PipeChat Digest #4145 - Monday, December 8, 2003 Re: Consoles: English or Terrace? by "Peter Rodwell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Console Rebuilding by "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Re: Church: full-time or part time? by "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Re: Console Rebuilding by "Bill Raty" <email@example.com> Consoles: English, American, or French Terraces? by <TubaMagna@aol.com> Re: Console Rebuilding by <TubaMagna@aol.com> Re: Console Rebuilding by "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Re: Church: full-time or part time? by <MFoxy9795@aol.com> Advice on Allen by "tom carter" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Church: full-time or part time? by <MFoxy9795@aol.com> Re.: CONSOLE REBUILDING by "leora holcomb" <email@example.com> RE: Church: full-time or part time? by "Storandt, Peter" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: Re: Consoles: English or Terrace? by "Larry Wheelock" <email@example.com> Re: Christchurch Macclesfield by "John Foss" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Church: full-time or part time? by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> RE: Subject: Re: Consoles: English or Terrace? by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Re: Advice on Allen by <RMaryman@aol.com>
(back) Subject: Re: Consoles: English or Terrace? From: "Peter Rodwell" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 11:14:34 +0100 Obviously we're talking about detached consoles here, or at least reversed ones. I've never heard of this being done, but could not the best features of both be combined: "English" style stop jambs but with a gap between them to give the organist the required visibility? The gap could be fitted with a plate glass music rack to protect the organist from draughts and/or thrown objects. Just my 2 euros' worth. Peter.
(back) Subject: Console Rebuilding From: "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 05:47:28 -0600 Hi! Here's a question related to the console thread that' going on.... At my church we have an untouched 1923 4/43 E.M. Skinner. Its not one of his best installations but it does have some of the signature orchestral stops and a harp/celesta that's been restored before much of the rest of the organ (we have to set our priorities) Anyhow, the console is in the ABSOLUTE WORST place for the organist. The organist CAN'T see ANYTHING that's going on up front (with or without mirrors) and it is impossible for the choir to see the organist in they sing in the loft, combined with the fact that the loft was designed for a quartet rather than a choir. Here's the question....do you get the console rebuilt with modern technology so that it will be more practical and be able to be easily moved out front or do you keep it in original condition for historical purposes and so you have a chance of getting an OHS plaque for it. I know this will get LOTS of varied responses! :) Blessings, Beau Surratt Minister of Worship and Music United Church of Hyde Park, Chicago Home Email: Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com
(back) Subject: Re: Church: full-time or part time? From: "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 05:59:33 -0600 Hi! Wow....sounds like I'm really at a disadvantage on this one....I'm a PART TIME Organist/Director and I feel like I put ALMOST as much work in as a full time person....but I do love my job and the people there and I feel that they are very receptive to the work I do. Fortunately thought I have a partner that makes more than I do and his income helps pay bills :) Blessings, Beau Surratt Minister of Worship and Music United Church of Hyde Park, Chicago Home Email: Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com
(back) Subject: Re: Console Rebuilding From: "Bill Raty" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 05:53:37 -0800 (PST) How about both: 1. Restore the old console -and- 2. Add a new movable console with modern features. My $0.02 . -Bill --- Beau Surratt <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> wrote: > Hi! > Here's a question related to the console thread that' going > on.... > > At my church we have an untouched 1923 4/43 E.M. Skinner. Its > not one of > his best installations but it does have some of the signature > orchestral > stops and a harp/celesta that's been restored before much of > the rest of > the organ (we have to set our priorities) > > Anyhow, the console is in the ABSOLUTE WORST place for the > organist. The > organist CAN'T see ANYTHING that's going on up front (with or > without > mirrors) and it is impossible for the choir to see the > organist in they > sing in the loft, combined with the fact that the loft was > designed for a > quartet rather than a choir. > > Here's the question....do you get the console rebuilt with > modern > technology so that it will be more practical and be able to > be easily > moved out front or do you keep it in original condition for > historical > purposes and so you have a chance of getting an OHS plaque > for it. > > I know this will get LOTS of varied responses! :) > > Blessings, > Beau Surratt > Minister of Worship and Music > United Church of Hyde Park, Chicago > Home Email: Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & > related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:email@example.com > Administration: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:email@example.com > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
(back) Subject: Consoles: English, American, or French Terraces? From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:04:45 EST Yes, it DOES make a difference. And the three styles are not the same. = You are going to do this only once, because it is costly, so PLEASE do = your research. Since a decision has been made against rocking tablets or stopkeys (although many prefer these, as one can "read" an entire division at once, = and engage an entire chorus or cornet with a single motion) here are some of = the differences between the various drawknob configurations. The layout of the = knobs is NOT the only consideration. ENGLISH: Drawknobs are almost always confined to two vertical rows = per division, making the tonal grundriss of the division(s) quickly apparent. = They appear in their standard order, and the eye wanders less than in the = American system. While a very elegant look, be aware that in a larger instrument, adherence to the two-column-per-department system results in a higher = console, often obstructing much of the organist's views. Traditionally, = INTER-MANUAL couplers are almost invariably included in the knob fields, NOT in a row = of tablets above the top manual keyboard. This further increases height. AMERICAN: Drawknobs are also disposed on angled side jambs, but with more variance of planting; as many as four or five vertical columns, = although most often three, make up a division. This certainly reduces the height of = the keydesk. Americans much prefer that their intra-manual couplers be = controlled by knobs within the divisional fields, but they dispose their inter-manual couplers in a row of rocker tablets above the top manual keyboard. TERRACED and FRENCH AMPHITEATRE: Absolutely stunning from the visual point of view, and for the past two decades, an inescapable fad. But are = they practical and easy to use, other than for the regular organist, who = eventually learns the layout as second nature? Knobs for each division may not = necessarily all be grouped together. Knobs for a particular division may be = confusingly distant from their respective manual keyboards. Coupler controls are via cuilleres, or "toe spoons." Advantage? The keydesk need only be as high as = the top manual keyboard, and these keydesks are visual showpieces. DESIGN CONSIDERATIONS: For wing terraces on English and American = styles, are the knob fields to be separated, or visually blend into a single = field? Are jambs to be at 45 degrees? 60 degrees? Those are the two most common arrangements, so figure out what you need. In smaller organs, the knobs = can come straight out, in the style of John Marklove and other builders. For = terraced consoles, straight-line or angled terraces (in the 19th century American = manner) provide an equal number of knob opportunities in each row, yet for those spectacular "amphitheatre" configurations like Saint Sulpice, the knob = count varies, from six knobs in the bottom row, to eighteen in the top row. I could go on, but that is up to you and whoever builds your console = for you. But isn't it amazing how we got from "six of one, half a dozen of the = other," to a myriad of basics, before we even get to the details? Sebastian M. Gluck Tonal Director, Gluck New York, Restorers and Builders Editor, Journal of American Organbuilding Columnist, The American Organist ("Understanding the Pipe Organ") ..
(back) Subject: Re: Console Rebuilding From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:18:27 EST A good organbuilder can retain the Skinner pneumatic technology and still render the console movable with added cabling and a flexible wind line. = Your concerns seem to be about placement, hearing, and sight lines, not the = technology. More than one huge Skinner, and many Aeolian-Skinners, are still on their original consoles. Sebastian M. Gluck New York City
(back) Subject: Re: Console Rebuilding From: "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 08:19:05 -0600 HI! That was my initial idea- but I would be hard pressed to get the people at this church to do one or the other, muchless both. Oh for a perfect world! :) Advent Blessings, Beau
(back) Subject: Re: Church: full-time or part time? From: <MFoxy9795@aol.com> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 10:42:44 -0500 Who sez? That's assuming you can find another position at all in this = economy, let alone one that will fit around the hours required by a church = position. There are usually some afternoon rehearsals, morning staff = meetings, and so on, that preclude a regular 9 to 5 job. If a musician = is already devoting practically a full week to a job, why should they have = to be forced to "supplement"? Merry Foxworth =B4=A8=A8)) -:=A6:- =B8.=B7=B4 .=B7=B4=A8=A8)) ((=B8=B8.=B7=B4 ..=B7=B4 -:=A6:- An excerpt from Robert Giddings "Musical Quotes and Anecdotes", published in Longman Pocket Companions: "There let the pealing organ blow, To the full-voiced choir below, In service high, and anthems clear, As may with sweetness, through mine ear, Dissolve me into ecstasies, And bring all Heav'n before mine eyes". John Milton - Il Penseroso (1632). Open Door Realty Boston, MA 02131 617 469-4888 x207 877 865-1703 toll free http://www.opendoorrlty.com/ In a message dated 12/7/2003 8:50:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, = Innkawgneeto@cs.com writes: > I will suffice it to say, the "benefit" of working part-time at a church = as organist/choir director is that you are not > solely dependent on said institution for your livelihood.
(back) Subject: Advice on Allen From: "tom carter" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 07:50:18 -0800 (PST) Hello, I'm probably about to purchase my first practice instrument of my very = own! Goodbye to poorly climate-controlled sanctuaries and scheduling = conflicts! Hello to playing in my pj's! Can anybody out there supply me = with dates of production, approx. dimensions and do's and don'ts for = moving an Allen T12B? Much obliged, Tom --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing
(back) Subject: Re: Church: full-time or part time? From: <MFoxy9795@aol.com> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 10:54:03 -0500 A conductor cannot pay them "full attention" in my opinion if they are = part time and have to "supplement" income elsewhere. The setup you are describing (below) is something that could only happen = in VERY BIG churches with VERY BIG programs. The logistics would just not = work out for multiple rehearsals at the same time in most church = buildings. And several conductors means no unity in the music program. = Others responding to this post make a good point that the music program is = best in the hands of a single individual who is competent, has people = skills, and who is being COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY! (that is not to say = that this person has to do EVERYTHING him/herself, but DELEGATES this = responsibility.) Merry Foxworth =B4=A8=A8)) -:=A6:- =B8.=B7=B4 .=B7=B4=A8=A8)) ((=B8=B8.=B7=B4 ..=B7=B4 -:=A6:- An excerpt from Robert Giddings "Musical Quotes and Anecdotes", published in Longman Pocket Companions: "There let the pealing organ blow, To the full-voiced choir below, In service high, and anthems clear, As may with sweetness, through mine ear, Dissolve me into ecstasies, And bring all Heav'n before mine eyes". John Milton - Il Penseroso (1632). Open Door Realty Boston, MA 02131 617 469-4888 x207 877 865-1703 toll free http://www.opendoorrlty.com/In a message dated 12/7/2003 8:03:56 AM = Eastern Standard Time, email@example.com writes: > 1) I think choirs do better if they have a conductor who can pay them > full attention. If the choir does better, it has better growth > potential. 2) As far as the people contact is concerned, it tends to > happen in sporadic bursts. I mean, full time... doesn't that mean > you're pretty much alone at the church all day (I'd think daytimes are > typically downtime in terms of congregation contact) and then you're > absolutely snowed under when it comes to the rehearsal schedule in a > developed program? One person can string out all the rehearsals on > every available week night, but in order for people to potentially > participate in various offerings, I think it's better to have several > directors conducting activities at one time and cluster > them on one or > two week nights, or Sunday late afternoon, or whatever.
(back) Subject: Re.: CONSOLE REBUILDING From: "leora holcomb" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 08:08:26 -0800 (PST) It is possible for a good organ technician craftsman to rebuild = (releather) the old Skinner consoles, or gut the consoles and replace = everything with solid state components. Consideration has to be given on preserving a console for historical = reasons, or making the console better to function as a workhorse in a = church situation. Many old consoles did not have general pistons. One = old Skinner (1920) that I used to service had couplers in the strangest = configuration. The couplers that are usually on drawknobs were on the = nameboard, and there was no combination action for the couplers! Also, = there were no unison offs. Finding a coupler was like looking for a = needle in a haystack. This organ had no historical value, but the organ = man "rebuilt" the console by adding solid-state components, but left all = the couplers as they were, and still the organ has no general pistons. = The only thing different is that he reversed the location of the Great and = Choir stops. This was supposed to make the console better. It's been = about ten years, and I still haven't figured that one out. So much for = historical authenticity. Also, much releathering I had done, at quite an expense to the church, was = supposedly thrown out. My advice is to do what is best for your liturgical needs, and put = historical consideration in second place. D. Keith Morgan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing
(back) Subject: RE: Church: full-time or part time? From: "Storandt, Peter" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 10:20:36 -0600 Or not even half. There is a tendency to "discount" what part-timers "need," since, after all, they're willing to work part-time. And don't even talk about benefits. Peter John Speller wrote: Your statement "for less money" is only too true --=20 if you split the post each candidate only gets half as much! John Speller Charles Peery wrote: > Hi, all, > Would anyone be willing to share their experience (anecdotal or=20 > statistical) about the relative benefits/drawbacks of a church music=20 > program based on a full-time position vs. a (or several) part-time=20 > position(s
(back) Subject: Subject: Re: Consoles: English or Terrace? From: "Larry Wheelock" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 10:55:09 -0600 Having lived with both -- as choral conductor as well as organist -- I am convinced that there is no inherent advantage to either; it is totally dependent upon the situation. In a church I formerly served, the choir sat in an area that was mostly level, and almost at floor level. An 'English-Style' console would have precluded my conducting from the console. The choir could see me easily over a sizable 3-manual terraced console.** In my current situation, the console is in a pit and the choir on steep risers. Even though it is a large 4-manual English-Style console, I have no trouble at all in conducting -- everyone can see me just fine -- IF I can convince them to look up once in a while. :-) Whichever you chose -- please insist that the knobs be engraved in a large readable type-font. I recently played a superb instrument by one of our "boutique' builders on which the knobs were engraved in an ultra-fancy Edwardian Script and totally unreadable. I couldn't tell the 'Hautbois' from the 'Diapason Conique.' I suppose, the incumbent would quickly get used to it, but it was a pain-in-the-neck for a visiting musician. **And -- herein lies another thread -- conducting from the console. Many of us are quite skilled at this, and I am convinced that the best of us have a talent as well as an education in this. I, personally, find it very difficult to conduct while playing, and my choir is quite used to responding to the snap of my head or a raised eyebrow; neither technique was covered in my Choral Conducting 101 course. If you are gifted and skilled at it -- more power to you, and I envy you. My pet peeve, however is the organist who sits glued to the bench while conducting an 'a capella' piece, as though getting to the floor would soil his 'organmaster shoes.' This is a plea -- whenever you can -- in rehearsal or service -- get your butt off that bench and really conduct the choir. It can make a real difference. Your choir needs to see you whole body, not just some disembodied hands flailing at them. Try it -- they will respond, i guarantee it!. Larry Wheelock Director of Music Ministries Kenwood United Methodist Church Milwaukee, Wisconsin email@example.com
(back) Subject: Re: Christchurch Macclesfield From: "John Foss" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:29:45 +0000 (GMT) December 8th email@example.com wrote about Christchurch Macclesfield. I looked at the church website - unusual building and interesting history. Intellectual arguments were perhaps even fiercer 200 years ago! The NPOR says that it has been used as an organ store since 1995 - is this correct, and if so are there any interesting bits and pieces there? John Foss =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D www.johnfoss.gr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ Topics of the week : Opera Censorship and the right to silence ________________________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Save =A380 when you order online today. Hurry! Offer = ends 21st December 2003. The way the internet was meant to be. = http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D21064/*http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk
(back) Subject: RE: Church: full-time or part time? From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 18:24:52 -0500 More with a deep knowledge and love of church music have gone to the = trouble of learning to play the organ as well as direct, than have = become choir directors only. When you go with a part-time choir = director, you are liable to get someone who makes it primarily on = personality, not only borderline incompetent musically but who knows = nothing and cares less for any liturgical and ceremonial niceties that = your tradition may hold. If you snag someone whose formal = qualifications consist of so much as a degree in vocal music education, = consider yourself fortunate. They will usually cluelessly choose a = succession of random musical junk to perform, which they will elicit = from the gang by waving their hands wildly in front of everyone, perhaps = in the center of the chancel after planting a music stand before the = altar. =20 Suffering under his or her thumb and chafing in a subordinate position = will be an organist who is not only a much better musician and = liturgist, but probably in a perpetual cringe at the manifold = inappropriateness of the goings-on with which he or she has agreed to = associate. I'm afraid this has usually (not always, I hasten to say, but = usually) been my lot where I have served merely as organist, wherefore = the most painless thing to do is to take the money and run. Lotsa = dedication there, huh. Some denominations take pride in "re-imaging" themselves continually so = that this prospect would present no problem at all for them. But in = others it should be seen as a serious problem. What is not passed on = from this generation to the next is unlikely ever to be recovered.
(back) Subject: RE: Subject: Re: Consoles: English or Terrace? From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 19:34:45 -0500 Larry Wheelock writes: > This is a plea -- whenever you can -- in rehearsal or service -- get = your butt off that bench and really conduct the choir. It can make a = real difference. Your choir needs to see your whole body, not just some = disembodied hands flailing at them. Try it -- they will respond, i = guarantee it!.=20 This matter relates to another current thread, about full- vs. part-time = church musicians. I prefer to think of it as combined vs. divided = positions, because even if there is no question of hiring someone = full-time, any points in favor of the single organist-choirmaster will = apply. In days of yore, the English cathedral choirs, among the finest in the = world, usually sang their services without=20 conducting from the organist/choirmaster, who like as not might be = completely out of sight in the organ loft. One of the men, or even one = of the boys, on each side might co-ordinate with each other and = discreetly tap a finger or undulate a hand for the benefit of those on = the opposite side. If the choirmaster did conduct, his demeanor would = be as inconspicuous as possible. A former chorister of the legendary = Conrad Eden at Durham Cathedral, for instance, recalled that when Mr. = Eden ever emerged from the organ loft to conduct the anthem, he would = float into place as silently and smoothly as a ghost. While on his way = past the choir stalls, his hands would be folded. By the time he turned = around at the music rack, the piece of music had magically appeared in = his hands, and it was something of a mystery to the choristers how this = happened. All such choirmasters would (and still do) stand on one side = next to the stalls (*never* "in medio chori") facing away from the nave, = and use very restrained gestures. Nowadays the choirs are more often = conducted throughout the service, and it is one of the three reasons I = have heard for their standards' being even higher now than then (the = other two are the availability of recordings and a higher ratio of = rehearsal to service time than fifty years ago). An assistant might = accompany the choral music and play voluntaries, but if the head honcho = were conducting, he would return to the console to play the hymns = himself.
(back) Subject: Re: Advice on Allen From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:24:11 EST In a message dated 12/8/2003 10:51:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > Can anybody out there supply me with dates of production, approx. > ? I know that the T-12-A was still in production in aoubt 1975 because a = friend of mine bought one brand new from the DC area Allen sales reps. This organ = was also known as the Allen Rondo, and came in various configurations, = mostly a question of how many pedal stops (the "T" is that is was a transistorized machine) The original Rondo had 2 16' stops, the T-12A had 5 (16, 16, 8, 5 = 2/3, and 4) not sure about the the t-12B. but the t-12A was a fully = self-enclosed organ, no external speakers, tho the Rondo usually had a single external "Gyrophonic" style speaker unit. As fas as moving it...get losts of helpers...they are quite heavy, as alll = the generators and amps and other circuitry is self-contained. Also, check = to see that the pedal board is on dis-connect plugs or the pedals will be = teathered to the console, which will make moving it more of a challenge! Rick in VA