at the bottom of the post to determine just how many posts are involved with the present one. Personally, I happen to love the challenge presented by reply button posts because they require discipline and mental focus to glean any pertinent content, and I know that some of the contributors might not take the time to share their thoughts if it weren't for the convenience of the reply button. Then again, I tend to look at the bright side of everything. If that be a fault in my nature, I make no apology. (g) Cheers Mike    
(back) Subject: Re: Royal Peculiars and strange names From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 11:44:53 EDT   Hi David:   Near St. Paul's Cathedral in London there is a church with a rather fascinating name, St. James ...alias Foster. it contains a fine old organ. They were offering free concerts there during the week. IIRC it was across the street from the St. Paul's subway station. It was rather unusual in the interior with all choir seating and lamps at every station. Does anyone know why the unusual name for the church?   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: Royal Peculiars and strange names From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 11:45:27 -0500   At 11:44 AM -0400 8/9/03, RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: >Hi David: > >Near St. Paul's Cathedral in London there is a church with a >rather fascinating name, St. James ...alias Foster. it contains >a fine old organ. They were offering free concerts there during >the week. IIRC it was across the street from the St. Paul's >subway station. It was rather unusual in the interior with all >choir seating and lamps at every station. Does anyone know >why the unusual name for the church? > >Ron Severin   The only church that I can find that might be what you are thinking of is St James Garlickythe which does contain an old organ. But it is not right across from the St. Paul's Tube Station and as far as I can determine does not contain only choir stalls but has regular pews for the congregation. It is however within walking distance of St. Paul's   If this is the church you are thinking about the name comes from the fact that it stands at the bottom of Garlick Hill   Maybe Bob Conway, who is originally from London or Colin can give further information in case i have something wrong with my reply.   David  
(back) Subject: Re: Beverley Minster From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 18:12:19 +0100 (BST)   Hello Paul,   I can't imagine which church you have in mind in Lancashire!   As I am in Holland at the moment, I can't even ask around.   I'm glad that you discovered Beverley; probably the finest piece of medieval architecture in the UK.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- Paul <pianoman1@ntlworld.com> wrote: > What a fool I am!! Having checked the internet I > see that Beverley Minster is far from a small church > in a 'leafy' area. > > Can you help me out Colin?? What church am I > thinking of?? > > Paul.   ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Franck: Prelude, Fugue & Variation From: "Mark Gustus" <MGustus@msn.com> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:11:44 -0500     Bud wrote:   Wasn't there a piano/organ version of Prelude, Fugue, and Variation =3D20 (Franck?).   Hello all-   Oh yes, there's a interesting recording of this on the Ricercar label = wi=3D th Joris Verdin (harmonium) and Jos van Immerseel (piano). The = harmonium=3D is by Alexandre, c1865, from the collection of the Vleeshuis Antwerp. = =3D The sound of the harmonium is ravishing. As Tom has rightly noted, = it'=3D s not "Aunt Sally's high-top parlor reed organ." I mention this CD = becau=3D se it is worth hearing, though IMHO not a great musical success. The = co=3D lors of the two instruments stand too far apart and seem to force a = dialo=3D g that isn't entirely convincing. In the liner notes, Joel-Marie = Fauque=3D t suggests it is "highly possible" this is the original version of the = wo=3D rk rather than a later transcription. I'd be curious to see the = evidence=3D .. Can any Franck scholars shed some light?   If you love this music, and are interested in hearing it in a new way, = =3D I'd suggest Vladimr Viardo's recording of the Harold Bauer-Viardo piano = t=3D ranscription on the Pro Piano label (PPR224509). It's absolutely = luminou=3D s, and stunning - both musically and technically. Also on this disc is = =3D the Bach-Liszt A Minor Prelude and Fugue and the Franck B minor and A = min=3D or Chorals.   As an aside, I don't recall seeing a general discussion here of = transcri=3D ptions to/from the organ. Yes? No? Maybe, if? I'm very fond of the = Fr=3D anck Chorals transcribed for concert band. And years ago I heard Thomas = =3D Murray play a wonderful transcription of the Prelude to Humperdinck's = Han=3D sel and Gretel at Rockefeller Chapel, Chicago. Does anyone here = remembe=3D r Anthony Newman's recording of Wagner played at St. John the Divine - = wi=3D th the unfortunate title "Organ Orgy?" Quite a trip, sadly never = reissu=3D ed on CD. New thread, anyone?   -Mark =3D20    
(back) Subject: St. James' Garlickhythe, London. From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 13:31:33 -0400       >At 11:44 AM -0400 8/9/03, RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: >>Hi David: >> >>Near St. Paul's Cathedral in London there is a church with a >>rather fascinating name, St. James ...alias Foster. it contains >>a fine old organ. They were offering free concerts there during >>the week. IIRC it was across the street from the St. Paul's >>subway station. It was rather unusual in the interior with all >>choir seating and lamps at every station. Does anyone know >>why the unusual name for the church? >> >>Ron Severin     I cannot help you with that one, for I have never heard of the church, - let alone visited it.   Then David went on to say;   >The only church that I can find that might be what you are thinking of is >St James Garlickythe >which does contain an old organ. But it is not right across from the St. >Paul's Tube Station and as far as I can determine does not contain only >choir stalls but has regular pews for the congregation. It is however >within walking distance of St. Paul's > >If this is the church you are thinking about the name comes from the fact >that it stands at the bottom of Garlick Hill   Bob Conway replies;   Now I do know about St. James' Church, Garlickhythe which is on Upper Thames Street and has the remnants of a Knopple (1719) organ, which is reputed to have some original pipework by Father Smith. It is thought that Mr. Knopple bought up a secondhand Smith case and some pipework and assembled them in his organ.   This must have worked well, for the organ survived almost a hundred and fifty years without change until 1866, when Gray and Davison rebuilt it. Twenty two years later, Hill added more stops. This instrument was badly damaged by Hitler's Luftwaffe during the Second World War   In 1963, N.P. Mander turned their attention to the war damaged organ, and later in 1975 the organ was again rebuilt. As it stands today, the organ in St. James' Garlickhythe is essentially a 19th century sounding organ.   I found all this information in Nicholas M. Plumley's book "The Organs of the City of London" published by Positif Press, Oxford 1996. In which there are two photographs of the interior of the church, and is quite normal in the pew seating arrangement.   I hope that this helps,   Bob    
(back) Subject: Re: Franck: Prelude, Fugue & Variation From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 13:52:06 -0400   hello, bud et al. i played the piano/organ duet in church twice this year already (the 2nd time was on request from several congregation members and the pastor).   as also the crowd favorite.   scot (back from italy)  
(back) Subject: georges krieger From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 13:54:01 -0400   e. can anyone help me locate the score?   thanks,   scot  
(back) Subject: Re: Transcriptions (was Franck: Prelude, Fugue & Variation) From: "M Fox" <ophicleide16@direcway.com> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 11:17:24 -0700     ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Gustus   >As an aside, I don't recall seeing a general discussion here of = transcriptions to/from the organ. Yes? No? >Maybe, if? I'm very fond = of the Franck Chorals transcribed for concert band. And years ago I heard = Thomas >Murray play a wonderful transcription of the Prelude to = Humperdinck's Hansel and Gretel at Rockefeller Chapel, >Chicago.   Murray also recorded it at Woolsey Hall (Priory PRCD 338). Wonderful it = is, but I imagine much more fun to listen to than to play.   >Does anyone here remember Anthony Newman's recording of Wagner played = at St. John the Divine - with the >unfortunate title "Organ Orgy?" Quite = a trip, sadly never reissued on CD. New thread, anyone?   I still do not understand how that record was made. The State Trumpet is = miked up close, the chancel divisions even more so, but somehow it doesn't = turn into the sonic dog's dinner you might expect.   Michael Fox    
(back) Subject: humperdinck's hansel & gretel From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 14:33:11 EDT   In a message dated 8/9/03 11:20:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ophicleide16@direcway.com writes:   << Murray also recorded it at Woolsey Hall (Priory PRCD 338). Wonderful it is, but I imagine much more fun to listen to than to play. >>   it's a bitch and a half to play, but a LOT of fun. gotta have a lot of colorful stops, at least 3 manuals, and tons of pistons. even then you'll be using double pedal, and playing on 2 manuals with each hand. the audience really likes the visual aspect of it, in addition to the music itself.   scot  
(back) Subject: Re: Literature for organ/piano From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 14:54:43 EDT   Tom, I don't know these pieces (and will certainly search for them), but I do = know that a proper Harmonium can be an excellent and expressive--if very 19th Century--instrument. Gustav Mahler was fond enough of the instrument to = make use of it in a symphony. He also made liberal and artful use of the mandolin--another unusual instrument--in several orchestral scores. = 19th-Century arrangements of Mahler's lieder also exist for voice and Harmonium and are = available in vintage editions (I bought one at Doblinger's Antiquariat last year, in = fact).   You are also right to point out that an Harmonium of the sort which = formerly enjoyed popularity in European salons is a far superior instrument in comparison to the kind of Sears-Catalogue, mass-produced reed organs = found in "great auntie's living room" or tucked away in the gallery of "St. Bede's in the Weeds". The same can be said of the cousins of Lawrence Welk's Accordion = (like the Bandoneon, etc)-- not all versions of the reed organ are equal.   Bill Harris          
(back) Subject: Re: georges krieger??? From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 14:57:03 EDT   Hi Scot:   Do you mean Johann Kreiger? or is Georges Krieger a later composer?   Ron    
(back) Subject: Re: St. James' Garlickhythe, London. From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 13:58:58 -0500   The only church with "Foster" in it that I can think of is St. Vedast, Foster Lane, which also has a historic organ, built by Harris & Byfield in 1731.   John Speller    
(back) Subject: harmonium From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 15:10:40 -0400   regarding the harmonium, don't forget about vierne's pieces which don't need pedal... i loaned my books to a friend who has an old pump organ, & he said they play beautifully on it.   scot  
(back) Subject: Re: Royal Peculiars From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 14:16:01 -0500   There are other peculiars besides royal ones. Oxford and Cambridge college chapels are peculiars, being outside the normal parish structure of the church. St. Mark's Church in Bristol is as far as I know the only mayoral peculiar, being a peculiar of the Lord Mayor and Corporation of the City of Bristol. This came about in a curious manner. At the time of the Dissolution of the Monasteries it was the chapel of a monastery that ran a hospital for the sick. As this was the only hospital in the city at the time, the Lord Mayor and Corporation decided they had better buy it to stop it from being closed. The chapel came with it, and it was eventually decided to make it into a private chapel for the Lord Mayor and Corporation. It is often called "The Lord Mayor's Chapel" and is a favorite venue for weddings.   In David's list from Anglicans Online I have some doubts about St. Edward, King and Martyr, Cambridge being a royal peculiar. I had always thought it was a proprietary chapel. The Royal Foundation of St. Katherine is also known as "St. Katherine by the Tower."   John Speller   David Scribner wrote:   > At 10:37 AM -0400 8/9/03, Bob Conway wrote: > >> I found the subject of "Royal Peculiars" to be of great interest, and >> well worth reading, > > > According to Anglicans OnLine the following are the Royal Peculiars > that they know about: > ********************************************** > Royal Peculiars > > A Royal Peculiar is a church that belongs directly to the monarch and > not to any diocese or province. The concept originated in Anglo-Saxon > times and developed as a result of the relationship between the Norman > and Plantagenet Kings and the English Church. We know of these Royal > Peculiars: > > St George's Chapel, Windsor Castle (The Queen's Free Chapel of St > George in Windsor Castle) > The Chapel Royal, St James's Palace > The Queen's Chapel , St James's Palace > The Chapel Royal, Hampton Court > The Chapel of St John the Evangelist in the Tower of London > The Chapel of St Peter ad Vincula in the Tower of London > The Royal Chapel of All Saints, Windsor > The Queen's Chapel of the Savoy > The Royal Foundation of St Katharine > The Chapel of St Edward, King and Martyr, Cambridge > The Palace of Holyrood > The Collegiate Church of St Peter, Westminster (Westminster Abbey) > ************************************* > http://anglicansonline.org/uk-europe/england/dioceses/ >