PipeChat Digest #3897 - Friday, August 22, 2003
 
Re: Pitch
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
RE: pitch
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
Disney Hall/Pitch
  by "Lisette Ehrat" <lisette@papadocs.com>
Music suggestion
  by "Patricia/Thomas Gregory" <tgregory@speeddial.net>
C-C organs and more (was RE: Music I never heard before)
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve>
Re: pitch
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Music suggestion
  by "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net>
Re: Music suggestion
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: pitch
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: Music suggestion
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
RE: (Long) Pitches - perfect and non perfect
  by "AMeagher@stny.rr.com" <AMeagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: pitch
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: pitch
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
Re: pitch
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
Re: pitch
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: pitch
  by "Bill" <bill.hauser@cox.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Pitch From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:40:37 -0500   Hmmm. Sounds like my sister and me on the Hinners at one of the churches I used to attend. I am not sure what it is tuned to, but we both had trouble adjusting. She didn't even want to sing with me at home when I played our piano because she said it just made things worse.   she was my soprano > soloist > > for eight years at Old St. Mary's RC Church in Cincinnati, where the > > 1928 Austin was tuned to something weird like A=3D438. Kathy HAS > perfect > > pitch, but it's A=3D440, and singing with the organ used to drive her > > CRAZY, since it wasn't exactly a half-step transposition she could > make > > in her head (chuckle). > > > > Cheers, > > > > Bud > > Alicia, that's exactly what I was thinking. > > > > Alicia Zeilenga wrote: > > > Perfect pitch can be a real bother, believe me.   > Alicia Zeilenga Sub-Dean AGO@UI "Santa Caecilia, ora pro nobis      
(back) Subject: RE: pitch From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:49:55 -0500   He did, and it made him physically sick to listen to his music when it was transposed, according to "Lives of the Great Composers". Couldn't this be because different keys have different characters and sound different when the instrument isn't equal tempered?     > Hello, > > I think not! (1756-1791) > > Regards, > > Colin Mitchell UK     Alicia Zeilenga Sub-Dean AGO@UI "Santa Caecilia, ora pro nobis"      
(back) Subject: Disney Hall/Pitch From: "Lisette Ehrat" <lisette@papadocs.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:59:06 -0500   Hello everyone,   The current issue of House and Garden magazine has an article on Disney = Hall. Full page photo of the organ but that's about it.   The topics on pipechat have been interesting lately. I'm enjoying = "listening" to them.   Thanks,   Lisette Ehrat  
(back) Subject: Music suggestion From: "Patricia/Thomas Gregory" <tgregory@speeddial.net> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:01:09 -0500   Greetings:   I am subbing on the East side (lakefront) of Milwaukee on August 31.   This is the weekend of the huge Harley Davidson 100th birthday party. The center of the activities will be near the church. Any suggestions for appropriate music?   Best wishes,   Tom Gregory -- Thomas and Patricia Gregory 716 West College Avenue Waukesha WI USA 53186-4569  
(back) Subject: C-C organs and more (was RE: Music I never heard before) From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:37:27 -0400   Andres Gunther agun@telcel.net.ve   Colin Mitchell wrote on Pipechat:   (SNIP)   > Did you see the awful state of the Caville-Coll organ > in the web site I posted? > > I was quite angry about it.   Incredible that in Europe's very heart there still is an valuable instrument in a so sad condition (here in South America its more usual). I hope it can be rescued some day- from = only two pics it's not so easy to judge, but it seems mostly untouched, hencefore restorable.   Speaking of C-C organs in South America, I think this could be of interest for all pipechatters:   www.clr.cl/   www.galeon.com/organos-argentina   www.geocities.com/davidmerello/index.html   They are in Spanish and English with other links of interest. Regretfully Miguel Castillo's excellent article about C-C organs in Chile isn't translated. Miguel Castillo Didier is a chilean organologuist who lived in Venezuela in the 1970s. In this time he catalogued all our organs and made researches about organ history of our country.   Cheers Andres =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.        
(back) Subject: Re: pitch From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:06:54 EDT   Hi Alicia:   I'm curious about an earlier posting about equally tempered keys. The attributes make no sense if each key is equally out of tune. It shouldn't make any difference whether the key is E major or Eb major or any other key change, it would just sound higher or lower. I guess my question is how key color can even enter the discussion? What drives me up a wall is the out of tune thirds and sixths in equal tempered tuning no matter which key signature is used. I'm at a lose to explain why this affects me more than most people. I guess most people ignore the discrepancy. I hear the 15-17 beats of the thirds twittering out of tune.   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: Music suggestion From: "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:16:34 -0500   Fantasia on "Wild Thing" Chorale Prelude on "Easy Rider"   Patricia/Thomas Gregory wrote:   >This is the weekend of the huge Harley Davidson 100th birthday party. = The >center of the activities will be near the church. Any suggestions for >appropriate music? > > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Music suggestion From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:26:39 -0700   "The Lord Preserve Thy Going Out And Thy Coming In"   "Ezekiel Saw The Wheel" (grin)   Bud       Patricia/Thomas Gregory wrote: > Greetings: > > I am subbing on the East side (lakefront) of Milwaukee on August 31. > > This is the weekend of the huge Harley Davidson 100th birthday party. = The > center of the activities will be near the church. Any suggestions for > appropriate music? > > Best wishes, > > Tom Gregory > -- > Thomas and Patricia Gregory > 716 West College Avenue > Waukesha WI USA > 53186-4569 > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >        
(back) Subject: Re: pitch From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:23:09 -0400   on 8/22/03 1:06 PM, RonSeverin@aol.com at RonSeverin@aol.com wrote:   I guess my question is how key color can even enter the discussion?     Well, that's my question too. I've always been puzzled about why people talk about key color when those differences have disappeared. I'm just trying to figure out if something else is at work here, for example the = feel of the keys on the keyboard (so that it would only apply to pianists and organists), or the look of the keys (more black keys, therefore a = perceived darker sound? what Garrison Keillor calls "the people's key of C": egalitarian, because all keys are the same color? the "people's key" because it seems easier to play?). Certainly musicologists in the past = have talked about why Beethoven wrote the Pastoral Symphony in F, etc. If it's all nonsense, why do musicologists continue to talk in these terms? Or perhaps they don't anymore? (I haven't read much musicology lately.)     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu        
(back) Subject: Re: Music suggestion From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:27:48 -0700   Um, on second thought, just cancel church and go to the party (chuckle).   Bud the Happy Pagan   Margo Dillard wrote: > Fantasia on "Wild Thing" > Chorale Prelude on "Easy Rider" > > Patricia/Thomas Gregory wrote: > >> This is the weekend of the huge Harley Davidson 100th birthday party. >> The >> center of the activities will be near the church. Any suggestions for >> appropriate music? >> >> >> >> > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >        
(back) Subject: RE: (Long) Pitches - perfect and non perfect From: "AMeagher@stny.rr.com" <AMeagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:34:04 -0400     Hi All,   I wanted to mention that there is research that shows that perfect pitch can be learned and doesn't have to be inborn=2E Have any of you heard tha= t too? I believe that it definitely could be learned but have never tried myself because it can be a detriment=2E As with anything I believe it wou= ld be easier for some people to learn than for others=2E I would be interest= ed to know if anyone has ever tried it=2E   Andrew Meagher Original Message: ----------------- From: Andr=E9s G=FCnther agun@telcel=2Enet=2Eve Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:30:09 -0400 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: (Long) Pitches - perfect and non perfect     Andres Gunther agun@telcel=2Enet=2Eve   Greetings, and congrats to this instructive thread=2E   I have the "perfect pitch" (at last I know the correct English term for that!) and believe me, it's a mixed gift=2E It's great when I have to tune= (or give the pitch to the choir) and forgot my tuning fork or maschine :) but a heck when it comes to transposition (accompaning)=2E I tolerate variations up to a 1/4 tone up or down, but from 1/4 tone+ on=2E=2E= =2E oh boy=2E I never can use a transposing device because I get nuts and must transpose all "by hand"=2E Fun starts when I must transpose from a minor t= o g sharp minor=2E=2E=2E   Note that the "perfect pitch" is an ability to store a given pitch in your=   brain permanently (BTW it's a recessive heritable ability)=2E In my case i= t's the a'=3D440Hz that is "stored" in my brain because my piano is tuned in t= his pitch since I took my first lessons=2E But somebody with this ability who lived in other time and learned / listened to music in the standard pitch of HIS time (f=2Ee=2E a'=3D 415) w= ould have gone nuts playing on a 440 Hz tuned instrument=2E   Different pitches on different instruments: Our older pipe organs are tune= d at a'=3D 440; modern ones at a' =3D445 HZ=2E One of them is a chest organ = from a 1-A german builder that was bought for rental=2E It now stands unused in a=   corner for the most time because so many groups in Caracas play with historic (or replicas of historic) instruments which have an a'=3D 415 pit= ch! Regretfully nobody thought about this detail and told the builder to inclu= de a transposer=2E Only our symphonic orchestra (which plays at 445 Hz) rents= it from time to time=2E   The worst problem was to explain to the clients that an organ *cannot* be raised or lowered in pitch=2E Its pipes were scaled, voiced and cut to a specific pitch, and period=2E When we tune an organ we do not perform but micro-adjustments=2E But if we attempt to raise or lower the pitch we chan= ge the whole pipe scale de facto (lowering the pitch the scale becomes narrower, raising the pitch it becomes wider); and with that the whole sou= nd is altered, it becomes dull (lowering) or screaming (raising)=2E=2E=2E to = name only the two most noticeable parameters=2E Outside of that we must cut off= the pipes which is (at least for me) an unacceptable alteration of original substance, even when later on it's made reversible with tuning sleeves=2E = With reeds things are even more delicate with their complex resonator-shallot-tongue scale/length relationship=2E When a 19th cty organ builder had to "upgrade" an ancient pipe organ to ne= w standards he used to re-set up or down the entire pipe rank on the chest manufacturing one or two new pipes matched to scale at the extreme=2E This= way he achieved the new pitch without altering original scales and substance (Cavaille-Coll did this quite often and published several very instructive essays about pitches and tuning questions)=2E   String instruments tolerate temporary pitch alterations- but it is a more delicate matter than it seems at first sight and never should be attempted=   without consulting a luthier or instrument builder first=2E Strings are sc= aled to a specific pitch range too, even when this range tolerance is wider tha= n in pipe organs=2E But I have seen enough cracked and warped violins, harpsichords and pianos whose owners -or thoughtless tuners- raised the pitch without criteria=2E The total tension increase on frame and soundboa= rd when the pitch is raised "only 10 cents" is incredibly high=2E But this is=   topic of another List=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E   Coming to a "Pitch dark" end (LOL) Andres =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler=2E The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about=2E   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: pitch From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:40:34 EDT   Hi Randy:   In reading music for beginners C seems to be the easiest, but is it? There really are no land marks as when you have a few sharps or flats. If I see 5 flats I always go to two sharps, infact I prefer sharp keys. Gb always winds up G major etc. I must drive perfect pitch people crazy too. :)   Ron    
(back) Subject: Re: pitch From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:42:54 EDT   In a message dated 8/22/03 10:25:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, runyonr@muohio.edu writes:   << Well, that's my question too. I've always been puzzled about why = people talk about key color when those differences have disappeared. I'm just = trying to figure out if something else is at work here, for example the feel of = the keys on the keyboard (so that it would only apply to pianists and = organists), or the look of the keys (more black keys, therefore a perceived darker = sound? what Garrison Keillor calls "the people's key of C": egalitarian, because = all keys are the same color? the "people's key" because it seems easier to play?). Certainly musicologists in the past have talked about why = Beethoven wrote the Pastoral Symphony in F, etc. If it's all nonsense, why do = musicologists continue to talk in these terms? Or perhaps they don't anymore? (I = haven't read much musicology lately.) >>   the key colors have not entirely disappeared, they're just not as apparent = as they once were. D-flat is also known as the key of the earth. if you = take recordings of animal sounds and try to match them with a tonal = accompaniment, you'll find that you'll always be playing in D-flat. equal temperament or = not, it's still my favorite key to play in and to listen to.   also, composers still tend to write in the same keys for a particular purpose. the roger-ducasse pastorale (1909) is in F. there are many = later composers who follow the traditions because it still sounds and feels right. it's = just not as strong as it was, say, 200 years ago before equal temperament.  
(back) Subject: Re: pitch From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:53:20 EDT   In a message dated 8/22/03 10:45:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, RonSeverin@aol.com writes:   << In reading music for beginners C seems to be the easiest, but is it? There really are no land marks as when you have a few sharps or flats. If I see 5 flats I always go to two sharps, infact I prefer sharp keys. Gb always winds up G major etc. I must drive perfect pitch people crazy too. :) >>   beginners are taught in C to begin with because it's the easiest key to = read, since there are no accidentals. it's hard enough for a typical 7 year old = to comprehend that alone, but adding any accidentals right off the bat would = be too much.  
(back) Subject: Re: pitch From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:02:39 -0400   On 8/22/03 1:53 PM, "BlueeyedBear@aol.com" <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> wrote:   > infact I prefer sharp keys. Gb always winds up G major etc. I must drive > perfect pitch people crazy too. :) >>   Of course. And we all prefer sharp keys over flat keys because the first non-C keys we learned on the piano were sharp keys. UNLESS we later = studied band instruments, where flat keys are FAR more intuitive, in which case = our whole preference, even on keyboards, may shift to flats.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: pitch From: "Bill" <bill.hauser@cox.net> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:17:02 -0500     >>beginners are taught in C to begin >>with... since there are no accidentals. =20       Sorry, music written in C may not have a key signature, but could VERY WELL have accidentals.