PipeChat Digest #3869 - Monday, August 11, 2003
 
Mixtures
  by "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Mixtures
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Orwell, VT Hook (and 2-rank mixture)
  by "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net>
Re: humperdinck's hansel & gretel
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
Web site update
  by "Peter Rodwell" <iof@ctv.es>
RE: Mixtures
  by "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca>
RE: Mixtures
  by <REEDSTOP@prodigy.net>
St. George's Manhattan (was Royal charter parishes)
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
Re: Mixtures
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Mixtures
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Mixtures
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
RE: Reed Performance
  by "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu>
Re: Mixtures
  by <Swedish5702@aol.com>
Re: Mixtures
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: More MP3 recordings from Holy Cross Lutheran O'Fallon, MO
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: More MP3 recordings from Holy Cross Lutheran O'Fallon, MO
  by "Travis L. Evans" <tevansmo@prodigy.net>
Re: More MP3 recordings from Holy Cross Lutheran O'Fallon, MO
  by "David Evangelides" <davide@theatreorgans.com>
THANK YOU!
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
 

(back) Subject: Mixtures From: "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:25:18 +0100 (BST)   We seem to have spent some time discussing reeds recently, but I don't think we have covered Mixtures, unless I slept through that lesson. Apart from my revoicing the Tuba on the organ of St. George's, Headstone, when I was 14, I have not spent any time acquiring the artful skill of voicing. I probably wouldn't be much good at it anyway. Others have that talent. What brought it to mind, apart from the discussion on Reeds, was the reference to St. Vedast's, Foster Lane and the abundance of electronic mixturework I now have available on my Viscount/Ahlborn. 6 out of 42 stops, 25 digital ranks. When all added together at the top of a chorus they tend to scream, though this is not so noticeable when the reeds are added, probably because there are so many harmonics in use a few more or less don't make much difference. Bob Griffiths once advised me not to draw the octave coupler with the swell mixture at St James the Great, Leicester, as that also produced an effect like a beagle howling. (OK. Maybe you like Beagle's howling - but not in Bach.) The first time I played an electronic organ which remotely resembled the real thing was a 3 manual Copeman Hart at a teacher training college in South London. I wondered what magic Ernest had applied to produce this instrument. On reflection, apart from the use of good amplifiers and speakers, Ernest understood (understands) ensemble sound, and he had got the mixtures right. It is that fine balance between the unison and the mutations that result in a good mixture. The unisons must be in tune and well regulated, the mutations not too strong, but blending effectively. I have never, to my re-collection, heard a decent 2 rank mixture . They are too thin. This is true of St Vedast's and St Thomas' Farnham. But a 15 19 22 mixture is merely two unisons and a fifth. Let's move in our mind's ear to pipes. Why should this usually work when two ranks doesn't? I am not talking here about the specialised Sesquialtera or Cornet which is a completely different animal - quite apart from a cornet being five ranks. The french Mounted Cornets have a unique quality, partly I think from their location above the Great and directly behind the case - a sort of flue Fanfare Trumpet. We did talk about the use of the 17th in Harrison's mixtures some time back - I'm not too keen on them myself, as they produce a scratchy sound, though their purpose was, I believe, to blend the reeds in with the diapason chorus. But a good mixture needs to be brilliant without being shrill. It needs to shimmer on the top of the chorus, without drowning it. The reeds create a totally different palette. Maybe mixture pipes standing together on a soundboard produce a sympathetic effect - they "talk" to each other and reach a happy conclusion if they are well behaved. They must, of course, have a good family background and had a good upbringing. Dutch, german and french mixtures seem to fulfill these criteria more often than not, and as ever, a resonant building will blend the sounds into a coherent whole. So why is it 2 ranks bad, 4 ranks good? John Foss   ===== www.johnfoss.gr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/   ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Mixtures From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:55:05 EDT   In a message dated 8/11/2003 7:26:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, harfo32@yahoo.co.uk writes:   > now have available on my > Viscount/Ahlborn. 6 out of 42 stops, 25 digital ranks. > When all added together at the top of a chorus they   Is it really a Viscount(?) Ahlborn?   Should you be able to voice down the mixtures on that organ or is it = preset? Current Ahlborn-Galanti's can be toned down half of the mixture at a time. Actually, that is a good decision on the part of the company--wish i could = do that to my COS organ.   dale in Florida    
(back) Subject: Orwell, VT Hook (and 2-rank mixture) From: "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:31:46 -0500   Sunday night, I heard a truly marvelous instrument. Despite its being only 45 minutes from my house (close, for around here!) I hadn't been out to play or here the 1865? one manual Hook at the Congregational church in Orwell, VT. Karl Moyer played the 20th annual recital, and the OHS honored the instrument with a plaque and citation of its great historical and musical merit. Unfortunately, I didn't walk out with the program-only the middle page insert- so I can't give the whole program. There was a Bach prelude and fugue in G, assorted short pieces, a couple of hymns, Rheinberger op. 150/6 for violin (Mrs. Moyer) and organ, the Handel "famous largo" with a Polish 'cellist with local connections, and most of the Franck E-major chorale (without the sections that really need two manuals). Dr. Moyer's registrations were varied and ingenious, including playing a cantus firmus solo line in parallel fifths up an octave, making a remarkably effective contrast- the ear fills in the missing 8'.   The spec is a good example of what can be done with a one-manual, when a two manual of the same size would likely be less than exciting. In brief (and not with the exact names, but the right pitches):   16' gedeckt 8' Open 8' stopped 8' string 4' octave 4' flute 2' octave Mixture II 8' oboe TC   Pedal:   16' subbass 8' flute   Largely because of the manual 16 and the mixture (and this is a two-rank mixture that really works!), the organ has a depth of sound in the hymns that is truly amazing for an instrument of this size. Bob Newton considers this to be the best 1-manual Hook extant, and I've not heard anything to contradict him.   http://www.sover.net/~popel/agomain.html      
(back) Subject: Re: humperdinck's hansel & gretel From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:50:31 EDT   In a message dated 8/10/03 10:36:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, caskie@totalise.co.uk writes:   << While the overture itself is a lovely piece, Lemare also made an excellent transcription of the prayer/angel-scene from the opera, which was published in one of the blue/red/brown/i can't remember albums of organ music. It can be bought in sheet form now though. It too involves double pedalling, and much thumbing down, but has lovely colours and was once described as the "Franck choral that Wagner never wrote" ! I've played it in a couple of concerts and it's gone down a storm, but is about 10 minutes long. Best wishes Andrew Caskie >>   yes, i have that one also, but it doesn't stand alone in concert as well as the prelude does.  
(back) Subject: Web site update From: "Peter Rodwell" <iof@ctv.es> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:30:41 +0200   We have just finished a complete re-design of our Web site and it is on-line as of today (Monday 11th). The most important new feature is that our organ catalogue is now database driven - this means you can search the entire catalogue using specific criteria: 3 manual mechanical action organs in California built by Peter Rodwell, for example (not many, it turns out).   There are now many more organ photos, thanks to the generosity of organ builders who have kindly given me permission to use photos from their own Web sites.   We have also added two more catalogues, both of which are in their embryonic state right now: a catalogue of organ recordings and a directory of organ builders.   In all three cases there are also form pages that allow you to submit new entries on-line.   The URL is:   http://www.intorg.org/   I would like to thank David Scribner not only for donating space on his server but also for installing the necesary database software to make all of this work.   I have spent a lot of time testing everything before putting it on-line, but if anyone finds any glitches, please let me know.   Peter Rodwell International Organ Foundation.  
(back) Subject: RE: Mixtures From: "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:07:02 -0400   You wrote: So why is it 2 ranks bad, 4 ranks good? John Foss I'd like to see a response from Mr. Gluck concerning this. Anyone else agree? Andrew Mead            
(back) Subject: RE: Mixtures From: <REEDSTOP@prodigy.net> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:07:13 -0500   I would be curious to see what makes the determination if you go 2, 3, 4, 5 ranks, etc. My first pipe organ experience, the Great had a 4-rank, the Chor had a 3- rank, and the pedal had a 4-rank (also playable at 2- ranks.) The two organs I've played since then have had 3 on each manual. Is the presence of a 2-2/3' on the Great a factor? Both of these organs have one, whereas my first one did not.   Jeff    
(back) Subject: St. George's Manhattan (was Royal charter parishes) From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:23:43 -0400   David Baker asks:   > St. George's in Manhattan, which was an adjunct of Calvary Church = (where > Calvin Hampton played for many years) and which has a large, screechy M=F6ller? > Didn't E. Power Biggs, record on that instrument?   This is "A Festival of French organ music," dating from 1962. The = cover is abstract, a fanciful melange of colors in a vaguely paisley design.   Contents:   Widor, C. Toccata in F major (From the Fifth Organ Symphony) -- Sant-Saens, C. Fantasia in E-flat major -- Franck, C. Piece heroique = -- Gigout, E. Scherzo in E major -- Vierne, L. Final (From the First = Organ=20 Symphony) -- Alain, J. Litanies -- Dupre, M. Variations on a noel.   This recording provided my youthful introduction to some of this = repertoire, especially the Variations sur un Noel. Before ever buying it around = age 15, I remember listening to it in the downtown music store together with a clerk. The end of the Variations left us both a-gape with awe. "My, = that score must be black!" she exclaimed.   On the recording, the sound is exciting, although not particularly = French. Many people assure us, however, that this was a case of recording = engineers making an instrument sound better than it is. It was an Ernest White design: hence the ensemble sound is bottom-heavy and top-heavy, with = hardly anything in the middle. This recording has been discussed before, and = I remember someone saying that the rector of the church was a friend of = Biggs and he may have made the recording as a favor to him.          
(back) Subject: Re: Mixtures From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:20:44 -0700   I have been TOLD that odd-numbered mixtures are bad because as the ranks break, at every other break you would USUALLY have two quints and one unison, thus:   1 1/3 - 1 - 2/3 2 - 1 1/3 - 1 2 2/3 - 2 - 1 1/3 4 - 2 2/3 - 2   Granted, this can be compensated for by VERY careful voicing.   Some builders include the 2 2/3 Twelfth when the Great Mixture starts at 1 1/3 so that it can be added for French music ... French (romantic) organs typically have lower-pitched mixtures.   Cheers,   Bud     REEDSTOP@prodigy.net wrote: > I would be curious to see what makes the determination > if you go 2, 3, 4, 5 ranks, etc. My first pipe organ > experience, the Great had a 4-rank, the Chor had a 3- > rank, and the pedal had a 4-rank (also playable at 2- > ranks.) The two organs I've played since then have > had 3 on each manual. Is the presence of a 2-2/3' on > the Great a factor? Both of these organs have one, > whereas my first one did not. > > Jeff > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >        
(back) Subject: Re: Mixtures From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:22:14 EDT   Hi John:   With your Ahlborn/Gallanti situation you can readily experiment with Well tempers, meantone, and Equal temperments. You can determine in a few minutes which temperments cause the mixtures to scream and which don't. My theory, and I've tested it, that equal temperment tuned true cause problems with the quint ranks in mixtures, and to a greater extent any tierce rank in a mixture. I have Ahlborn sample boxes classic and 201. I decided to retune the pipes that play along with these in tartini/valloti 440. The sound is miraculously different and the mixtures don't scream. Everything sounds as a classic organ should. Nobody has said the organ is too loud since either. That was my clue that equal temperment was indeed causing the sound to frazzle to the point that people said the organ was too loud. It pained the ear and that's a normal response from the congregation. In other words they could hear what I heard, but the trained ear was able to put things into proper perspective. Course of action, choose a well temper that sounds good in all keys. Result: mixtures, mutations and reeds sound superb with the flues, and no more frazzle.   Even the derived pipe rank mutations sound better intune, in fact even acceptable.   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: Mixtures From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:33:56 -0400   At 11:22 AM 2003-08-11 -0400, you wrote: >Hi John: > >With your Ahlborn/Gallanti situation you can readily experiment >with Well tempers, meantone, and Equal temperments. You can >determine in a few minutes which temperments cause the mixtures to >scream and which don't. My theory, and I've tested it, that equal >temperment tuned true cause problems with the quint ranks in >mixtures, and to a greater extent any tierce rank in a mixture. I >have Ahlborn sample boxes classic and 201. I decided to retune >the pipes that play along with these in tartini/valloti 440. The sound >is miraculously different and the mixtures don't scream. Everything >sounds as a classic organ should. Nobody has said the organ is too >loud since either. That was my clue that equal temperment was >indeed causing the sound to frazzle to the point that people said >the organ was too loud. It pained the ear and that's a normal response >from the congregation. In other words they could hear what I heard, >but the trained ear was able to put things into proper perspective. >Course of action, choose a well temper that sounds good in all keys. >Result: mixtures, mutations and reeds sound superb with the >flues, and no more frazzle. > >Even the derived pipe rank mutations sound better intune, in fact >even acceptable. > >Ron Severin   Ron   In the Ahlborn Archive modules, the mixtures are single entities, in other =   words probably just a composite tone. In the organs, most of the time, = the mixtures are broken up into 2 parts, and each one is voiceable, and it makes a big difference, less clone like sounding if you know what I mean.   I find too, that electronic organs, tend to have electronic sounding mixtures, most likely from the fact that they are not independant ranks, but composite tones, so very few generators are used, short samples, all going through the same amp/speaker. I suppose the better, i.e. more expensive models do sometimes have better mixtures because of the added hardware, and more audio.   The nice thing about the Ahlborn units though, is you can play around with =   them, the voicing controls are quite flexible, and can get them to blend very well.   These are still the best sounding, most useful expander modules on the = market.   Arie V.   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arie Vandenberg Classic Organbuilders ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com Tel.: 905-475-1263  
(back) Subject: RE: Reed Performance From: "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:47:48 -0500   The quoted phrase actually should read "The proof of the pudding is in the tasting."   -----Original Message----- From: First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois [mailto:kzrev@rr1.net]=20 Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 8:40 AM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Reed Performance   I don't disagree with you, Sebastian, regarding the fact that "the proof is in the pudding" in the sound and performance of a pipe organ, regardless of mechanism. That being said, I will still make two points:   1. E-P has always seemed to me to be a Rube Goldberg invention of needless complexity compared to the simple elegance of either tracker or electro-mechanical.   2. Yes, reeds need to speak quickly, especially for repetitive passages--but that still doesn't negate my point that I find it quite unmusical when a reed stops abruptly at the end of a lyrical passage. It's like trying to nap to Brahms' lullaby played in a staccato stop-time mode!   Dennis Steckley ___________________________   " The assumption that mechanical action organs are somehow perfect and that=20 organs with assisted actions are their "opposites" has perpetuated many myths=20 about pipe organs and organ music. As long as we are fixated on what a pipe=20 organ should be, and do not factor in what it should do, the instrument and its=20 culture will suffer."   Sebastian M. Gluck       "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Re: Mixtures From: <Swedish5702@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:01:57 EDT   Hello John: I have perfect pitch and I can tell if I am listening to a fine organ or = I am in for an hour of misery just by listening when the player adds the = octave. Mixtures to me are like eating New York style Cheesecake. I can't get = enough of their shimmery beauty. Best, Craig in Pa.    
(back) Subject: Re: Mixtures From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:28:13 EDT   Hi Arie:   The next step in this experiment would be two identical pipe organs side by side including a mixture, a reed, flutes, and principals. One tuned equal and the other in well temper. Equal tuned fifths are 700 cents apart, the well tempers go from 696 cents on one side to 702 on the other. The tuning differnce is very small but the results are vastly different. The well temper will win every time. I'd like to see, would love to see this experiment take place during a convention perhaps. Ask organists to chose sound A or sound B. short examples played on both. I think it will lay to rest the fears of moving away from equal temperment and still be able to play in all keys major and minor. Bach produced the well tempered 48 for Clavichord, and as erroniously ascribed to equal temperment. It will probably take a 100 years to totally make right this error. Equal temperment was known as early as the 17th century and discarded out of hand. Bach certainly knew of it, and could never bring himself to embrace it, but yet he gets the blame. There are hundreds of quotations in teaching manuals that extol this error. Equal temperment came in with the industrial revolution as a means to standardize tuning. A was chosen as the temperment standard first at 435, later at 440, and dealing with orchestral strings 442 or 444. One American builder of the 19th century even went as high as A=3D459. he later went back to retune lower. IIRC this was the RC cathedral in either Rochester, or Buffalo NY. Oh, you could play in all keys, but they were all out of tune at the same rate in Equal. The first hit soon after this change to Equal was to cut back or eliminate mixtures altogether. Mutations were curtailed, reeds got darker, and in many cases 2' stops were eliminated except on very complete larger organs. Tonal color then came from reeds and keen strings, and exaggerated flue scales, all to compensate the out of tuneness of Equal. People were never entirely happy with the results but never knew there was an alternative. Their remarks over the last 100 years atest to their displeasure but what to do. I say go back and rediscover the truth. Oh, you heard these in print many, many times, words like scratchy, sizzle, wooly, and on the baroque side snarly, screachy. What caused those remarks? You guessed it..............Equal temperment.   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: More MP3 recordings from Holy Cross Lutheran O'Fallon, MO From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:09:31 -0400   I cannot open that URL, - is it correct?   Bob Conway   At 09:18 PM 8/10/03 -0700, you wrote:   >I finally have made mp3's of when our instrumental >group played for memorial day weekend. This is a >completely volunteer group made up of mostly >highschool kids and a few adults (parents). This >group consisted of 5 flutes, 4 clarinets, 2 alto sax, >1 tenor sax, 3 trumpets, 1 horn, 3 trombones, 2 tubas, >and snare drum. All of that crammed into a very small >balcony, with yours truly standing on a 2 step little >ladder to get high enough so everyone could see me >over the organ console. Hope you enjoy, its not to be >compared to any philharmonic or symphony, we usually >just get two 90 minute rehearsals before the Sunday we >are going to play. > >yahoo.briefcase.com/tlevans@sbcglobal.net > >It is in the Instrumental Ensemble folder. > >Travis > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! >http://sbc.yahoo.com >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Re: More MP3 recordings from Holy Cross Lutheran O'Fallon, MO From: "Travis L. Evans" <tevansmo@prodigy.net> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:20:12 -0700 (PDT)   so sorry, it should be   briefcase.yahoo.com/tlevans@sbcglobal.net   __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: More MP3 recordings from Holy Cross Lutheran O'Fallon, MO From: "David Evangelides" <davide@theatreorgans.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:29:14 -0500   Thanks Travis for the URL, and for the music. It's really good, and I enjoy listening to these selections.   David E   David Evangelides Colorado Springs, Colorado     -----Original Message----- From: "Travis L. Evans" <tevansmo@prodigy.net> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:20:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: More MP3 recordings from Holy Cross Lutheran O'Fallon, MO   > so sorry, it should be > > briefcase.yahoo.com/tlevans@sbcglobal.net > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >      
(back) Subject: THANK YOU! From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:01:25 -0700   Dear Friends and Colleagues,   The past few weeks have been difficult at best. They would have been MUCH more difficult without your love, prayers, concern, and financial assistance. I have been quite overwhelmed by your generosity in ALL those things, but I really shouldn't be surprised ... most of you ARE my online family (and Christian community).   My family and I are fine. We are waiting to hear if our application for a house in San Diego has been approved. As soon as it is, WE'RE OUTTA HERE (grin).   I think we'll still be in Time-Warner's service area, so the e-mail addy MAY not change; I'll post the snail mail as soon as I know it.   In the interim, you can use   Raymond H. Clark c/o Richard Corson 2750 Wheatstone Street, Space 123 San Diego CA 92111-5450   since I don't know exactly when we're moving.   Cheers,   Bud