PipeChat Digest #3892 - Thursday, August 21, 2003
 
RE: Bavokerk tuning
  by "D. Keith Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com>
Re: Bavokerk tuning
  by "D. Keith Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com>
Re: Bavokerk tuning
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
pitch
  by "Dr. Amy Fleming" <docamy@alltel.net>
Re: my music download list (X-posted)
  by <ContraReed@aol.com>
IRC tonight
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: pitch
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Re: Karg Elert
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Bavokerk tuning
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Karg Elert
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
Re: Karg Elert
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
RE: my music download list (X-posted)
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: old  tunings
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
RE: pitch
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
RE: pitch
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Bavokerk tuning From: "D. Keith Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:20:05 -0700 (PDT)   Dear Mark: You are absoluteluy right. I looked up the recording, and it was the = organ at Zwolle, not St. Bavo. Alan Freed responded about my remark about the tuning, Apparently I did = not express myself well. The St. Anne's Prelude and Fugue in E Flat Major = sounded like it was being played in F Sharp Major. The organ was pitched = about a minor third higher than our organs here, which are pitched at = A=3D440. My apologies for the mistake.     Mark & Cinda Towne <mstowne@concentric.net> wrote: The recording of which you are referring is in Holland, but was recorded = at Zwolle. "Bach at Zwolle" Columbia Masterworks KS-6005. EPB did an all Mozart program at St. Bavo.- "E. Power Biggs plays Mozart" = Columbia Masterworks MS-6856. Regards, Mark S. Towne Las Vegas, NV -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of D. = Keith Morgan Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:35 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Bavokerk tuning     Many years ago, I bought a recordinbg of E. Power Biggs playing Bach on = the St. Bavo Organ. One of the pieces was the Prelude and Fugue in E Flat = Major (St. Ann's). I thought I had the turntable on the wrong speed, but later discovered = that this organ is almost a minor third sharp to A=3D440. D. Keith Morgan             --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software  
(back) Subject: Re: Bavokerk tuning From: "D. Keith Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:28:14 -0700 (PDT)   Dear Alan: Finally, after all these years, I have done it: I've made a mistake. = Someone called my attention to the Biggs recording. It was made on the = Schnitger at Zwolle, not at St. Bavo. The Bach Prelude and Fugue ion E-Flat Major (St. Ann's) sounded like it = was being played in F-Sharp Major, because the organ was pitched abo0ut a = minor third higher than our A=3D440 instruments. Apparently I did not = express myself well about the pirch. Does this mnake better sense now? D. Keith Morgan     Alan Freed <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> wrote: On 8/19/03 1:34 PM, "D. Keith Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com> wrote:   I thought I had the turntable on the wrong speed, but later discovered = that this organ is almost a minor third sharp to A=3D440.   U u u u u h. Keith, I=92ve got to think about that a bit. If an organ is = =93a minor third sharp=94 (i.e., from A to C?) would it not be up not = =93to A=3D440=94 but up to something like almost =93A=3D512=94 Hz?   I don=92t know about this stuff, but hope somebody does. Help me out.   I used to keep a list of the Hz of every key of the piano, but it=92s LONG = lost. I should dig into Google, I guess.   Alan   --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software  
(back) Subject: Re: Bavokerk tuning From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:03:18 -0400   Hi Keith, Good to hear from you. For what it's worth, I think that most of us knew exactly what you meant despite the slightly awkward wording. I am about 3/4 the way through Craig Whitney's book "All The Stops". It contains the story of Biggs and Mander altering a British organ (forget the name) to raise the pitch for an orchestra/organ recording. It was suggested that they "vandalized" the organ by doing this despite the fact they fitted tuning collars after cutting down the pipes in order to return it to the original pitch after the recording was complete. Considering your long career working with organs, particularly as a voicer and tonal finisher, I wonder if you might comment on the practice of changing organ pitch as Biggs and Mander did. Is this a successful method using the tuning collars, or is some of the tonal character of the instrument truly lost by this alteration. Thanks for your time and give my best to Lee. Cheers Mike   "D. Keith Morgan" wrote:   > (snip)Alan Freed responded about my remark about the > tuning, Apparently I did not express myself well. > The St. Anne's Prelude and Fugue in E Flat Major > sounded like it was being played in F Sharp Major. > The organ was pitched about a minor third higher than > our organs here, which are pitched at A=3D440. My > apologies for the mistake. >    
(back) Subject: pitch From: "Dr. Amy Fleming" <docamy@alltel.net> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:53:24 -0500   Ummmm. All this time I thought an "A" was an "A". So they decide what = pitch to tune the A to? Amy - confused and miles behind you but ready to learn :)    
(back) Subject: Re: my music download list (X-posted) From: <ContraReed@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:53:27 EDT   In a message dated 8/20/03 12:34:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, quilisma@socal.rr.com writes:   << I finally got around to clearing some of the non-working addresses. I just sent out "Unto Thee, O Lord" for SATB; if you think you SHOULD be on the list, and DIDN'T get it, please let me know. >>   Hi Bud, I'd like to be on your list of music, but on one condition - that = you don't mind if the pieces get arranged for recorder ensemble. I direct = such a group, and we find that most of our playing opportunities are for church services, etc, and I'm always looking for quality music for the group to = perform.   Thanx in advance for you consideration.   Richard Spittel  
(back) Subject: IRC tonight From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:27:05 -0700   We're on and chatting ...   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: pitch From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:42:44 -0400   Hi Amy, Not so very long ago I occupied the same plateau of knowledge you seem = to be at. The following link will take you to an article written by Stephen = Bicknell entitled "A Beginner's Guide To Temperament". I must say this article = launched a whole new way of looking at music for me, and I think it might help you as = well.   http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~oneskull/3.6.04.htm Cheers Mike Gettelman   "Dr. Amy Fleming" wrote:   > Ummmm. All this time I thought an "A" was an "A". So they decide what = pitch > to tune the A to? > Amy - confused and miles behind you but ready to learn :)    
(back) Subject: Re: Karg Elert From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:19:59 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   One small error BH, it was the English composer Healey-Willan who claimed to be British by birth, Irish by extraction, Canadian by adoption and Scotch by absorption.   Willan had an irrepressible sense of humour, and I had the very great privilege of meeting him in the mid-1960's when he was in the UK.....a lovely man.   The story about Reger is wonderful, but you missed off the end of the sentence. "I am pleased to say that it will shortly be behind me and forgotten."   As for Howells, well, you may be able to drag me to the water brook, but I desireth not to drink!   I have awful memories of ploughing through "Coll Reg" as an accompanist, and to be quite honest, I would sooner have kneaded bread or knitted myself a pair of ear defenders!   I guess I don't like his music.   :)   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK         ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Bavokerk tuning From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:29:23 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   I'm sorry, but I just cannot resist!   If that firm in London cut down the pipes of the organ at Great Packington for a performance of Handel, did it amount to Jerry Mandering?   Sorry Malcolm!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK (Sloping off quietly)     --- Mike Gettelman <mike3247@earthlink.net> wrote: > > "All The Stops". It contains the story of Biggs and > Mander altering a British organ (forget the name) to > raise the pitch for an orchestra/organ recording. It > was suggested that they "vandalized" the organ by > doing > this   ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Karg Elert From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:49:13 -0400   You write, anonymously:   "Two interesting anecdotes: I believe it was Howells who said something = like "I am British by birth, Irish by extraction, Canadian by = immigration and Scotch by infusion".=20   Not so, although Canada probably would have been delighted to have = Howells come to stay. It was said by, and typical of, Healey Willan. Ken = Cowan occasionally tells this and other good Healey Willan stories at = concerts, when playing some Willan.   Cheers,   Malcolm     ----- Original Message -----=20 From: DERREINETOR@aol.com=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:56 PM Subject: Re: Karg Elert     Colin, I tend to agree with you about Karg-Elert--although there are quite a = few pieces I play with great enthusiasm. As for Herbert Howells, I have = to admit that I am very partial to some of his choral music, especially = his Magnificat settings. I also understand that Karg-Elert was an almost = embarassingly inept organist himself, though he persisted in playing = concerts and making recordings. I have heard a few of the recordings he = made of his own works, and they tend to be extremely inaccurate. As for = Reger, my brain is far more fond of him than my ear, although I agree = that he is a major master.   Two interesting anecdotes: I believe it was Howells who said something = like "I am British by birth, Irish by extraction, Canadian by = immigration and Scotch by infusion".=20 I believe it was Max Reger who responded thusly to a harsh review by = Viennese critic E. Hanslick: "Sir, I am sitting in the smallest room in = my house with your review before me. Soon, it will be behind me".   BH      
(back) Subject: Re: Karg Elert From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:03:47 +0800   Hey Colin, you leave Herbert Howells out of this! I love his music and I play it often!! You can have Karg-Elert. He wrote a couple of good pieces but I leave you with the rest! Cheers, Bob Elms.   --->I suppose he is the German version of Herbert Howells, >"Which modulation should we use next?" >The only difference being that Karg Elert was probably >in control of where he was going, whereas Herbert >Howells was almost certainly not! >>    
(back) Subject: RE: my music download list (X-posted) From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:07:13 +0800   Yes please Bud. PDF will do. Thanks very much! Bob Elms     ---- Original Message ---- From: quilisma@socal.rr.com To: anglican-music@list.stsams.org, pipechat@pipechat.org, Subject: RE: my music download list (X-posted) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:37:43 -0700   >I finally got around to clearing some of the non-working addresses. >I >just sent out "Unto Thee, O Lord" for SATB; if you think you SHOULD >be >on the list, and DIDN'T get it, please let me know. > >As I mentioned, this is a good time to join if you WANT to get on, >because I'm starting over again with Advent. > >For those who don't have a CLUE what I'm talking about (grin), I >send >out liturgical choral pieces and SAB anthems, mostly. They're free; >I >ask for donations every once in awhile; they're STRICTLY voluntary. >I'm >not a non-profit organization; I just live the REALITY (chuckle). > >Please e-mail me PRIVATELY and specify PDFs or Sibelius files. I'm >still >using Sibelius 1.4, as not everybody has upgraded. > >Cheers, > >Bud > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related >topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >    
(back) Subject: Re: old tunings From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:22:23 +0800   Just as a matter of interest my son and I were tuning an organ today in the winter, outside temperature about 14C (57F). The organ was a Verscheuren of about 1963, but probably incorporating some very old pipe work. The pitch was A=3D435.   I then went around to the Church where I play (Paul F. Hufner, 1966). The pitch there, temperature the same, was A=3D434.   I would guess that in summer at around 75F the pitch would go close to A=3D440. I know that the Hufner was tuned in 1966 at A-440 at 70F as I know the builder quite well and that was his standard.   It can be seen therefore that the variation in pitch in any environment where there are fairly wide variations in air temperature, can be quite wide. Bob Elms.   ---- Original Message ---- From: jlspeller@mindspring.com To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: old tunings Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:15:26 -0500   > >----- Original Message ----- > >Around 450 was pretty normal in the latter half of the nineteenth >century. I remember the 1894 Hill organ at Holy Trinity, Taunton, England being tuned around there. An 1890's Moller that our firm recently restored was also pitched at about 450. Between about 1900 and 1930 a pitch of A=3D435 was more normal, and since then A=3D440 has been pretty universal. > >John Speller > >"    
(back) Subject: RE: pitch From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:32:54 +0800   Dear Amy, No, A has been quite variable over the centuries. I would guess that 300 years ago it was sheer guess work as to where the A on an organ sat. Nor did it matter very much. Then there were several standards from Low Pitch (A=3D412 Hz) to British Concert pitch (A=3D512 Hz I think). Then in the 1930s the world decided to standardize on A=3D440Hz. However some older instruments could still be low pitch or high pitch particularly in Europe. Hope that helps. Bob Elms.   ---- Original Message ---- From: docamy@alltel.net To: pipechat@pipechat.org, Subject: RE: pitch Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:53:24 -0500   >Ummmm. All this time I thought an "A" was an "A". So they decide >what pitch >to tune the A to? >Amy - confused and miles behind you but ready to learn :) > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related >topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >    
(back) Subject: RE: pitch From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:32:55 +0800   Dear Amy, No, A has been quite variable over the centuries. I would guess that 300 years ago it was sheer guess work as to where the A on an organ sat. Nor did it matter very much. Then there were several standards from Low Pitch (A=3D412 Hz) to British Concert pitch (A=3D512 Hz I think). Then in the 1930s the world decided to standardize on A=3D440Hz. However some older instruments could still be low pitch or high pitch particularly in Europe. Hope that helps. Bob Elms.   ---- Original Message ---- From: docamy@alltel.net To: pipechat@pipechat.org, Subject: RE: pitch Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:53:24 -0500   >Ummmm. All this time I thought an "A" was an "A". So they decide >what pitch >to tune the A to? >Amy - confused and miles behind you but ready to learn :) > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related >topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >