PipeChat Digest #3883 - Saturday, August 16, 2003
 
Re: Celestes/Mixture pipes
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
Re: Partial Ranks
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Open Letter
  by "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com>
Re: Partial Ranks
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Partial Ranks
  by "M Fox" <ophicleide16@direcway.com>
RELEVANCE ... *you* decide whether it's off-topic or not (X-posted)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Question
  by "Geri Schipper" <geriskip@juno.com>
IRC tonight
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: IRC tonight
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: Wedding Music
  by "Bruce Cornely" <cremona@cervo.net>
Re: Organus interruptus
  by "Bruce Cornely" <cremona@cervo.net>
RE: "Feelings" Funeral
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Re: partial ranks
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Re: celestes
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
The annual Dutch dash (2003) part two
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Celestes/Mixture pipes From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:12:49 EDT   In a message dated 8/15/2003 10:17:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mvfranch@hotmail.com writes:     > Can anyone educate me on how far down mixtures, partials and celeste = ranks > go? Our organ at church is missing the first octave (notes 1 - 12) of = the > following ranks (by missing I mean they're "dead" notes. I have not = checked > the chamber to see if there are actually pipes there): > > Choir: 8' Erzahler Celeste > Tierce > Swell: Violone Celeste > > Is there a website, or another reference point that you can recommend = that > explains how far certain ranks go, and where the breaks are on mixtures? = I > am able to hear the breaks on the mixtures, but would like to have a > reference to look at. >   differen builders and different organs from a particular builder will vary = on the compass of celeste Ranks. sometimes using a 49-note celeste rank is a =   matter of economics, as the bottom 12 pipes of an 8-foot stop are the most =   expensive to make (i.e. material used, and labor costs). Sometimes the = celestes will have a compass to GG or at other times all the way to CC, depending = on whether the builder thinks that the expense is justified.   regarding mixture breaks, there are no hard or fast rules about where and = how frequently the breaks occur. this is part of the skills applied by a tonal =   director based (mostly) on past experience and judgement based on the particulars of the room for which the organ is designed. For example, I = service a goodly number of late-vintage Moller organs with a unit Principal (usually = at 8 - 4 - 2) with a iii-IV mixture. The composition and breaking pattern of each mixture is defferent from organ to organ with a mojority of the range = covered by 4 ranks with breaks varying from 6 to 12 notes between breaks.   Rick in VA    
(back) Subject: Re: Partial Ranks From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:34:31 EDT   >If you've ever played the fourth movement of the Widor fifth symphony, = you >know that God intended string celestes to play all the way down to low = C...   Mark has a good point here...I also hate it when I've got celestes coupled = to the pedal and the low octave isn't there. It's a rather dry sound.   In our new organ, all the celestes (16 sets!!!) will go down to low C, = with one exception....the 8' Unda Maris on the Choir. I'm not sure why the builders decided on that one lowly rank to only be 49 notes--I may have to = beg hard to get the extra 12 notes. The 8' Dulciana will be 61 notes, however.   Our Mounted Cornet V will be a Tenor C stop, which for my use will be more =   than enough notes. The only other partial compass stops are the 3 sets of =   chimes--two in the main organ and one in the Celestial, and the = Glockenspiel which will be 49 notes.   What really annoys me, though, is when I play an organ that has celestes = that go to low G or F. As I'm playing I always get excited that the rank will = be full compass, and then I'll hit low D flat, and be disappointed...it's like a teaser from the organ = builder, but I see it as a mean trick. The cost for the few extra pipes isn't = going to be that much in the scheme of things, put the last 4 or 5 pipes in.   Monty Bennett Friendship Baptist Church Charlotte, NC    
(back) Subject: Open Letter From: "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:59:03 -0400   Through PipeChat (see http://www.pipechat.org), I have been told about a letter allegedly sent by Duel Smith, rector, to parishioners of St. Michaels in the Diocese of Fort Worth, TX. I have also read a "pastoral" letter from Bishop Iker, found on the Diocese's website. Both of these express, in shockingly strong language, their opposition to the recent consecration of a bishop, whose consecration they opposed. I have also read a letter allegedly sent by a parishioner to Presiding Bishop Griswold detailing actions during the context of a worship service that are sickening and impossible to understand.   Regardless of the validity of the reasons for opposing the consecration, I respectfully suggest, Fr. Smith and Bishop Iker, that you have sticks in your eyes. Fr. Smith's letter refers to the new bishop as an "sexually active unrepentant sinner". Yet Fr. Smith's actions, as detailed in the parishioner's letter, if true in even the smallest detail, are appalling beyond words. Your entire behavior is deeply, profoundly sinful because it is not just unloving, it is outright, unashamedly hateful. Whether you are right or wrong is beside the point. You cannot behave in this manner and expect to be accorded any respect nor any consideration for your position. I, for one, will not be browbeaten into adopting a particular point of view simply because you wear round collars.   If the parishioner's letter is true, I think that Hitler would have been proud of you, Fr. Smith, as would the crusaders of the middle ages (or whenever; you know what I mean).   Gentlemen: Jesus knew the art of persuasion by expressing love for the sinner while hating the sin. (I express no opinion regarding the alleged "sinfulness" of active homosexuality. Furthermore, I will make up my own mind in my own good time, thank you.) You appear to have forgotten that as direct descendants of the apostles and disciples, by virtue of ordination, you don't have any choice in the matter: you MUST love the sinner. If you can't do that, take off your collar and go into the confessional yourself.   Otherwise, it is time for you to find another denomination to embarrass. You certainly are not Anglicans.   Sincerely,   David G. Baker    
(back) Subject: Re: Partial Ranks From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:40:21 -0700     Monty wrote:   > Our Mounted Cornet V will be a Tenor C stop, which for my use will be > more than enough notes.     Bud here:     But what if the NEXT organist wants to play a Basse de Tierce, or reinforce a Basse de Trompette with the Cornet in the bass?? Presumably this organ will serve for at LEAST the next hundred years or so.   If there are MULTIPLE cornets, both composed and decomposed, and at least one STRONG one is full-compass, then fine.   I think we have an obligation to design organs   (1) for what the LITERATURE demands, and   (2) beyond our own idiosyncrasies that will serve succeeding GENERATIONS of organists. I have my own quirks, but they weren't reflected in the stoplist for St. Matthew's.   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: Partial Ranks From: "M Fox" <ophicleide16@direcway.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:43:14 -0700     ----- Original Message ----- From: RMB10@aol.com To: pipechat@pipechat.org >In our new organ, all the celestes (16 sets!!!) will go down to low C, = with one exception....the 8' Unda Maris on the Choir. I'm >not sure why = the builders decided on that one lowly rank to only be 49 notes--I may = have to beg hard to get the extra 12 notes. >The 8' Dulciana will be 61 = notes, however.   I think it is generally agreed that string celestes ideally ought to be = carried down to CC, but the bottom octave of a flute celeste can be = omitted without real musical loss. FWIW, I go along with that on empirical = grounds -- there aren't enough overtones beating at the bottom of a flute = celeste to make the effect worthwhile, and the thinner sound of the single = rank at the bottom may actually be helpful to the texture.   MAF    
(back) Subject: RELEVANCE ... *you* decide whether it's off-topic or not (X-posted) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:59:52 -0700   Friends:   I have received a couple of e-mails upbraiding me privately for posting the letters I posted concerning the Diocese of Ft. Worth, etc.   Here's my point: those of us who are Anglicans have to MINISTER and WORSHIP in the middle of this mess.   HOW do we do THAT?   It's already spilled over into ELCA ... how long will it be before the battle is joined in the rest of the churches?   *I* don't have the luxury of sticking my head in the sand and saying "I don't care about gay marriage or racism or any of those other political issues; I just want to talk about organs and organ music," as one correspondent did.   Folks, it DOES affect us, both as individuals, and as musical ministers of the Word.   Bud      
(back) Subject: Question From: "Geri Schipper" <geriskip@juno.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:41:39 -0400   Greetings. Am looking for a copy of the story about the organist who got her position by playing the "National Anthem" after the pastor finished asking for money.   Thanks, Geri  
(back) Subject: IRC tonight From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:14:40 -0700   I'm not at ALL sure I want to come to chat tonight after what's been going on THIS day (chuckle), but I suppose I'll be there.   9 p.m., US Eastern Time.   Directions on the Pipechat homepage.   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: IRC tonight From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:14:02 -0400   At 05:14 PM 8/15/03 -0700, Bud wrote:   >I'm not at ALL sure I want to come to chat tonight after what's been = going >on THIS day (chuckle), but I suppose I'll be there.   Bud,   You should be there, - after all you started it!   Bob Conway        
(back) Subject: Re: Wedding Music From: "Bruce Cornely" <cremona@cervo.net> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:45:51 -0400   From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> <I always point out to wedding couples that Lohengrin left the day after = the wedding and was never seen again. That usually gets me out of playing = "Here Comes the Bride"!>   Unfortunately, the Trumpet Tunes and Voluntaries don't have a much better track record! ;-)     Scritchies and Haruffarrroooo-bow-ha-wow...   Unkie...   Bruce, with Miles, Molly and Degui in the Muttastery at HowlingAcres http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 Help Some Animals Free: http://tinyurl.com/2j5i and http://pets.care2.com/welcome?w=3D308025421 GET PAID to shop: http://ct.par32.com/?id=3D473FAAG381F58      
(back) Subject: Re: Organus interruptus From: "Bruce Cornely" <cremona@cervo.net> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:01:52 -0400   <Well, at next Mass the priest was preaching a lengthy sermon and Vierne = cut him off by beginning to play. When later the priest asked him why he had done it, Vierne said "I thought you had talked long enough." >   My favorite organus interruptus story occurred on Memorial Day in an RC church. I happened to be showing a visiting friend around town and we walked into the RC church during the noon Mass. The lector had just announced the offering and the organ then followed with the announcement = of the Offertory Hymn, "My Country, 'Tis of Thee." She began playing the introduction, and then, armed with goose-neck mike, launched into the = first stanza from her perch in the west gallery. As soon as the first stanza began the lector remembered that he had not announced the second = collection, and returned to the lecturn and interrupted the hymn with the = announcement, after which the organist continued (as though dropping the needle exactly where she was interrupted). It sounded like this: "My Country, 'tis of thee, sweet land of lib- the second collection will = be for the orphans at St. Gretchen's please be generous -berty, of thee I = sing, land where...." It was hilarious and my friend and I barely made it out of the church = before dissolving into gales of laughter!     Scritchies and Haruffarrroooo-bow-ha-wow...   Unkie...   Bruce, with Miles, Molly and Degui in the Muttastery at HowlingAcres http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 Help Some Animals Free: http://tinyurl.com/2j5i and http://pets.care2.com/welcome?w=3D308025421 GET PAID to shop: http://ct.par32.com/?id=3D473FAAG381F58      
(back) Subject: RE: "Feelings" Funeral From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:14:00 -0500   Oh, that was cruel =96 I loved every minute of it. Thanks.     Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Robert Ridgeway   Here is an account of a funeral service that was sent to me by a friend.=A0 I can just envision this entire episode.=A0 In spite of the seriousness of the event I think the way it unfolded is hilarious.     The =93Feelings =93 Funeral        
(back) Subject: Re: partial ranks From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:32:33 -0500   ----- Original Message ----- From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 10:21 AM Subject: Re: partial ranks     > In a message dated 8/15/03 7:32:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > quilisma@socal.rr.com writes: > > << I'm not convinced that the bottom octave of a Celeste is all THAT > much of a luxury ... surely haskelled basses could be used. >> > > but it sure is nice when it goes down to the low G or F. > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!"   It depends to some extent on the particular celeste. With Viola da Gamba pipes, it may be desirable to go to low C or (as a compromise) to low G. = On the other hand, almost nobody takes a Flute Celeste below tenor C. It = must be borne in mind that the cost of the lowest octave of an 8' stop is = pretty much the cost of the whole rest of the rank. In this sort of thing, however, on the whole organbuilders are prepared to do what the customer wants. So do you want a full compass celeste or an additional stop of 4' pitch or above? That is often what it comes down to.   John Speller    
(back) Subject: Re: celestes From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:06:21 EDT   HI ALL.   On a Reuter in Cinti I had 2 celestes on the swell. One a Viola with separate draw celeste and a II Voix Celeste. ON both, the main rank went down to low C and the other rank stopped at = tenor C. Simply tuned the bottom 12 of the Salicional as celeste to the Viola.   Strings to the bottom and NO MUD as pointed out earlier.   dale in Florida   For you CCM type people it was Pleasant Ridge Presbyterian.    
(back) Subject: The annual Dutch dash (2003) part two From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:04:18 +0100 (BST)   The Walcker company were, of course, the pioneers of the great German romantic organ tradition; inventing the keg-laden or spring chest which made the German style roll-schweller a possibility. By incorporating many varied flute and mild string tones, the addition and subtraction of stops, using the crescendo device, enabled an expressive type of instrument without recourse to swell boxes. Also, Walcker had, in the 19th century, experimented with chimneys and draughts in the search for weighter bass sounds. Where swell boxes existed, they were used for the tiny free reed ranks of the harmonium type and perhaps for a very restrained echo organ. If one reads the conventional wisdom of the organ historian, the impression that German romantic organs never strayed far from the baroque roots of the organ-building tradition, is one which I had always believed.   Clearly, by 1914, something dramatic had happened, for the instrument at Doesburg was certainly no baroque organ with electric action and a roll-schweller pedal!   Perhaps one might yet hear basses of such astounding power in America or on a theatre organ, but I have never, ever, heard such profoundly powerful rumblings on another organ; the basses of Arthur Harrison positively baroque by way of comparison. The whole building seemed to shake as those thundering foundation stops slowly boomed into life. Nevertheless, there can be no denying that the pedal reeds were nothing short of superb.   Any politician who seeks to know the difference between suppression and oppression should go to Doesburg to listen to the upperwork. With an almost total lack of brilliance and definition, this instrument actually sounds quite dull; particularly when the heavy foundation stops are drawn.   That stated, the voicing of the fluework is of a very high order indeed, with some exquisite flutes and mild strings.   Hearing Reger played on a 1914 Walcker was something of a revelation. The complex nature of Reger's counterpoint was almost totally lost on this instrument, and the organist could probably have busked his way through without anyone realising. In a flash, I began to understand the musical reaction against the sort of organ tone I was hearing, and the work of the organ reform movement in Germany after the first world war. I also realised that what I had associated with the German romantic organ, was either the sound of Steinmeyer AFTER the influence of the organ reform movement had made its mark, or before the heavily opaque romanticism of the early 20th century had manifested itself.   I had come to learn, and I was not disappointed!   Switching to the small two-manual Flentrop organ of 1953, Theo Jellma played the much under-rated 3rd Sonata by Paul Hindemith. With only a dozen or so speaking stops, this beautiful instrument filled the large church with clear, bold sound. Now able to hear every note, I was impressed by a fine performance of this tricky work, which both enchanted in the quieter moments, and fairly danced in the last movement. With the use of mixed modes and even new modes, Hindemith's music can be a bit disconcerting to play, because it goes where one sometimes least expects, and sets the odd elephant trap for the unsuspecting. A couple of wrong notes did not, however, spoil an otherwise magnificent performance.   The final work was the Bach Passacaglia played on the Walcker organ again, but using the 1912 edition as penned by Widor and Schweitzer. (How typically Dutch can an organist get?)   It sounded accurate enough, but to be honest, I couldn't really have known if it hadn't been. I think, on balance, I would much prefer to have heard this stupendous work played on the Flentrop!   Born in 1955, Theo Jellma is a fine organist who teaches at both the Groningen and Arnhem conservatories. He is alo organist of the Martinikerk at Franeker.         To be continued......     ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/