PipeChat Digest #4143 - Sunday, December 7, 2003
 
Church: full-time or part time?
  by "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net>
Re: Church: full-time or part time?
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Re: Church: full-time or part time?
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
Drawbars
  by <FRANKELGINE@aol.com>
Re: Church: full-time or part time?
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
Re: Drawbars
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
Re: Faure
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
Re: Faure
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: Faure
  by "V. David Barton" <vdbarton@erols.com>
Re: Drawbars
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: Church: full-time or part time?
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: Drawbars
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: Drawbars
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Drawbars
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
 

(back) Subject: Church: full-time or part time? From: "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 08:03:56 -0500   Hi, all, Would anyone be willing to share their experience (anecdotal or statistical) about the relative benefits/drawbacks of a church music program based on a full-time position vs. a (or several) part-time position(s)? I am involved with discussions (as an informal consultant) at a church where they are debating the two plans. They are used to having one full time position (choir/organ) with benefits. That part is great, and I hate to knock it since it makes them responsible employers and makes a very nice job for someone. But as far as the program goes.... I tend to feel that there would be more growth potential in a part time set-up. My reasoning is: 1) I think choirs do better if they have a conductor who can pay them full attention. If the choir does better, it has better growth potential. 2) As far as the people contact is concerned, it tends to happen in sporadic bursts. I mean, full time... doesn't that mean you're pretty much alone at the church all day (I'd think daytimes are typically downtime in terms of congregation contact) and then you're absolutely snowed under when it comes to the rehearsal schedule in a developed program? One person can string out all the rehearsals on every available week night, but in order for people to potentially participate in various offerings, I think it's better to have several directors conducting activities at one time and cluster them on one or two week nights, or Sunday late afternoon, or whatever. 3) as far as the practical/logistical aspects (Sunday choir warm-up plus playing the prelude, warming up the choir PLUS handbell choirs, etc.) I think you can cover a heck of a lot more ground with more than one person, and for less money. I'm anxious to be instructed and illumined on this topic... please write me offline and if there's any interest, I will compile and send.   Chuck Peery Cincinnati    
(back) Subject: Re: Church: full-time or part time? From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 07:24:02 -0600   What you say is largely correct. The main drawback, however, is that you will find more difficulty find good candidates when advertizing for part-time candidates than for a full time job. I know of one church near here that, having split their organist/choirmaster post two or three years ago, is faced with the situation that the organist (but not the choirmaster) has left, and they cannot find a suitable candidate who is interested in taking the organist post without the choirmaster one. Admittedly in this case the two posts do not add up to a full time one, but even so you are most likely to get the best candidates when offering a full time post. Your statement "for less money" is only too true -- if you split the post each candidate only gets half as much!   John Speller   Charles Peery wrote:   > Hi, all, > Would anyone be willing to share their experience (anecdotal or > statistical) about the relative benefits/drawbacks of a church music > program based on a full-time position vs. a (or several) part-time > position(s)? I am involved with discussions (as an informal > consultant) at a church where they are debating the two plans. They > are used to having one full time position (choir/organ) with > benefits. That part is great, and I hate to knock it since it makes > them responsible employers and makes a very nice job for someone. But > as far as the program goes.... I tend to feel that there would be more > growth potential in a part time set-up. > My reasoning is: > 1) I think choirs do better if they have a conductor who can pay them > full attention. If the choir does better, it has better growth > potential. 2) As far as the people contact is concerned, it tends to > happen in sporadic bursts. I mean, full time... doesn't that mean > you're pretty much alone at the church all day (I'd think daytimes are > typically downtime in terms of congregation contact) and then you're > absolutely snowed under when it comes to the rehearsal schedule in a > developed program? One person can string out all the rehearsals on > every available week night, but in order for people to potentially > participate in various offerings, I think it's better to have several > directors conducting activities at one time and cluster them on one or > two week nights, or Sunday late afternoon, or whatever. 3) as far as > the practical/logistical aspects (Sunday choir warm-up plus playing > the prelude, warming up the choir PLUS handbell choirs, etc.) I think > you can cover a heck of a lot more ground with more than one person, > and for less money. > I'm anxious to be instructed and illumined on this topic... please > write me offline and if there's any interest, I will compile and send.          
(back) Subject: Re: Church: full-time or part time? From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 09:12:05 EST   In a message dated 12/7/2003 8:05:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, cepeery@earthlink.net writes:     > I think you > can cover a heck of a lot more ground with more than one person, and > for less money. >   I have been in both positions as organist only, and organist/director. = There is no economy in having 2 persons part-time, and in my (limited - only 35 years in the church music arena) experience, the organist/director = position usually pays LESS than the combined costs of 2 persons (seperate organist = and conductor). AND, only in very few situations are the choir director and = organist considered equals and treated as such...in many situations, the organist = is 'subservient' to the choir director and is paid accordingly, even tho the = organist is >probably< spending more time/energy to accomplish the work involved. = just my 2 cents worth. There are pros and cons to working both ways.   Rick in VA    
(back) Subject: Drawbars From: <FRANKELGINE@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 10:20:51 EST   >Does anybody know where I could find a full explanation of the use of the =   >drawbars for a Hammond Electronic Model L-122 Serial Nbr 83958? >I understand that there is a book called 'The Drawbar Digest' but I have >never been able to find the publisher. >Thank you. >Frank Mann  
(back) Subject: Re: Church: full-time or part time? From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:44:26 -0500   Dear Chuck and List,   I think your question raises more questions, some, to be sure, involving personalities.   1. Is there presently an Organist-Choirmaster in place, and if so, is he part of these discussions? How does he feel about splitting up his job?   2. My experience leads me to question the following from your posting: "I think choirs do better if they have a conductor who can pay them full attention. If the choir does better, it has better growth potential." A well-schooled Director of Music is capable of giving his full attention to the choir, even while playing an accompaniment. He will know all the choir material thoroughly. Such a person, if presented with an accompanist, has = to spend time beyond the rehearsal, and sometimes within it, getting the accompanist to do his musical will both at rehearsals, and then, at the Organ, including registration of the Organ.   3. I don't quite understand this: "As far as the people contact is concerned, it tends to happen in sporadic bursts." The Music Director is, presumably, at all rehearsals, and can quite nicely manage to talk to = people before and after. He will also, by being at the church full time, tend to meet people as they come to the church for other reasons. We have to = assume that the Director of Music is a people person. Were he not, he would not really succeed as a Choirmaster.   4. "then you're absolutely snowed under when it comes to the rehearsal schedule in a developed program?" That's part of the job. Most full-time church positions involve one rehearsal per week per choir, unless the main choir is a boychoir, in which time, several rehearsals per week are desirable. This is all manageable - I have known more than a few places = that prove this.   5. By the time an Organist is ready to play a prelude, the choirs should = be robing and ready. In most of the major churches I have known, handbells = did not play a major role, if any. In a few that do, there is often a good, solid, volunteer devoted to that work.   6. Some of the major churches I know that have a full-time Director of = Music have a music internship for Organ students, and such a person is able to play occasional preludes, do some choir accompanying, and mainly, absorb what is involved in such a program. It is an apprenticeship of sorts. In other situations I have known, where there was no intern, the Director = would have one of the people on his AGO chapter's substitute list come around to help out at Christmas and Easter, to take some of the pressure off.   7. Most important to me is the effect of having one very strong, highly trained, highly personable musician on board as a full-time Director of Music in the fullest sense. These people are as important to the parish as the clergy are (no comments here), and need to be in total control of what it is they do. I am sure there are examples otherwise, and I am happy to stand corrected, but I do not often think there is the same depth and = focus on the incredibly significant role the finest church music can play in the life and well-being of a church, in a split position. I believe it is best to have one very strong musician in firm control of choirs and keyboard, = one who also interprets to church members, directly and through the church's committees, what is desirable and what is required.   As something, but only something, of an exception to this, would be a = place like St. Thomas', Fifth Avenue, where there is always an Assistant = Organist, but in this situtation, there is NO doubt about who is in charge - who = makes the program what it is. And, of course, with a choir school with daily rehearsals and services more than one day a week, an assistant is = essential. Although not referred to as such, the position of assistant is really one = of the great apprenticeship programs going. Those who have held the post for = a year or so, have gone on to important churches of their own, prepared as = few are.   Shoot at will.   Malcolm Wechsler www.mander-organs.com   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 8:03 AM Subject: Church: full-time or part time?     > Hi, all, > Would anyone be willing to share their experience (anecdotal or > statistical) about the relative benefits/drawbacks of a church music > program based on a full-time position vs. a (or several) part-time > position(s)? I am involved with discussions (as an informal > consultant) at a church where they are debating the two plans. They > are used to having one full time position (choir/organ) with benefits. > That part is great, and I hate to knock it since it makes them > responsible employers and makes a very nice job for someone. But as > far as the program goes.... I tend to feel that there would be more > growth potential in a part time set-up. > My reasoning is: > 1) I think choirs do better if they have a conductor who can pay them > full attention. If the choir does better, it has better growth > potential. 2) As far as the people contact is concerned, it tends to > happen in sporadic bursts. I mean, full time... doesn't that mean > you're pretty much alone at the church all day (I'd think daytimes are > typically downtime in terms of congregation contact) and then you're > absolutely snowed under when it comes to the rehearsal schedule in a > developed program? One person can string out all the rehearsals on > every available week night, but in order for people to potentially > participate in various offerings, I think it's better to have several > directors conducting activities at one time and cluster them on one or > two week nights, or Sunday late afternoon, or whatever. 3) as far as > the practical/logistical aspects (Sunday choir warm-up plus playing the > prelude, warming up the choir PLUS handbell choirs, etc.) I think you > can cover a heck of a lot more ground with more than one person, and > for less money. > I'm anxious to be instructed and illumined on this topic... please > write me offline and if there's any interest, I will compile and send. > > Chuck Peery > Cincinnati > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Drawbars From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:50:17 -0500   Dear Frank, You should probably look at e bay for that. I believe that I saw some Hammond instruction manuals there. Also the Hammond system is pretty = simple. If you start from the left there are two brown drawbars. The farthest from the left is supposedly a 16' then a 10 1/2. Next are the black and white drawbars.. Starting with the first black one to the left is the 8' then = next black is the 4', then the 2' then the 1'. The ones in between (the white ones) are the fractions between them. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: <FRANKELGINE@aol.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 10:20 AM Subject: Drawbars     > >Does anybody know where I could find a full explanation of the use of = the > >drawbars for a Hammond Electronic Model L-122 Serial Nbr 83958? > >I understand that there is a book called 'The Drawbar Digest' but I = have > >never been able to find the publisher. > >Thank you. > >Frank Mann > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Faure From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 14:15:28 -0500   Gregory,   There's the great story of an occasion when Widor left Faure alone to play = on the   main organ at St. Sulpice, and purposely left on the big Trompette. That = stop is   on a foot control, and Faure did not know how to turn it off, so he was = forced to play the entire Mass en chamade! Is it true? It is, according to = Daniel Roth.   -WG     > > Subject: Faure > From: <Gfc234@aol.com> > Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:46:02 EST > > Does anyone know any interesting biographical facts about Gabriel Faure? = Any > comments on the Requiem would be appreciated. > Thanks, > Gfc > > Gregory Ceurvorst > M.M. Organ Performance Student > Northwestern University > Director of Music and Organist > St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL > 847.332.2788 home > 708.243.2549 mobile > gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Faure From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 16:16:41 EST   In a message dated 12/7/2003 1:14:47 PM Central Standard Time, walterg@nauticom.net writes:   There's the great story of an occasion when Widor left Faure alone to play = on the   main organ at St. Sulpice, and purposely left on the big Trompette. That stop is   on a foot control, and Faure did not know how to turn it off, so he was = forced to play the entire Mass en chamade! Is it true? It is, according to = Daniel Roth. I know that one! What a story! I particularly enjoy the part about how Faure gets his "revenge"... gfc             Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Student Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Faure From: "V. David Barton" <vdbarton@erols.com> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 16:39:47 -0500   No fair, Greg! Share with the rest of us! I know that one! What a story! I particularly enjoy the part about = how Faure gets his "revenge"...  
(back) Subject: Re: Drawbars From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 16:43:47 EST   In a message dated 12/7/2003 9:21:56 AM Central Standard Time, FRANKELGINE@aol.com writes: Does anybody know where I could find a full explanation of the use of the >drawbars for a Hammond Electronic Model L-122 Serial Nbr 83958? >I understand that there is a book called 'The Drawbar Digest' but I have >never been able to find the publisher. >Thank you. >Frank Mann "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org To get even crazier, there is a book called "Hammond Registration." I = would give you the author, but I can't seem to locate my copy now (grrrrrrr). Good luck, Greg   Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Student Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Church: full-time or part time? From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 16:54:07 EST   Hi Chuck,   Don't even think about taking away what few jobs there are for us = "trained" people.   geez, why don't we have 3 part time ministers and then we don't have to = pay them living wages nor benes and each can work 2 days.   nothing personal here Chuck, but those of the MANY of us who train for = this and long to serve our God with the talents given to us need to eat too.     dale in Florida    
(back) Subject: Re: Drawbars From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 16:59:00 EST   In a message dated 12/7/2003 3:44:38 PM Central Standard Time, = Gfc234@aol.com writes: To get even crazier, there is a book called "Hammond Registration." I = would give you the author, but I can't seem to locate my copy now (grrrrrrr). Good luck, Greg Found it! I moved a few months ago and was afraid that I lost it.   The book is called Dictionary of Hammond Organ Stops by Stevens Irwin. Published by G. Schirmer, New York. copyright 1939 and 1952.   The order of draw bars is: 16', 5 and 1/3', 8' , 4', 2 and 2/3', 2', 1 and 3/5', 1 and 1/3', = 1'.   The book contains several pages of drawbar combinations that produce = various solo stops- string, reed, principal, and flute choruses, tutti's = etc...It's a fun book to have! Greg.         Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Student Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Drawbars From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 14:08:22 -0800   The drawbars are basically the same on all Hammond organs, though the 16' and 5 1/3' ones were omitted from some of the Spinets, and there were a couple (septieme and something else ... none plus something really weird on one drawbar) added to very late ones, but they were never included in standard "Hammond Registrations".   From left to right:   Brown - 16' Brown - 5 1/3' (NOT 10 2/3')   White - 8' White - 4' Black - 2 2/3' White - 2'   Black - 1 3/5' Black - 1 1/3' White - 1'   Some older Hammond players (like myself) write registrations with those gaps between the groups, thus:   00-8756-234   as we were taught to call the first group of two "sub-unison group", the next group of four "unison group", and the last group of three "harmonic group", and to think of them as separate groups WITHIN the drawbars.   Younger Hammond organists (I guess there ARE some) (chuckle) turn their noses up at that one.   There were also conventions for hand-registering on the drawbars without using the presets ... I think you put a line OVER the number if it was to be INCREASED, and a line UNDER the number if it was to be DECREASED .... anybody else remember that?   Cheers,   Bud   Gfc234@aol.com wrote:   > In a message dated 12/7/2003 9:21:56 AM Central Standard Time, > FRANKELGINE@aol.com writes: > > Does anybody know where I could find a full explanation of the use > of the > >drawbars for a Hammond Electronic Model L-122 Serial Nbr 83958? > >I understand that there is a book called 'The Drawbar Digest' but > I have > >never been able to find the publisher. > >Thank you. > >Frank Mann > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related = topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > To get even crazier, there is a book called "Hammond Registration." I > would give you the author, but I can't seem to locate my copy now > (grrrrrrr). > Good luck, > Greg > > Gregory Ceurvorst > M.M. Organ Performance Student > Northwestern University > Director of Music and Organist > St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL > 847.332.2788 home > 708.243.2549 mobile > gfc234@aol.com <http://gfc234@aol.com/>      
(back) Subject: Re: Drawbars From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 16:32:46 -0600   At 4:59 PM -0500 12/7/03, Gfc234@aol.com wrote: > >The book is called Dictionary of Hammond Organ Stops by Stevens >Irwin. Published by G. Schirmer, New York. copyright 1939 and 1952. > >The order of draw bars is: >16', 5 and 1/3', 8' , 4', 2 and 2/3', 2', 1 and 3/5', 1 and 1/3', = 1'.   The book is long out of print but can usually be found on Ebay for a fairly reasonable price. There are two copies there right now. Both auctions end tomorrow for those copies.   David