PipeChat Digest #3889 - Tuesday, August 19, 2003
 
Bavokerk tuning
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: The annual Dutch dash (2003) part five
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
Re: Hagerbeer/Schnitger in Alkammar. Was: Bavokerk tuning
  by "Felix Hell" <Hell-Felix@t-online.de>
Suggestions for grade school aged organ method
  by "Christopher McCloskey" <cmccloskey@stbrnadet.org>
Re: Hagerbeer/Schnitger in Alkammar. Was: Bavokerk tuning
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Suggestions for grade school aged organ method
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Music I never heard before
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Rieger-Kloss
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Rieger-Kloss
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Rieger-Kloss
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Rieger-Kloss in Illinois
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Rieger-Kloss
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Bavokerk tuning
  by "D. Keith Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com>
RE: Celestes/Mixture pipes
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
composing and decomposing Cornets (grin)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Cornets, cont.
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: partial ranks
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: Rieger-Kloss in Illinois
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
The Irreplaceable Bud.
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: Bavokerk tuning
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
old sharp tunings
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
IRC tonight?
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: IRC tonight?
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
RE: Bavokerk tuning
  by "Mark & Cinda Towne" <mstowne@concentric.net>
Tuesday IRC
  by "mack02445" <mack02445@mindspring.com>
bottom octaves of "celestes"
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Bavokerk tuning
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
 

(back) Subject: Bavokerk tuning From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:12:30 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   The tuning of the Bavo orgel is definitely equal tempered, but I do not have details of the actual pitch.   Actually, in a land awash with baroque organs, it is surprising that I have only come aross a few which are tuned to mean-tone or other tuning systems, though the old Hagabeer organ at Alkmaar is definitely mean-tone tuned. It is so long since I played even a harpsichord tuned to mean-tone, it came as quite a shock to hear it again.   As Ron states, the organ just sings at Haarlem.....that is the perfect description!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK         --- RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: > Hi Colin: > > What is the temperment used in St. Bavo's. organ? I > have a recording > of this instrument by another organist last name Von > Marion. It had > a warm romantic flavor.   ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: The annual Dutch dash (2003) part five From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:15:01 -0400   At 12:16 AM 2003-08-19 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Colin: > >What is the temperment used in St. Bavo's. organ? I have a recording >of this instrument by another organist last name Von Marion. It had >a warm romantic flavor. It gave a totally different impression from the >close mic'd Biggs recordings. The organ sang. Tierce's in the mixtures >wouldn't sound right in modern tuning, would they? > >Ron Severin     Ron,   I think if there is a descriptive word about older Dutch organs in general =   it would be they "sing". They have a very clear, bold, melodic tone about =   them. Most Dutch organs are not that large, a lot of them not more than = 20 stops, yet capable of leading a congregation of 500 to 750 people. They also tend not to be overly loud, but broad sounding in their environment, and so they make for a very comfortable listening experience.   Arie V.   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arie Vandenberg Classic Organbuilders ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com Tel.: 905-475-1263  
(back) Subject: Re: Hagerbeer/Schnitger in Alkammar. Was: Bavokerk tuning From: "Felix Hell" <Hell-Felix@t-online.de> Date: 19 Aug 2003 13:27 GMT   Dear Colin and list,   Actually, I just had a three hour session with Pieter van Dijk at the Hager= beer/Schnitger in Grote St. Laurenskerk in Alkmaar yesterday. Needless to s= ay, that this was an unforgettable experience with a wonderful person and t= eacher at an unbelievable majestic organ. I could go on and on....   Anyway, the tuning is equally tempered, with a1 at 415 Hz, wind pressure: 7= 6 mm WS (water column)   Felix =20   "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Hello, >=20 > The tuning of the Bavo orgel is definitely equal > tempered, but I do not have details of the actual > pitch. >=20 > Actually, in a land awash with baroque organs, it is > surprising that I have only come aross a few which are > tuned to mean-tone or other tuning systems, though the > old Hagabeer organ at Alkmaar is definitely mean-tone > tuned.=20    
(back) Subject: Suggestions for grade school aged organ method From: "Christopher McCloskey" <cmccloskey@stbrnadet.org> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:07:28 -0400   Greetings all   Several people from the parish grade school have asked about organ lessons and I am looking for suggestions for organ methods suitable for = the 5-8th grade age range. All the students who have inquired so far read = music and have had a few years of piano lessons so I dont need to teach them the basics but introduce them to correct organ technique etc. Having been subjected to musical gems such as "The Patio Polka" in my beginning books = as a child I am hoping to give them music that is a little more enjoyable. = Any thoughts??     Christopher McCloskey St. Bernadette Parish cmccloskey@stbrnadet.org 245 Azalea Dr. Monroeville PA 15146 412.373.0050    
(back) Subject: Re: Hagerbeer/Schnitger in Alkammar. Was: Bavokerk tuning From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:53:48 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   Thanks to Felix for his reply, because I had made a mistake regarding Alkmaar.   In referring to mean tone tuning at Alkmaar, I was actually thinking of the much older organ there, which has been restored recently and which I heard last year.   I was therefore referring to the old organ of 1511 by van Covelens as restored by Flentrop.   However, Felix and myself can certainly be in absolute agreement about the fabulous quality of sound that the Schnitger makes. To play that organ is to have an indelible memory for life.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK       ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Suggestions for grade school aged organ method From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:08:56 EDT   Hi:   THE ONE stop solution for your request is:   Wayne Leupold Editions 8510 Triad Drive Colfax, NC27325 336-996-8445     HE has a huge line of successful and fun teaching music for every age.   I am sure a Google would find his web or e mail.   dale in Florida    
(back) Subject: Music I never heard before From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:15:19 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   Following on slightly from my recent dash to Holland, I heard various pieces I have never heard previously, as well as hear music on CD which I have never heard of.   However, Arie Vandenberg confirmed my opinion that Dutch organs sing beautifully, and Ron Severin made the point about warmth of tonal quality at Haarlem.   A few people have contacted me to ask about the romantic programe at Haarlem which I heard, so here is the full programme as played by Jos van der Kooy:-   Alphonse Mailly (who taught Lemmens in Belgium)   Marche Solemnelle   Frank Bridge - Adagio in E major   Flor Peeters - Toccata, Fugue & Hymn on "Ave Maris Stella"   van den Gheyn - Preludium Piece Fugee   Bach - The big Passacaglia   Parry - Chorale Prelude on "Abide with me"   Max Reger - Introduction and Passacaglia in F minor Opus 63   That's quite a programme on a baroque organ!!   Moving swiftly on, I came across a real little "gem" of a piece by Klaas Bolt, which he first improvised and then wrote down. It is a little choral prelude on "Psalm 75" which is the equal of Bach.....it is a tiny joylet....get hold of it.   Then another CD, with Jos van der Kooy at Haarlem again. The CD is by InterSound no. DDD1013.   On this disc, he plays two Saetas (Sonatas?) no's 2 and 4, by Eduardo Garcia Torres (1872-1939), which are really rather good; hovering between late romantic and modernity. Torres was, apparently, the organist of Seville Cathedral, and the music is very, very interesting.   For anyone who wants to see a lovely set of pictures of the beautiful organ case at Monnickendam, I would suggest browsing Het Orgel, or going to the following link:- http://www.waterlandinfo.nl/monnickendam/kerk.htm   For the most horrific Cavaille-Coll experience, go to the following and weep!   http://www.hetorgel.nl/e2003-04a.htm   I was only searching for the composer Alphonse Mailly, and this is what hit me!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK       ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Rieger-Kloss From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:56:50 -0400   On 8/17/03 1:09 PM, "james nerstheimer" <enigma1685@hotmail.com> wrote:   > Also, there is a very large > instrument in Roselle, Illinois which I have not seen yet. I don't = remember > which Lutheran church it is--Trinity I think. Anyone help me out here?   Somebody on one of these lists is familiar with that place and instrument. Don't recall the name, and I think he's not listing now. But I think = Travis Evans is/was a school friend of his; is Travis on this list?   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Rieger-Kloss From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:06:22 -0400   On 8/17/03 1:09 PM, "james nerstheimer" <enigma1685@hotmail.com> wrote:   > Also, there is a very large > instrument in Roselle, Illinois which I have not seen yet. I don't = remember > which Lutheran church it is--Trinity I think. Anyone help me out here?   Found their website at www.trinityroselle.org   No info there. So I sent their music man an e-mail query. We'll see what transpires.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Rieger-Kloss From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:17:13 -0400   On 8/19/03 1:06 PM, "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> wrote:   > Found their website at www.trinityroselle.org > > No info there. So I sent their music man an e-mail query. We'll see = what > transpires. > Sorry; make that www.trinityroselle.com   But don't bother; it's utterly noninformative. Mail to music folk = bounced, so now I've addressed the parish office.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Rieger-Kloss in Illinois From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:31:34 -0700   Here 'tis ...   http://www.rieger-kloss.com/our_organs/3697.html   Cheers,   Bud   Alan Freed wrote: > On 8/19/03 1:06 PM, "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> wrote: > > >>Found their website at www.trinityroselle.org >> >>No info there. So I sent their music man an e-mail query. We'll see = what >>transpires. >> > > Sorry; make that www.trinityroselle.com > > But don't bother; it's utterly noninformative. Mail to music folk = bounced, > so now I've addressed the parish office. > > Alan > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >        
(back) Subject: Re: Rieger-Kloss From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:36:07 -0700   I went back and read the stop-list.   Um ... exactly WHAT literature is this organ designed to play? I'm an organist, not a builder, so I get to ASK (chuckle).   It's basically a two-manual organ of SOME sort scattered willy-nilly over four manuals; most of the stops one would need on the Positive are on the secondary Great.   Curious ...   Cheers,   Bud   Alan Freed wrote: > On 8/19/03 1:06 PM, "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> wrote: > > >>Found their website at www.trinityroselle.org >> >>No info there. So I sent their music man an e-mail query. We'll see = what >>transpires. >> > > Sorry; make that www.trinityroselle.com > > But don't bother; it's utterly noninformative. Mail to music folk = bounced, > so now I've addressed the parish office. > > Alan > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >        
(back) Subject: Re: Bavokerk tuning From: "D. Keith Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:34:39 -0700 (PDT)   Many years ago, I bought a recordinbg of E. Power Biggs playing Bach on = the St. Bavo Organ. One of the pieces was the Prelude and Fugue in E Flat = Major (St. Ann's). I thought I had the turntable on the wrong speed, but later discovered = that this organ is almost a minor third sharp to A=3D440. D. Keith Morgan     Colin Mitchell <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Hello,   The tuning of the Bavo orgel is definitely equal tempered, but I do not have details of the actual pitch.   Actually, in a land awash with baroque organs, it is surprising that I have only come aross a few which are tuned to mean-tone or other tuning systems, though the old Hagabeer organ at Alkmaar is definitely mean-tone tuned. It is so long since I played even a harpsichord tuned to mean-tone, it came as quite a shock to hear it again.   As Ron states, the organ just sings at Haarlem.....that is the perfect description!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK         --- RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: > Hi Colin: > > What is the temperment used in St. Bavo's. organ? I > have a recording > of this instrument by another organist last name Von > Marion. It had > a warm romantic flavor.   ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org         --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software  
(back) Subject: RE: Celestes/Mixture pipes From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:03:02 -0400   I'd be very surprised if there is a standard in this regard. It all = depends on the taste of the builder or designer, the size of the space, = and last not but least the owner's budget.   It is traditional for a mounted cornet to start at middle C or slightly = lower (perhaps someone can fill us in if there is an exact standard in = this: French organs have always been relatively standardized). = Otherwise there is no universal practice, but it is quite common for = celeste ranks to lack the lowest octave. This isn't just from = expediency: the vibrations in such a low register are so slow that an = undulation great enough to produce a noticeable celeste effect would = also make the pipes significantly out of tune.   Mixture breaks are also a matter of a builder's taste, philosophy, and = adaptation to the room.    
(back) Subject: composing and decomposing Cornets (grin) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:24:24 -0700   Yes and no ... the French baroque RECIT cornet, often only III ranks (2 2/3', 2', 1 3/5' often began at middle c or tenor c, because French baroque Recit KEYBOARDS only went DOWN to middle c (and less often tenor c).   A Bourdon 8' and a Prestant 4' would have been available separately, and usually a Hautbois or Voix Humaine.   But I think you'll find that the Cornet of the G.O., whether composed or decomposed, ran the full gamut. Otherwise there would be no purpose in having the Gros Nasard 5 1/3 and/or the (rarer) Gros Tierce 3 1/5 available for the 16' series Grand or Gros Cornet.   MANY pieces of the period CALL for a jeu de tierce or cornet in the bass that runs the full gamut; in addition, it was needed to give additional "clang" to the Trompette.   There needs to be *one* full-compass cornet in ANY organ of ANY size, if one is to play the literature with any degree of authenticity.   Cheers,   Bud   Emmons, Paul wrote: > I'd be very surprised if there is a standard in this regard. It all = depends on the taste of the builder or designer, the size of the space, = and last not but least the owner's budget. > > It is traditional for a mounted cornet to start at middle C or slightly = lower (perhaps someone can fill us in if there is an exact standard in = this: French organs have always been relatively standardized). Otherwise = there is no universal practice, but it is quite common for celeste ranks = to lack the lowest octave. This isn't just from expediency: the = vibrations in such a low register are so slow that an undulation great = enough to produce a noticeable celeste effect would also make the pipes = significantly out of tune. > > Mixture breaks are also a matter of a builder's taste, philosophy, and = adaptation to the room. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >        
(back) Subject: Cornets, cont. From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:31:31 -0700   Go to the literature ... when Couperin specifies a Duo with the Jeu de Tierce in both hands (but on separate manuals) he assumes a full compass for the left hand. In addition, he probably would have drawn the Gros Nasard (and the Gros Tierce, if it was available) in the left hand, which would give a resultant 16' tone.   Those French Jeux de Tierce are FIERY ... not at ALL like American neo-German-baroque mutations. For one thing, they're WIDE-scale, unlike the German Sesquialtera.   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: partial ranks From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:37:23 -0400   In a message dated 8/15/2003 2:46:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, = mlhopper@msn.com writes:   > If you've ever played the fourth movement of the Widor fifth symphony, = you know that God intended string celestes to play all the way down to low = C...   World without end...AMEN! I totally agree!   Scott Foppiano (Playing the mighty Kotzschmar Municipal Organ in concert here in = Portland, Maine on Thursday night!)  
(back) Subject: Re: Rieger-Kloss in Illinois From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:30:06 -0400   On 8/19/03 1:31 PM, "quilisma@socal.rr.com" <quilisma@socal.rr.com> the infamous BUD wrote:   > Here 'tis ... > > http://www.rieger-kloss.com/our_organs/3697.html > Now, how'd you do THAT? You've got to've known that it was a = Rieger-Kloss, so you went at it from the builder. OK. That's fair. I didn't know = that. So I'll have to let you win the race (this time).   But how'd you know THAT? Just your encyclopedic cranium, obviously. = Well, I (among many others) am very glad that it is there. We all profit from = it.   Alan    
(back) Subject: The Irreplaceable Bud. From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:48:28 -0400   Come now, Alan, I don't think that Bud is infamous!   Incredible, In-exhaustible, Irrepressible, Inextinguishable, maybe. In terra pax, even! Perhaps I mean that the pax is in terror of Bud!   But not INFAMOUS! Bob   At 05:30 PM 8/19/03 -0400, you wrote:   >On 8/19/03 1:31 PM, "quilisma@socal.rr.com" <quilisma@socal.rr.com> the >infamous BUD wrote: > > > Here 'tis ... > > > > http://www.rieger-kloss.com/our_organs/3697.html > > >Now, how'd you do THAT? You've got to've known that it was a = Rieger-Kloss, >so you went at it from the builder. OK. That's fair. I didn't know = that. >So I'll have to let you win the race (this time). > >But how'd you know THAT? Just your encyclopedic cranium, obviously. = Well, >I (among many others) am very glad that it is there. We all profit from = it. > >Alan      
(back) Subject: Re: Bavokerk tuning From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:19:38 -0400   On 8/19/03 1:34 PM, "D. Keith Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com> wrote:   > I thought I had the turntable on the wrong speed, but later discovered th= at > this organ is almost a minor third sharp to A=3D440.   U u u u u h. Keith, I=B9ve got to think about that a bit. If an organ is =B3a minor third sharp=B2 (i.e., from A to C?) would it not be up not =B3to A=3D440=B2 but up to something like almost =B3A=3D512=B2 Hz?   I don=B9t know about this stuff, but hope somebody does. Help me out.   I used to keep a list of the Hz of every key of the piano, but it=B9s LONG lost. I should dig into Google, I guess.   Alan    
(back) Subject: old sharp tunings From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:55:51 -0700   I had the same experience the first time I listened to Biggs' Bach at Zwolle ... I forget now, but that organ is either a half-step or a whole step high from A=3D440 ... I think closer to a half-step ... if I remember =   correctly it put the Eb Prelude and Fugue into E.   Legend has it that the old builders built sharp because they couldn't properly wind low "C" of a 16' or 32' ... and also that the sharp pitch saved space and metal ... is there anything to that?   Cheers,   Bud   Alan Freed wrote: > On 8/19/03 1:34 PM, "D. Keith Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com> wrote: > > I thought I had the turntable on the wrong speed, but later > discovered that this organ is almost a minor third sharp to A=3D440. > > > U u u u u h. Keith, I?ve got to think about that a bit. If an organ is =   > ?a minor third sharp? (i.e., from A to C?) would it not be up not ?to > A=3D440? but up to something like almost ?A=3D512? Hz? > > I don?t know about this stuff, but hope somebody does. Help me out. > > I used to keep a list of the Hz of every key of the piano, but it?s LONG =   > lost. I should dig into Google, I guess. > > Alan        
(back) Subject: IRC tonight? From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:58:06 -0700     Are we having chat tonight? Everything's packed but my computer ... I have nothing to DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! (grin)   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: IRC tonight? From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:01:34 -0400   OK by me, God Willing and the crick don't rise!   Bob     At 03:58 PM 8/19/03 -0700, Bud wrote:     >Are we having chat tonight? Everything's packed but my computer ... I = have >nothing to DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! (grin) > >Bud      
(back) Subject: RE: Bavokerk tuning From: "Mark & Cinda Towne" <mstowne@concentric.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:35:20 -0700   The recording of which you are referring is in Holland, but was recorded = at Zwolle. "Bach at Zwolle" Columbia Masterworks KS-6005.   EPB did an all Mozart program at St. Bavo.- "E. Power Biggs plays Mozart" Columbia Masterworks MS-6856.   Regards,   Mark S. Towne Las Vegas, NV -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of = D. Keith Morgan Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:35 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Bavokerk tuning     Many years ago, I bought a recordinbg of E. Power Biggs playing Bach on the St. Bavo Organ. One of the pieces was the Prelude and Fugue in E Flat Major (St. Ann's).   I thought I had the turntable on the wrong speed, but later discovered that this organ is almost a minor third sharp to A=3D440.   D. Keith Morgan            
(back) Subject: Tuesday IRC From: "mack02445" <mack02445@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:57:03 -0400   I be there at 9 Budley 8-) .   Mack    
(back) Subject: bottom octaves of "celestes" From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:01:17 EDT   Actually, "celestes" will do their thing if they are placed properly, = no matter how profound the pitch, down to 16 feet. This topic has appeared = many, many times on several organ-related chat lists, and it's pretty simple: (a) The parent rank and the undulant should be as far away from each other as possible, like people who got married in high school, can't stand = each other, but neither wants to give up their share of the house... (b) Narrower scales tend to fair better as undulating pairs that broad =   scales producing harmonically barren sounds, ALTHOUGH -- I have seen a = Skinner Flute Celeste where both ranks were on adjacent toeboards; they may have = had different foot lengths. Then again, Skinner is likely to have thought of = the Flute Celeste as more of a muted string than a Spitzflote Celeste. (c) The closer to traditional planting one gets, the better the = effect. Chromatic, of course, is the worst, diatonic, an improvement, major third planting most effective for tuning ALL organs. Sometimes one is forced to = go with chromatic planting, either due to extremes of architecture or the = inheritance of an existing soundboard. (d) 16' out-of-phase octaves might be best tubed off or planted on off-note chests on opposites sides of the enclosure. As they say in the Netherlands, "If your parent rank is too close to your Zweving, your = Zweving will not zwev." Or something like that.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City  
(back) Subject: Re: Bavokerk tuning From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:26:07 -0500   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 5:19 PM Subject: Re: Bavokerk tuning     On 8/19/03 1:34 PM, "D. Keith Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com> wrote:   > I thought I had the turntable on the wrong speed, but later discovered that > this organ is almost a minor third sharp to A=3D440.   > U u u u u h. Keith, I=B9ve got to think about that a bit. If an organ = is =B3a > minor third sharp=B2 (i.e., from A to C?) would it not be up not =B3to = A=3D440=B2 > but up to something like almost =B3A=3D512=B2 Hz   This is pretty much the same pitch that was in use in England in the early seventeenth century before the Civil War, and where lowest note of a (4') Principal was generally FF, and was five feet long. This was an amazingly high pitch, known in musicological circles as "Quire Pitch." Music by renaissance composers like Tallis, Byrd and Gibbons generally has to be transposed a minor third in modern editions so that it can be sung at = modern concert pitch.   John Speller