PipeChat Digest #4170 - Tuesday, December 23, 2003
 
Re: P.S.
  by "Domitila Ballesteros" <dballesteros@uol.com.br>
Re: Winter solstice
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Re: Sleeping in an organ (was Bats in the Belfry...)
  by <bruce.shaw@shaw.ca>
Re: Puer nobis
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Got my Couperin recording
  by <bruce.shaw@shaw.ca>
Re: Puer Nobis
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Puer Nobis
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Dubois' "Seven Last Words of Christ"
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: P.S.
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Dubois Seven Last Words
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
my usual Christmas offering
  by "Jonathan Orwig" <giwro@adelphia.net>
Re: Dubois Seven Last Words
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Dubois Seven Last Words
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
my funniest "Messiah" story (X-posted)
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Dubois Seven Last Words
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
the Jesuits
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Puer nobis
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
Re: Puer nobis
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Puer nobis
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
Visit to Washington DC (was: Organ shoes and music)
  by "Joe Karashani" <jtkarash@coppernet.zm>
 

(back) Subject: Re: P.S. From: "Domitila Ballesteros" <dballesteros@uol.com.br> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:26:11 -0200   Hi,   Yes, is there. Is the   CHORALTALK-L@indiana.edu   Domitila Ballesteros   Charlie Lester wrote:   > There is, or was, a list similar to PIPORG-L and PIPECHAT for choral > directors, etc. Anyone know if that list is still active, or, better > yet, does anyone subscribe to it? If so, would you mind forwarding my > query about the Dubois to them? > > Thx > > ~ > C > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >        
(back) Subject: Re: Winter solstice From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:28:09 -0600       Myosotis51@aol.com wrote:   > Hello Alan, > > In reference to your comment: > > =E8 Time to check your computer's clock. A lot of them a > =E8 seriously out of whack. > > You can find the free Atomic Clock Synch utility here: > > http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/file_description/0,fid,16627,00.asp > > It's a small download, and works really well.   You can also get wall clocks that stay in contact contact the Atomic Clock and adjust the time and even automatically turn themselves back and forward an hour for Daylight Saving Time. We have one in the main workshop at QPO and another in our church, but rather curiously both of them always go to being exactly two minutes fast however we set them.   John Speller      
(back) Subject: Re: Sleeping in an organ (was Bats in the Belfry...) From: <bruce.shaw@shaw.ca> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:53:24 -0700   I didn't actually meet the gentleman in question as it happened before the = 9:30 service and I heard about it at the 11:00.   >I would like to offer a challenge regarding the homeless person as the = biggest living object found asleep inside an organ.   >It all depends how tall he was, because Denys Thurlow, the UK organ = builder, slept on the Great soundboard in a sleeping bag, whilst voicing = the (then) new organ of Liverpool RC Cathedral.   That sounds like more of a planned event but it does remind me of the time = during my University days when a rowdy party in residence prevented from = sleeping before a big exam so I went back to the Faculty of Music and = crashed out behind one of the practice organs.          
(back) Subject: Re: Puer nobis From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:28:56 -0500   On 12/23/03 1:15 AM, "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> = wrote:   > I know I have sung something to that tune, but I cannot figure out what. = Does > anyone know what a Catholic growing up in the nineties would have sung = to > that? Not What Star Is This?, That Day with Easter Joy Was Bright, or = How > Wonderful the Three in One.   Alicia: Because I'm a Lutheran, this may not apply. But with that cautionary, we associate Puer nobis [nascitur] very much with Advent, and surely the most common text we use for the tune is "On Jordan's banks the Baptist's cry" (much wordplay on that one, of course). That text = (Jordanis ora praevia) is by Charles Coffin (1676-1740). The tune IS also used for Vom Himmel kam der Engel Schar ("The Shepherds as they watched by night"). THAT text is by (gasp!) Luther.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Got my Couperin recording From: <bruce.shaw@shaw.ca> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:52:18 -0700   It's Jean-Patrice Brosse on the Virgin label. The recording consists of = one to three soloists singing portions of the mass, followed by the = appropriate Couperin bit.   Here's links:   http://classical.onino.co.uk/classical/couperin_organ_masses_2.html   http://shopping.yahoo.com/p_couperin-organ-masses_music_1921577457?&clink= =3D&__yltc=3Ds:84393300,d:15415387,sec:artprod,slk:classical   I've listened to it once and he makes some interesting decisions, using = registrations different than in my Kalmus, leaving out marked ornaments = and adding pedal in some spots where the music doesn't call for it. He = does the pieces I know pretty much the way I'm used to playing them = (except a LOT faster).   Is Brosse trustworthy?   Is there an authoritative source online of the exact makeup of what = Couperin wants for "petit plein jeu" and so on? I'm not used to hearing = it with a 16'.          
(back) Subject: Re: Puer Nobis From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:57:05 -0500   On 12/23/03 1:51 AM, "RonSeverin@aol.com" <RonSeverin@aol.com> wrote:   > The only reference to Puer Nobis Is Puer Nobis Nascitur a modal > tune by Leisentrill 1567. It's number 180 in the St. Pius X hymnal. > Michael Praetorius may have used it in someway later for one > of his choral works. It is an old Christmas hymn.   Abso right on M. Praetorius. It bounces and dances, and is tons of fun.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Puer Nobis From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:58:51 -0500   On 12/23/03 1:56 AM, "Paul White" <paulwh@optusnet.com.au> wrote:   > The only one that I have sung is "Unto Us a Boy is Born". > But beginning a bit oddly on the downbeat, right? Yet each following line begins on the pickup. (Or not?)   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Dubois' "Seven Last Words of Christ" From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:10:53 -0500   On 12/23/03 2:19 AM, "Charlie Lester" <crlester@137.com> wrote:   > I am the Organist and Music Director for Holy Trinity > Evangelical Lutheran Church in Inglewood, California -- have > been there 14 years, and am also the Organist and Choir > Director for Faith Lutheran Church (MS) in Inglewood. > Charlie: Never heard of you. And can't help at all on the Dubois. But = I'm glad to see you on this list, and look forward to hearing from you muchly. We need some good Lutheran influence here!   Alan Freed www.stlukesnyc.org   P.S.: Is your dad "Bud"? Classmate of mine at PLU, Tacoma?    
(back) Subject: Re: P.S. From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:16:11 -0500   On 12/23/03 2:25 AM, "Charlie Lester" <crlester@137.com> wrote:   > There is, or was, a list similar to PIPORG-L and PIPECHAT > for choral directors, etc. Anyone know if that list is still > active, or, better yet, does anyone subscribe to it? If so, > would you mind forwarding my query about the Dubois to them? > Charlie, you may be referring to OrganChat. Very much alive. And I think they have a number of Californian listers. Dubois fans--couldn't say. I'll post your inquiry there in a few minutes.   Alan   OrganChat, the Friendly List ---   To unsubscribe, mailto:organchat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com For moderator service, mailto:ocmoderator@desertsounds.com You can listen to Pipedreams at http://www.pipedreams.org   Yahoo! Groups Links   To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organchat/   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: organchat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/    
(back) Subject: Dubois Seven Last Words From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:49:04 -0800   I have two problems with the Dubois as typically presented: the English translation, and the use of the organ only for accompaniment.   A number of years ago I heard a recording of it performed in the original Latin with the original orchestral accompaniment. It was a revelation.   The translation is an odd mixture of Latin word order and an attempt to conform the text to the KJV ... matching the word accents to the musical accents goes by the boards far more often than it should as a result.   For example: the opening soprano solo ... "O vos omnes" is one of the most ancient laments in the Christian liturgy. "O my people", with its "e" vowel sound replacing the open "o" vowel of the original on the high note strikes a jarring note (for me, at least) right off the bat.   Replacing "Reus est mortis" with "he of death is guilty" ... well, you see my point (grin).   The G. Schirmer edition (both the piano-vocal score AND the organ score) omits a LOT of the orchestral color and counter-melodies, though the organ score makes MORE of an attempt to be faithful to the original.   I never got round to doing an "authentic" performance (I was in an RC church where I COULD have), but as I recall it WAS possible to thin the orchestra down somewhat, retaining those instruments that had important solo lines, and leaving some of the accompanimental string and woodwind parts to the organ ... something similar to Rutter's reconstruction of the original orchestration of the Faure Requiem, or Durufle's adaptation of the orchestral part of his own Requiem for organ, brass and timpani.   The earthquake at the end, of course, is virtually impossible to reproduce on the organ ... there is simply no way to mimic those biting string tremolandos. As somebody said, it can quickly disintegrate into sounding like the Hammond B-3 background music for "Plan Nine From Outer Space" (grin).   It was considered politically correct to denigrate performances of the Dubois back in the 1960s, along with The Crucifixion, Olivet to Calvary, and Penitence, Pardon, and Peace, when in point of fact what was needed was an historically-informed approach.   At the VERY least, I'd go back to the full orchestral score of the Dubois and write the most important melodies back into the piano-vocal or organ score. I BELIEVE the orchestral score is still available from Kalmus; I don't know if G. Schirmer still prints or rents it, or the orchestral parts. I know that when I went looking for them, I FOUND them eventually.   I realize the Latin text is a problem in most Protestant churches ... perhaps a fresh attempt at a NEW English translation is called for.   Messiah has suffered a similar distortion at the hands of volunteer church choirs for centuries. I don't know WHO started the rumor that Messiah is EASY, because it ISN'T ... and it's CERTAINLY not easy for the average parish organist to PLAY without an orchestra.   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: my usual Christmas offering From: "Jonathan Orwig" <giwro@adelphia.net> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:18:31 -0800   Well, friends, it's once again that time...   Every year for the last few I've been offering a free sample of my music = to the lists I'm on as a Christmas gift... this year is no exception, as I = am offering my Trio on Joy to the World. I usually send out the PDF, but I simply = do not=20 have time to answer the emails this year (I got over 200 requests last = year!)   I'll be sending out a URL this year instead, and ask that you let me = know if you enjoyed the music. There also will be links to 2 possible = renditions (mp3 files) so you can hear what I have done to it registration-wise   Watch your email later today!   Jonathan Orwig Riverside, California USA        
(back) Subject: Re: Dubois Seven Last Words From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 13:46:41 -0500   On 12/23/03 12:49 PM, "quilisma@cox.net" <quilisma@cox.net> wrote:   > perhaps a fresh attempt at a NEW English translation [of the Seven Last W= ords > (Dubois)] is called for.   But even if you got it, would not the (devotional) value of the music outweigh that of the text? Isn't it more of ein Konzertst=FCck than a liturgy? But, then, for what?   Alan (grumpy as WELL as uninformed) =20    
(back) Subject: Re: Dubois Seven Last Words From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:13:06 -0800   No, Alan. Its origins are at least quasi-liturgical. Prior to 1950 or so, the Roman Catholic Holy Week liturgies were celebrated very early in the morning ... even the Maundy Thursday Mass (!).   The BIG popular services were Tenebrae on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday nights, and the Preaching of the Tre Ore, or Three Hours' Agony on Good Friday from noon till 3 p.m.   The Jesuits introduced the Tre Ore to GIVE an extended opportunity to preach in the vernacular on Good Friday, as all the other services, including Tenebrae, were entirely in Latin.   It was customary to SING each Word before the sermon on it. There are a number of settings: Haydn, Gounod, Dubois.   The Gounod, by the way, is a GORGEOUS unaccompanied setting ending with a double-chorus on "Father, Into Thy Hands I Commend My Spirit." I THINK it's still available in Latin and English from Novello-Kent (?) through their reprint-on-demand service.   We used to do BOTH (gasp! pant!) at Old St. Mary's: Tre Ore from noon to 3 p.m., WITH choir, followed immediately by the Good Friday liturgy, which usually lasted until 6 p.m. (!) ... six hours of unaccompanied singing.   Cheers,   Bud   Alan Freed wrote:   > On 12/23/03 12:49 PM, "quilisma@cox.net" <quilisma@cox.net> wrote: > > >>perhaps a fresh attempt at a NEW English translation [of the Seven Last = Words >>(Dubois)] is called for. > > > But even if you got it, would not the (devotional) value of the music > outweigh that of the text? Isn't it more of ein Konzertst=FCck than a > liturgy? But, then, for what? > > Alan (grumpy as WELL as uninformed) > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: my funniest "Messiah" story (X-posted) From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:29:10 -0800   My funniest Messiah story has to do with a transplanted Aeolian residence organ that once stood in the Methodist Church in Bartow FL.   It had been a player organ; the player mechanism had been removed; but it was still the original console ... the music rack could still be raised to get to the (now-empty) player box to change the rolls. When the music rack was "down" in playing position, the bottom rested on two brass pins that fit into slots to keep it at the proper angle.   You guessed it ... I slammed a page-turn; the pins came out of the slots, tilting the music rack and dumping the whole score in my lap, AFTER it had bounced off the Swell and Great manuals.   I finished whatever it was from memory, picked up the score, and went on (chuckle).   Cheers,   Bud          
(back) Subject: Re: Dubois Seven Last Words From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:23:32 -0500   On 12/23/03 2:13 PM, "quilisma@cox.net" <quilisma@cox.net> wrote:   > opportunity to preach in the vernacular on Good Friday, as all the other > services, including Tenebrae, were entirely in Latin.   OK. You've certainly answered my question, "But then, for what?"   And that does make sense.   (But it still sounds somewhat 1940s protty to me.)   Alan    
(back) Subject: the Jesuits From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:06:56 -0800   Not protty at all ... the protestants GOT it from the Catholics (grin).   There used to be an elaborate ceremony for erecting a large crucifix in the church whenever the Jesuits came to preach a "Mission" ... the Catholic equivalent of a revival ... sermons were preached, usually on the Four Last Things, confessions were heard in which "reserved" sins could be absolved (the Pope gave the Jesuits the "faculty" to absolve sins that were otherwise reserved to bishops ... really serious stuff), and great handfuls of Plenary Indulgences were granted to those who "made the Mission with attention and devotion." There were also all kinds of indulgences attached to kissing the Mission Cross.   One of the favorite sermon illustrations was this: the preacher would hold his hand over a candle flame and say to the congregation, "you think THIS is hot?" Then he'd SLAM his hand down on the lit candle. "Imagine what HELL must be like!"   Congregations fell for it year after year ... every year they'd jump about a FOOT (chuckle).   Weepy hymns were sung ... mostly about sin and death and purgatory ... the REALLY big one was "Ultima in hora mortis nostrae" ... I can't remember the English right now, but it had to do with driving the devil away from one's deathbed and sparing the soul the torments of purgatory.   It also used to be sung every Sunday night after Poor Souls' Prayers and Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament at the "Bona Mors" ("Good Death") Society meetings, and at the end of priests' retreats.   As Edith Bunker would say, "Those were the days!" (chuckle)   Cheers,   Bud       Alan Freed wrote:   > On 12/23/03 2:13 PM, "quilisma@cox.net" <quilisma@cox.net> wrote: > > >>opportunity to preach in the vernacular on Good Friday, as all the other >>services, including Tenebrae, were entirely in Latin. > > > OK. You've certainly answered my question, "But then, for what?" > > And that does make sense. > > (But it still sounds somewhat 1940s protty to me.) > > Alan > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Puer nobis From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:42:18 -0600   It is On Jordon's Bank from the LBW I am thinking of. I wouldn't have sung it in church, but I did learn it from a Lutheran. Alicia Zeilenga Sub-Dean AGO@UI "Santa Caecilia, ora pro nobis"     -----Original Message----- From: Alan Freed <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:28:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Puer nobis   > On 12/23/03 1:15 AM, "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> > wrote: > > > I know I have sung something to that tune, but I cannot figure out > what. Does > > anyone know what a Catholic growing up in the nineties would have > sung to > > that? Not What Star Is This?, That Day with Easter Joy Was Bright, > or How > > Wonderful the Three in One. > > Alicia: Because I'm a Lutheran, this may not apply. But with that > cautionary, we associate Puer nobis [nascitur] very much with Advent, > and > surely the most common text we use for the tune is "On Jordan's banks > the > Baptist's cry" (much wordplay on that one, of course). That text > (Jordanis > ora praevia) is by Charles Coffin (1676-1740). The tune IS also used > for > Vom Himmel kam der Engel Schar ("The Shepherds as they watched by > night"). > THAT text is by (gasp!) Luther. > > Alan > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >      
(back) Subject: Re: Puer nobis From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:06:15 -0500   On 12/23/03 3:42 PM, "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> = wrote:   > It is On Jordon's Bank from the LBW I am thinking of. I wouldn't have = sung it > in church, but I did learn it from a Lutheran.   I THOUGHT it almost had to be.   But I'm surprised to hear you say (see you write) that you "wouldn't have sung it in church." Almost shocked that you would not. How come? It's a perfectly excellent catholic text (and Lutherans wouldn't have it in their book--I hope!--if it were NOT).   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Puer nobis From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 15:25:02 -0600   We have a different tune, Winchester New, and it wasn't popular when I was growing up. Maybe it was too pre-Vatican II. If I recall correctly it is in the St. Basil Hymnal. In any case, I pretty much had to teach it to my choir when I wanted to use it this Advent. Alicia Zeilenga Sub-Dean AGO@UI "Santa Caecilia, ora pro nobis"     -----Original Message----- From: Alan Freed <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:06:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Puer nobis   > On 12/23/03 3:42 PM, "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> > wrote: > > > It is On Jordon's Bank from the LBW I am thinking of. I wouldn't > have sung it > > in church, but I did learn it from a Lutheran. > > I THOUGHT it almost had to be. > > But I'm surprised to hear you say (see you write) that you "wouldn't > have > sung it in church." Almost shocked that you would not. How come? > It's a > perfectly excellent catholic text (and Lutherans wouldn't have it in > their > book--I hope!--if it were NOT). > > Alan >      
(back) Subject: Visit to Washington DC (was: Organ shoes and music) From: "Joe Karashani" <jtkarash@coppernet.zm> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:28:57 +0200   Dear list members   I am pleased to report that I had a very successful visit to Washington DC, and despite a full conference programme I managed to accomplish some musical shopping. I wish to thank all those who responded to my query and gave me such sound advice.   The Organmaster people were truly courteous and my shoes were duly delivered by Fedex to my hotel at Marriott Courtyard, Connecticut Ave, NW quite promptly. The shoes are a perfect fit and very comfortable.   As to organ music, I found Dale's Music at Silver Spring as advised and, sure enough, got a brand new copy of Gleason's Method (8th Ed, 1996, Edited by Catherine Crozier Gleason). It was quite costly at $99.75, but having come all that way I couldn't leave it, and I am pleased with the quality of production and the solid binding. I discovered another interesting music store on Wisconsin Ave, with the delightful name of *Middle C, Inc*. Although the organ department is not all that extensive, there was plenty for browsing and I came away with a few items, including a copy of the Orgelbuchlein, Liturgical Year Series, Oliver Ditson Co. (I am familiar with the Novello). But the highlight of my visit was attending the 11 o'clock Eucharist at the Washington National Cathedral, with the Choir (men and girls) singing Palestrina's Missa Aeternae Christi Munera. It was most gratifying to find a dignified Anglican service in an atmosphere of peace and solace: a beauty of holiness -- contrary to the impression created by the numerous telecasts from the USA that abound in our part of the world. It was Advent 2 and we sang such inspiring hymns as On Jordan's Bank (Winchester New), Lo! He comes (Helmsley) and another to Aberystwyth. The organ accompaniment was majestic and thrilling, if a bit loud, and many in the congregation remained to hear the postlude, the Great G major P&F, BWV541. . With an equally inspiring sermon it was altogether an edifying experience.   All this plus plenty of snow, which was refreshing but biting cold for me; and I am glad to be back to warm central Africa.   Best wishes to you all for a blessed festive season.   Joe Karashani Cathedral of the Holy Cross Lusaka, Zambia