PipeChat Digest #3915 - Friday, August 29, 2003
 
pedal trills creating "vibrato"
  by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net>
historic approach
  by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net>
Re: historic approach
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: toes only
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: historic approach and intentions
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
1973 Wicks for sale
  by "James R McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com>
Re: historic approach and intentions
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: toes only
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: historic approach and intentions
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
BIRDOLA
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
Re: pedal trill and winding
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Haworth
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Speaking of Reger....
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: historic approach and intentions
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: historic approach and intentions
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: toes only and knocked knees
  by "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net>
Re: historic approach and intentions
  by "Shelley Culver" <culverse@westminster.edu>
Re: Mendelssohn and Romanticism
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
New York City
  by "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com>
Re: A fine Birdola
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Introducing ORGANLive  x-post
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: historic approach and intentions
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
Re: historic approach
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Haworth
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: New York City
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
 

(back) Subject: pedal trills creating "vibrato" From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 04:40:01 -0500 (CDT)   Gary, Just think of that vibrato as an "authentic" sound....are you familiar with the winding systems of early instruments? They did not have the absolutely steady pressure we are used to. If you find the vibrato in the manuals offensive, you'll have to try different registrations.   On mechanical action, some of this can be controlled a bit depending how one attacks the keys, however, it is one of the peculiarities of the winding systems in early instruments. That's why they had to be more particular about registrations used. With certain registrations, a moving part will create a natural undulation in a more sustained part such a cantus firmus...sort of a natural tremulant. It also seems that the tremulant (which effected all divisions) might be used to disguise wobbling, if not out-of-tuneness! BTW, even 19th century American organs often had more flexible wind, although little concussion bellows might be added to help.   Bach was noted for testing organs for sufficient wind to play plenums without undue sagging of tone, but there still was flexibility or "breathing" of the wind. One of the neat things about the use of wedge bellows is that if you hold a chord, the sound will get more intense as the bellows collapse and create more pressure.    
(back) Subject: historic approach From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:20:08 -0500 (CDT)   Ron, I have nothing against people playing Bach or early music on a synth or unique sounds, etc., but the whole movement of historically informed performance is based on searching for the sounds of the period and the composer's intentions. To say that we have "evolved" beyond the limitations of those periods is to miss out on the uniqueness of music of each period in history. It's comparing apples & oranges.   We need to continue to strive to bring the composer's genius off the page as he/she would have heard it. Just imagine people in 100 years intrepreting music of our time with the philosphy that we were not as "evolved" and they know a better, more up-to-date, way to interpret music that is now very specific in what the composer wants. Why should Dufay sound like Wagner or vice versa? A program of Buxtehude on a theatre organ might be an interesting exercise, but it would not represent his music. To carry your logic to the extreme, let's tear-down all old buildings (as some people have done!!) because they are "old fashioned".    
(back) Subject: Re: historic approach From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:32:52 EDT   amen!   Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: Re: toes only From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:40:01 EDT   In a message dated 8/28/2003 11:21:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Terrick@webtv.net writes:   > > If one approaches something like the opening of Bach's D-major prelude > with an understanding of weak and strong beats in the music, plus the > restrictions of using heels, the scale can sound like it begins on a > "upbeat" following the rest that's in the score   have never heard anyone do this successfully   any on CD that you know of?   thanks dale in Florida    
(back) Subject: Re: historic approach and intentions From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:43:09 EDT   In a message dated 8/29/2003 6:20:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Terrick@webtv.net writes:   > but the whole movement of > historically informed performance is based on searching for the sounds > of the period and the composer's intentions   My question here is Do we ALL have to perform informed or are we allowed = to go forth and experiment without derision and being chided for using = "modern things like MIDI and heels and legato.   Is there room for both and still be friends?   dale in Florida    
(back) Subject: 1973 Wicks for sale From: "James R McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:00:14 -0400   We have a 1973 Two manual and Pedal Wicks for sale.   Ideally suited for home use. (Useable in larger spaces)   Unified Gedeckt 16' through 2' Principal 4' through 2' Gemshorn 8' through 1 1/3'   Footprint: 30 3/4 inches by 83 1/2 inches plus 35 1/2" additional depth for pedal board.   Main unit fits under an 8' ceiling Bottom few 16's on offset chest require a bit more. (We can miter for you, or you can mount on their sides)   Set up and playing   Buyer to remove (We can ship for a fee)   $5000.00   reply: mcfarland6@juno.com for details  
(back) Subject: Re: historic approach and intentions From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:05:22 EDT   My question here is Do we ALL have to perform informed or are we allowed = to go forth and experiment without derision and being chided for using = "modern things like MIDI and heels and legato. Perform how ever you want. This is a free country. But keep in mind that =   your listeners, especially academics, may be offended or bored by what you = play.   Why do people like EVERYTHING in the organ literature to sound like = Lemmens, Widor, and Schweitzer wrote it? Its just no fun! It takes the color and diversity out of music. Why not play Mendelssohn on the plenum with no = reeds or swell boxes, detached and with toes only???It just doesn't make sense = because we have learned that Mendelssohn is played with romantic techniques and registrations. Why can't people have the same respect for early music = techniques? Romanticizing everything makes the organ repertoire sound like one big, = full organ, legato blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh. One word should be kept in mind = while learning all types of music: scholarship. It is scholarship that hs kept = this music alive over the centuries.   Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: Re: toes only From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 04:09:08 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   That's an interesting perspective......quite a seminal moment in my thinking!   OF COURSE the Prelude CAN start strong or weak, but either way, it will HAVE TO BE ANSWERED on the weak-beat on the manuals; either as imitation or as a deliberately "off the beat" exact reply.   The only way of playing the Prelude in a consistent manner is to use the most deadly leagto, which would kill the work stone dead.   I have a similar understanding of the echo sections in THE D Minor Toccata and Fugue. If played according to the Fugue subject, then the echo passages should imitate the rhythm of the fugue subject. This means that the group of 8 notes is nothing of the sort; it should be (1) carrying over from the previous passage, and then 7 (starting on a weak beat) and ending on a strong beat as no.8.....which is now the first note of the next eight in the notation.   I bet that's as clear as mud!   Anyway, I find that this method of playing the echoes implied, maintains the harmonic rhythm beautifully. When played as groups of 8 notes commencing on a strong beat (or as a group of 16 as some play it), it completely breaks up the flow of the fugue.   Sorry about this, but we're being very arty and muso aren't we?   Lovely weather we're having over here......can't see Mars for the cloud.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK       > Terrick@webtv.net writes: > > > > > If one approaches something like the opening of > Bach's D-major prelude > > with an understanding of weak and strong beats in > the music, plus the > > restrictions of using heels, the scale can sound > like it begins on a > > "upbeat" following the rest that's in the score     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: historic approach and intentions From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 04:16:11 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   Absolutely right Gregory!   That is what I find so impressive about the best recitals in Holland. Bach is Bach...carefully thought about with special reference to the architecture and linear flow. Slightly detached, with pointed phrasing and careful use of voice-leading.   Then they play Romantic music ever so legato.   THIS is when music begins to live and breathe.   Jos van der Kooy gave us just that at Haarlem recently; a wonderful display of scholarship and sheer panache, not to mention the best registration I have heard for a very long time.   I'll put the soap-box away now.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   Gregory Ceuvorst wrote:-   > Why do people like EVERYTHING in the organ > literature to sound like Lemmens, > Widor, and Schweitzer wrote it? Its just no fun! It > takes the color and > diversity out of music   __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: BIRDOLA From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:18:14 -0400   Dear List,   Those of us who attended the 2001 OHS Convention in North Carolina got a = rather good dose of Birdola. Everytime the damn thing came on, I thought = I needed to duck to try to avoid anything it might have dropped on us at = each fly past. Kathleen Schiede was playing a really fine 1978 Andover = Organ located in the gallery at Church of the Epiphany, Danville, = Virginia. (There is a lovely 1928 Skinner in the Chancel - both were = heard on this occasion.)   The following piece gave us just about all the Birdola one could ever = want: Aria: "Quis mutuos amores" . . . . . F.-X. Murschhauser (1663-1738) mit Variationen cum imitation cuculi.   In addition to the Bird, the Zimbelstern got a major workout. The pew I = was in was shaking with only thinly disguised silent laughter. My ribs = were sore for days.   Cheers,   Malcolm Wechsler www.mander-organs.com =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gfc234@aol.com=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 1:19 PM Subject: Re: The Big One/Birdola     They have a rossignol at Holy Name Catherdral(Flentrop) , Chicago, = which did not work when I was there because it was out of water.   Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com  
(back) Subject: Re: pedal trill and winding From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 04:26:53 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   A neat trick I discovered about springing; which could be the problem.   Springs bounce at a given harmonic.....sometimes happily all day with a bit of encouragement.   So fit TWO springs of unequal harmonic, and they tend to act as a natural shock-absorber I've never actually tried it, but I bet it works.   A concussion bellow works because it has a different wind harmonic to the main bellow......an air spring in fact.       Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- TRACKELECT@cs.com wrote: > Gary: > > What your organ most likely needs is a "winker" or > concussion bellows, > probably on the great windchest.   __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Haworth From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 04:43:58 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   Pedant!   Actually, the locals pronounce it 'Owath', as in Owe-ath, with the accent on the 'O'.   The gentile folk pronounce the 'H', but then convert the 'O' into a short, hard 'A'....sort of 'Hawath', with the 'Ha' being accented.   Of course, 'Last of the Summer Wine' enthusiasts can contemplate just how Yorkshire folk manage to make the town of Slaithwaite sound like 'Slawit', with a short, hard 'a'.   Th-all nivver know 'ow to speyk Yorkshur' unless thee's bin thier!   It's a foreign language....we need subtitles.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK         --- Stan Yoder <vze2myh5@verizon.net> wrote: > Colin sez: > > > It is pronounced "Howath" > > That's not phonetically very specific. Do you mean:     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Speaking of Reger.... From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 04:47:37 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   That's cheating!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- Stan Yoder <vze2myh5@verizon.net> wrote: Take the back off the console and have someone > manipulate the swell pedal manually.     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: historic approach and intentions From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:49:31 EDT   In a message dated 8/29/2003 7:06:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, = Gfc234@aol.com writes:   > especially academics, may be offended or bored by what you play. > >   interesting point--wonder if that is why "ordinary" people dont come to recitals anymore? they dont want to hear romanticized Mendelssohn and = historically accurate Buxtehude and Bach which might be found as boring as those = playing with legato passages.   If it is an AGO type meeting or you are doing boards it is best to show = your understanding of it all. OR, play it YOUR own way and not worry what the = other side thinks. My guess is this comes with age and confidence. My = dedication concerts and local recitals are geared to non-trained listeners and = include teaching moments, explanations and me playing the way I think it should = be...such a selfish son of a gun I know. <G>   Thanks for the responses. You all have a safe holiday if you actually get the day off.   dale in Florida      
(back) Subject: Re: historic approach and intentions From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:04:40 EDT   In a message dated 8/29/2003 6:50:22 AM Central Daylight Time, Keys4bach@aol.com writes: "ordinary" I don't really think that ordinary is the right term to use whilst = describing average idol minded Americans. I think selfish, ignorant, consumer, = business man, impatient, and uncultured are better terms. Why would anyone want to = go to an organ concert when they could turn on the TV, or sign onto the = internet and hear the latest J LO songs. I'm obviously jaded...This conversation = must end.   Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: Re: toes only and knocked knees From: "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:13:34 -0500   Disregarding all the arguments, historical or otherwise, for heels or no heels/thumbs or no thumbs/etc.etc.etc - I have always wondered - Why does there seem to be an assumption that playing with heels or thumbs automatically means playing legato, and that playing without heels or thumbs automatically means playing non-legato?   And I don't even want to get into the ergonomics of playing with heels together/toes apart, on the inside of the foot, with the knees pinched together - read an anatomy book - there are positions this creates that require opposing muscles to co-contract rather than working as intended and joints to bend in ways they weren't designed for. I had a Biomedical engineering professor who pointed out to me that one of the movements described in an organ method would require an extra joint about mid-calf to accomplish - not to mention ball-and-socket knees. It's no wonder organist's have hip and back pain. Someone should write a dissertation on it - oh, I forgot - I already did....   I think the wisest remark anyone has made about this was made by a member of this list just a few e-mails ago - sorry, I forgot who said it - and I approximately quote - "I don't care if you play with your ears if the notes and articulations are right". Here, here. Note accuracy, Stylistic correctness, Economy of motion, and Adaptation to the individual's biometric parameters - that's the ticket!   Margo, who has 10 fingers and 10 toes, and who plays with her heels together within a 5th, but keeping her knees over the plane of the foot, so the hip joints can abduct and the knee joints can swing, they way God made'em.    
(back) Subject: Re: historic approach and intentions From: "Shelley Culver" <culverse@westminster.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:13:19 -0400   'Why do people like EVERYTHING in the organ literature to sound like Lemmens, Widor, and Schweitzer wrote it? Its just no fun! It takes the color and   diversity out of music. Why not play Mendelssohn on the plenum with no reeds or swell boxes, detached and with toes only???It just doesn't make sense because we have learned that Mendelssohn is played with romantic techniques and registrations. Why can't people have the same respect for early music techniques? Romanticizing everything makes the organ repertoire sound like one big, full organ, legato blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh. "   I couldn't agree more! Playing everything in the romantic style or whatever isn't necessarily wrong, but shouldn't we, as organists, strive to play our music and our instruments the way a composer actually intended? Orchestral instruments certainly don't get away with playing everything the same way -- we wouldn't enjoy a symphony concert as much if Beethoven, Prokofiev, Ravel, and Copland were all the played the exact same way. I don't see why we, as organists, should feel we can play everything in a romantic style, nor do I see why we should want to!     Just my two cents.... Shell   Shelley E. Culver Westminster College New Wilmington, PA 16172 AIM: ShellBell0206 Email: culverse@westminster.edu  
(back) Subject: Re: Mendelssohn and Romanticism From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:15:02 EDT   Look carefully at the structure of Mendelssohn's organ music. Look up the organs he played, the organists for whom he wrote, and the =   organs that THEY played, before deciding that Mendelssohn should be lumped =   together with other Romantics. What manuscript did he discover at the age of ten, changing him = forever? What did he conduct during his concerts of "antique" music? Which composers were his models? Do we have any written accounts of how he intended his organ music, or =   the music of others, to be played?   Seabstian M. Gluck New York City Wondering why the average American thinks Vivaldi was a better composer = than Mendelssohn...  
(back) Subject: New York City From: "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:19:25 -0400   I heartily agree with the recommendation of St. Anne & The Holy Trinity in Brooklyn; for a few years I helped maintain it. Others of interest: Holy Trinity Episcopal on the east side (88th Street?), where the present or perhaps immediate past AGO Dean plays; Holy Trinity R.C. on West 82nd, off Broadway, has a Letourneau from a few years ago - I was the o/c there a couple of decades ago when the organ was an Estey that had been redone by Kilgen (oy veh), but the room is glorious and I would think banging two trash can lids would be musical (on the theory that the best stop on any organ should be the room it's in); the present organist won either 2nd or 3rd in a recent improvisation contest. St. Agnes, on East 43rd near Grand Central Station is also a very charming italianate chapel with a fairly new Mander, isn't it, Malcolm? The church is new after a devastating fire destroyed the old church and the Aeolian-Skinner therein.   David Baker    
(back) Subject: Re: A fine Birdola From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:21:16 EDT   On the V/2 Hillgreen-Lane in Witness the Resurgence of Faith = Tabernacle in Tolerance, Alabama, there is a Birdola stop available on all five = manuals and pedal. When the knob is drawn, an anamatronic hand strangles a live chicken, causing it to sputter and squawk. It is built on historic models, the only concession to modernity being =   the indicator light (there is one for the Zimbelstern, too). It remains = the most musical voice in the instrument.  
(back) Subject: Re: Introducing ORGANLive x-post From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:39:45 -0400   Thanks, I've been enjoying listening to it this morning. It would be = nice, however, if the composer's name was consistently listed.     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu         on 8/28/03 9:05 PM, Brent Johnson at brentmj@swbell.net wrote:   > Ladies and Gentlemen, > > I'd like to invite you to tune into ORGANLive, the best source of organ > music on the web. ORGANlive streams classical organ music straight to = your > computer 24 hours a day, absolutely free of charge!. We're working to > provide a varied and exciting selection of organ music. I could tell you = all > about it, but I'd rather you go experience it for yourself. Simply go to > http://www.organlive.com to see the website, and to tune in and listen! > Your comments are always welcome, so please feel free to email us at > comments@organlive.com. > > Brent Johnson    
(back) Subject: Re: historic approach and intentions From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:19:42 EDT   In a message dated 8/29/03 4:50:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Keys4bach@aol.com writes:   << If it is an AGO type meeting or you are doing boards it is best to show =   your understanding of it all. OR, play it YOUR own way and not worry what the other side thinks. My guess is this comes with age and confidence. My = dedication concerts and local recitals are geared to non-trained listeners and = include teaching moments, explanations and me playing the way I think it should be...such a selfish son of a gun I know. <G> >>   one of the times i coached with gillian weir, she was telling me to = basically use baroque articulation on the fugue from saint-saens' P&F in B. so i = asked her why she recommended that instead of the all-legato style we're taught = to use for the period. i'll never forget her response, "because i really = don't give a damn. i play it the way i want." judging from the size of her audiences, i decided to go with her feelings on the matter.  
(back) Subject: Re: historic approach From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:31:30 EDT   Terrick:   I think you missed the point of my message entirely. I'm agreeing with you in principal, but I had to present the other side of the argument as well. I would very much like to see and hear baroque music without modern temperment and whatever fingerings and toe techniques. I believe I covered that in my PS statement.   What I'm pointing out is doing only half measures, such as hand and foot technique without the right sound and vise versa. Modern tunings negate the effect. I say go all the way. I happen to like the = sound. I've never had a quarrel with the old sound, infact I have recordings on CD from the OHS from Bohemia where Baroque as well as more modern pieces played on period instruments. The result is outstanding and quite charming. It's a sound that you could listen to all day and never tire of it. It proves the point, modern music can be played with nice effect on Baroque tunings. The key color returns to the instrument something that is lost with modern tuning. The instrument benefits and so does the music as I've pointed out several times before.   Martin Pasi's Opus 14 in Nebraska would never have taken shape if the musicians there didn't see and hear the same things I'm hearing. They went one step further providing Well temper and meantone. I would have been happy with Well temper alone, but I'm glad they did what they did.It's in it's final voicing and tuning stages now. Four more stops and it will be finished for all to hear.   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: Haworth From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:47:10 EDT   Hey Colin:   Maybe there's something wrong with me, but I could understand the Yorkshire accent, much better than the Lancs.   Ron    
(back) Subject: Re: New York City From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:53:07 -0400   On 8/29/03 12:05 AM, "Kealypaul" <kealypaul@yahoo.com> wrote:   > As I recall, the organ is profiled on their website > StLukesNY or something like that. Help us, Alan.   Frantically busy this morning, but will get back to you in an hour or so.   But do check us out at www.stlukesnyc.org   Alan, proud that Paul (and also Arp Schneider and Malcolm Wechsler) have recommended our little beast.   Alan