PipeChat Digest #3427 - Tuesday, February 4, 2003
 
RE: A sad day
  by "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu>
Re: Musical Change for Candlemas
  by "David Carter" <davidorganist2002@yahoo.com>
Re: Thanks for the Hymn. We Did Sing It.
  by "Dennis Goward" <dlgoward@qwest.net>
Musical Change for Candlemas
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
RE: Weddings: right of first refusal put to the test
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
RE: Weddings: right of first refusal put to the test
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
Re: A Sad Day
  by "STRAIGHT" <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net>
Different pastors
  by "STRAIGHT" <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net>
Re: A Scholarly List
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
RE: Comments on Candle-Mass, Feb 2
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
Re: That Mean Old Scholar Again
  by "Teah" <teahzg@charter.net>
Felix Hell in Berrien Springs, Michigan-- notes
  by "Carol Scott" <dclscott@skyenet.net>
Felix Hell in Hartford
  by "mack02445" <mack02445@mindspring.com>
Re: Introducing The Scholarly Organist Group x-post
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: A Sad Day
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: RE: A sad day From: "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:33:41 -0600   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C2CBBB.27FF35F8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Now there's a thought....   =3D20   -----Original Message----- From: Cremona502@cs.com [mailto:Cremona502@cs.com]=3D20 Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 1:37 PM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: A sad day   =3D20   In a message dated 2/3/03 1:55:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, pstorandt@okcu.edu writes:=3D20           But we need Lee in Oklahoma....=3D20           maybe a group move!! ;-)=3D20   Bruce, with Miles, Molly and Degui in the Muttastery at Howling Acres http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 =3D20     ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C2CBBB.27FF35F8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <html>   <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Dus-ascii">     <meta name=3D3DGenerator content=3D3D"Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)">   <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} span.EmailStyle17 {font-family:Arial; color:navy;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style>   </head>   <body lang=3D3DEN-US link=3D3Dblue vlink=3D3Dpurple>   <div class=3D3DSection1>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy = face=3D3DArial><span =3D style=3D3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Now there&#8217;s a =3D thought&#8230;.</span></font></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dnavy = face=3D3DArial><span =3D style=3D3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D2 =3D face=3D3DTahoma><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =3D Message-----<br> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Cremona502@cs.com [mailto:Cremona502@cs.com] <br> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, February = =3D 03, 2003 1:37 PM<br> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =3D pipechat@pipechat.org<br> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: A sad =3D day</span></font></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3 =3D face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D2 =3D face=3D3DArial><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>In a message dated 2/3/03 = =3D 1:55:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, pstorandt@okcu.edu writes: <br> <br> <br> <br> </span></font></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D2 =3D color=3D3Dnavy face=3D3DArial><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>But we need Lee = =3D in Oklahoma&#8230;.</span></font><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dblack = face=3D3DArial =3D FAMILY=3D3DSANSSERIF><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <br> <br> </span></font></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D2 =3D color=3D3Dblack face=3D3DArial><span =3D style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><br> <br> maybe a group move!! &nbsp;;-) <br> <br> Bruce, with Miles, Molly and Degui &nbsp;in the Muttastery at Howling =3D Acres http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; = =3D </span></font></p>   </div>   </body>   </html> =3D00 ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C2CBBB.27FF35F8--  
(back) Subject: Re: Musical Change for Candlemas From: "David Carter" <davidorganist2002@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:48:38 -0800 (PST)   How about the word 'all' in place of 'the'?   --- Malcolm Wechsler <manderusa@earthlink.net> wrote: > Yes, this is the perfect place for a frowned-upon "me too" posting. That = had > struck me as well. I would remove the word "the", and slur the word = "great," > gently accenting the first of the two notes on "great." The meaning = remains > essentially the same. > > It's good to be picky about things that matter. > > Malcolm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net> > > Not to be picky, but I still have problems with the undue accent which > > the tune places on the word "the" in the second line of text... > > :-) > > >> Tune: Melita > > >> > > >> Lord, guard and guide all those who fly > > >> Though the great spaces in the sky. <snip>   __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Thanks for the Hymn. We Did Sing It. From: "Dennis Goward" <dlgoward@qwest.net> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:59:05 -0700   >Thanks James and Bud, and thank you to Pipechat and PipOrg-L for passing = on >this hymn, which was, perhaps, used by the churches served by some on = these >lists.   I'll add my thanks to that, too. We used it at Apostles in Peoria. It = was most appropriate and very moving.   Dennis Goward    
(back) Subject: Musical Change for Candlemas From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:00:21 -0500   Yes, I think "all" might be a better solution, avoiding the congregation's need to negotiate a slur.   Thanks for that,   Malcolm   ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Carter" <davidorganist2002@yahoo.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:48 PM Subject: Re: Musical Change for Candlemas     > How about the word 'all' in place of 'the'? > > --- Malcolm Wechsler <manderusa@earthlink.net> wrote: > > Yes, this is the perfect place for a frowned-upon "me too" posting. = That had > > struck me as well. I would remove the word "the", and slur the word "great," > > gently accenting the first of the two notes on "great." The meaning remains > > essentially the same. > > > > It's good to be picky about things that matter. > > > > Malcolm > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net> > > > Not to be picky, but I still have problems with the undue accent = which > > > the tune places on the word "the" in the second line of text... > > > :-) > > > >> Tune: Melita > > > >> > > > >> Lord, guard and guide all those who fly > > > >> Though the great spaces in the sky. > <snip>      
(back) Subject: RE: Weddings: right of first refusal put to the test From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:47:34 -0500   What about weddings that went onto the parish calendar before one was = hired?   At one position, the rector's own child was to get married in a few = months, and the rector had engaged an old friend friend of his to play (who = happened to be an outstanding organist and a friend of mine, too). He asked me very early on, perhaps even at the job interview, if that would be o.k. I said yes quite willingly and didn't even think about the bench fee-- there = wasn't much room to object, anyway-- and never received one. It didn't bother me much, but I wonder whether there is any standard practice in such matters, or whether the AGO recommends one.      
(back) Subject: RE: Weddings: right of first refusal put to the test From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:03:46 -0500   > I would like to see them done MUCH MORE like we did that one wedding for the two refugees ... involve the whole parish family, and have the whole affair ... service AND reception ... at the CHURCH.   So would I. Around here, weddings are often delayed for up to a year, = maybe more, simply because all wedding reception venues that meet the couple's *exacting* standards are already booked far in advance. I suppose until that time they just shack up.   > We are in a DISTINCT minority in holding that weddings are a RELIGIOUS occasion, and not "The Bride's Day" to show off how much money Daddy can spend, beg, borrow, or run up on his credit = cards.   My dad wasn't stingy with my sister's wedding, but fortunately no one = wanted it to be a posh affair. The reception was in the church basement. But he had once said that in his opinion *far* too much fuss is made over = weddings, and he wouldn't mind if either of us drove up to the house with our most significant other one afternoon, got out of the car, and announced, "Guess what? We got married!" (In may case, it has yet to happen...)          
(back) Subject: Re: A Sad Day From: "STRAIGHT" <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:39:22 -0500   Thank you from me too. I went down to practice late Sat. night, came home about 1, checked the email before I went to bed and found the words. Decided it wouldn't be a good idea to call the pastor at 1 a.m. Sun. morning I typed it over as a Word document, no email header = stuff, stuffed the printer full of paper and told it to work while I got dressed. Took it to church---can you believe, the pastor didn't know that = hymn?? I assured her the congregation did, very well, they didn't even need the music, and it's #2 in the hymnbook. But she didn't do anything with it. When it came to sharing time, = some of the congregation spoke about the accident, but the pastor just included it along with the kid whose dog died, etc.. Afterwards, I showed them to the choir director, and some of the choir members. Reaction was "Cool!! Where did you get this? This is great! = Why didn't we sing it?" This pastor is not too old, and basically a good one, but she doesn't seem "connected" to the community somehow. Another substitute coming next week, and the hymns are rather general, but I bet the choir will sing that piece.   Diane S.    
(back) Subject: Different pastors From: "STRAIGHT" <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:57:58 -0500   Sat. morning I was to play for a 7th Day Baptist Church, at 11. I heard the news about the space shuttle on the radio. When I got there, the pastor and others were just getting out of their Sunday School and standing around talking in the entry. I asked her to = come into her office, and told her the news, and that it had just happened. I was feeling upset, and her son is in the military, so we took a few minutes to compose ourselves and then went out and did our thing. I played prelude for awhile. They do announcements at the start, so she informed them about the accident. And she did address it well during the service. When they had their sharing time, those who had come in later added a little more info, and we prayed especially for the families and all concerned. I was rather surprised that my regular pastor on Sunday didn't = address people's concerns anywhere near as well as this lady did when presented = with a last-minute shock. Lots of differences in people, I guess.   Diane S.----Sunday I was disappointed, today I can stand back and find it interesting.    
(back) Subject: Re: A Scholarly List From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:55:10 -0600   At 11:14 PM -0500 02/02/03, Malcolm Wechsler wrote: [SNIP]   > It is sad >to report that at Pipechat's founding, there were some unhelpful comments >about stuffy old Pipe Organ List, and how people were glad to get away = from >its strictness. None of that came from David or Tim, the list owners, = who, I >believe, remain good members of PipOrg-L.   Malcolm   Just for the record neither Tim or I founded PipeChat. It was originally founded by Peter and Shirley. Through various events both of them moved on and I ended up as List Owner and asked Tim to be my Co-Administrator. And both of us do remain members in good standing of PIPORG-L. And both lists co-exist side by side and support each other!   >. This leads to >another important point made by someone today. There are some extremely >clever, possibly auto-didact members of PipOrg-L, without benefit of PhDs = or >perhaps any degrees. We even have one charming professional dilettante. = If >someone on this new magic list posts something of considerable scholarly >interest, no member of PipOrg-L, now considered unworthy to be sure, will >have the benefit of it, but even more significant is the fact that he or = she >who posts on this elite list will not have the benefit of the thinking of >some people full of wisdom but lacking the necessary credentials to = satisfy >the suffix-letters-lust of the new list. It's a great loss all around, = and >in the way it was presented, it is, simply put, a damned insult!   Malcolm, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! To me, the way this was presented was a slap to many of us that have been on these lists and have shared much information with each other over the years. I don't have the "degrees" necessary to belong to this "Scholarly List" and to tell you the truth I don't want and have never wanted those degrees!   Mr. Hall's new list, to me is one of the major problems with our field of interest. There are too many people in this profession that want to be so "elitist" and think they have all the answers. And many of those people over the last several decades have "pushed" the general public away. How many neo-baroque organs have been installed in churches at some organists whim so that they could play their elitist music. And how many of those organs are hated by the congregations that paid big money for that instrument? How many people have been driven away by these elitist academic organists from recitals since the playing was so boring but, in their mind, oh so "correct"? Too many I'm afraid.   Just an example from a couple of recitals I have recently attended. One was by an artist who has a doctorate and is a college professor, the other by one of our up-and-coming "rising star" organists. Both of them played the Bach Passacaglia and both of them played all the notes correctly, at least as far as I could tell. The professor's performance was maybe academically correct but it lacked any warmth and "fire". It didn't have any "sparkle" and by the time it was finished all I could think of is "Thank God that is over". To me it was dreadfully boring and i don't think I was the only one in the audience who thought that since it was the closing piece for the first half of the concert. The applause of the audience was just kind of lack-luster.   The earlier performance by the "rising-star" on the other hand was full of warmth, "fire" and drive. It was well registered showing off both the piece itself and the organ. It showed imagination on the part of the performer who was really communicating with his audience. It was the opening piece on the program and the audience went wild following the performance. Actually the recitalist kidded that "Well, with that we can all go home!" And he then went on to play a fabulous recital that had people going crazy at the end.   Which of those recitalists made "friends" for the organ? I'm sure the "rising star" did but i bet the professor didn't, actually there were a good number of people that left at the intermission probably bored to death.   Maybe these folks that want this "scholarly list" need to go off to a desert island where they can have a "perfect" society according to their principles while the rest of us "grove" around on PIPORG-L and PipeChat and live life to its fullest!   One other comment from me relating to another posting on the subject: At 8:13 AM -0500 02/03/03, Charles E. Brown wrote: > >I feel it is very bad form to openly solicit people on one list for >another list. Then, to compound the breach of etiquette, tell those same >people that they are not good enough to join.   As a list owner, I feel it is bad etiquette for a person to announce a new list on an established list without asking the permission of the list owner(s). When I established the Residence Organ List, before sending the announcement to the PIPORG-L list, I sent Ben and David a private note asking if it was OK to post the announcement which they replied was fine with them. Mr Hall didn't have the courtesy, at least with me and the PipeChat list, to ask if it was OK. I actually heard about the new list from one of my bosses during the middle of the work day.   Rant over!   David    
(back) Subject: RE: Comments on Candle-Mass, Feb 2 From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:16:42 -0500   Over the weekend I did get out William Mayne's novel _A Swarm in May_ and re-read it with delight.   It belongs in parish and choir libraries and (together with its companions _Cathedral Wednesday_ and _Chorister's Cake_) would make a fine gift for = any enthusiastic chorister or young organ student. There are many references = to the organ in it as well as life in a cathedral choir. Trevithic, the head chorister, is an avid beginning organist.   My memory of the story from reading it too long ago was hazy. The candles are presented to the bishop not on Candlemas, but sometime in the late spring. Some of the other details I mentioned were from a medieval tradition, not modern, although a couple of adventurous choirboys manage = to restore them by the end of the book.   Most interesting, I just learned that it was been filmed a couple years = ago for British TV.   (See: http://www.schorchsi.250x.com/00/0006/000606.htm)   Like the film of _The Choir_ by Trollope, we'll probably never be able to get it in this country, despite the current popularity of Hogwarts. This is a great pity, because choir school stories are far too rare, and in our culture kids who are serious about either the organ or singing in choirs need every encouragement. If anyone knows of a source, please alert me!   Paul      
(back) Subject: Re: That Mean Old Scholar Again From: "Teah" <teahzg@charter.net> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:52:30 -0600   Dr. Hall,   It is apparent that good manners, and just plain common sense were NOT a requisite of your Doctoral Program.... sad indeed. This is just plain rudeness.   Cheers,   Tim (who is academically and professionally qualified to join you new list, = but lacks the personality traits necessary to be meet your "standards" alas)   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan B. Hall" <jonathan@jonathanbhall.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 1:13 PM Subject: That Mean Old Scholar Again     > Continuing to bash the new organ list, the kindly Dr. Brown has this to > offer: > > > >This list assumes that a degree magically confers a certain knowledge > upon you. Anyone up to watching The Wizard of Oz? > > Charles > > Charles E. Brown > Author - Fireworks MX From Zero to Hero > Beginning Dreamweaver MX > Contributor - The Macromedia Studio MX Bible > > > > > --Yes, Dr. Brown, I'm very much up to watching the wizard of Oz, > especially the part where you set fire to the Scarecrow, and Dorothy > throws water on you. > > J > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003    
(back) Subject: Felix Hell in Berrien Springs, Michigan-- notes From: "Carol Scott" <dclscott@skyenet.net> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 23:06:45 -0500   I won't presume to attempt a 'review' of Felix's recital last Sunday, but I thought some of you might like to see the playlist, and I'll share some brief notes. I'm delighted to say that the attendance was wonderful; my personal 'guesstimate' is around 1000 people. The organ was a Casavant; sadly, the stoplist was not published in the program, nor have I been able to find it online.   Fantasy and Fugue in G Minor, BWV 542-- J.S. Bach   Schmucke dick, o liebe Seele, BWV 654-- J.S. Bach. Felix dedicated this to the astronauts, and requested silence afterwards.   Trio Sonata No. 1 in E-flat Major, BWV 545-- J.S. Bach. I especially enjoyed Felix's rather playful ornamentation, especially in the third movement.   Prelude and Fugue in D Major, BWV 532-- J.S. Bach. Felix played pedal passages faster than I think I could play with my fingers, with perfect accuracy, and was clearly having fun while he did it. Delightful!   Choral No. 3 in A Minor-- Franck. Wonderful use of strings and reeds.   "Abendfriede" from Op. 156--- Rheinberger. Disrupted a bit by an odd sympathetic vibration to the pedals, but a truly lovely piece.   Sonata No. 1 in F Minor, Op. 65-- Mendelssohn.   Toccata "Schlafes Bruder"-- Enjott Schneider   Adagio (Consolation)-- Liszt   Prelude and Fugue on B-A-C-H--- Liszt. Had to admire Felix's poise on this one-- he pressed a piston in preparation for a manual change, and clearly saw that something was WRONG. He tried several pistons while improvising a bit with one hand, and then moved on and hand-registered the next several changes. Hans confirmed in e-mail that apparently an entire level of piston memory was corrupted. I'm not sure I could register by hand that way on my own organ on a complex piece, much less on an organ I'd only played for a few hours!   Encores: the Finale of Sonata #6-- Mendelssohn; also dedicated to the astronauts   Vierne First (Symphony? Sonata?) Finale.   It was an impressive, passionate, delightful recital; I look forward to hearing Felix again later this year in Kalamazoo.   Carol Scott Stevensville, Michigan (no, not Pennsylvania!)        
(back) Subject: Felix Hell in Hartford From: "mack02445" <mack02445@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 23:23:22 -0500   Just a note to those who can reach Hartford Connecticut next Sunday. At 4:00 PM Felix will be giving a recital at South Congregational Church, 277 Main Street, Hartford CT.   There is an Aeolian-Skinner there restored by Thompson Allen.   Hope to see some of you there.   Cheers,   Mack    
(back) Subject: Re: Introducing The Scholarly Organist Group x-post From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 04:37:41 +0000 (GMT)   Hello,   I am no snob, but I am interested in Jonathan's new list. From what I know of Jonathan, he is no snob either!   There IS an advantage in talking to others at a level which is, perhaps, inappropriate in a general discussion list. Just as highly skilled organ builders can chat meaningfuly about wind systems and blower bearings whilst the rest of us have glazed eyes, organists may wish to pursue performance ideas or music which needs to be re-written so as to be playable.....such as Reger or Ducasse.   Of course, the problem with that sort of discussion is one of involvement. There will be specialists who may wish to discuss their favourite hobby-horse, whilst the rest just hang fire and wonder if they dare make comment or whether it is remotely interesting in the first place.   I hope Jonathan's list works, but I don't think it is fair to regard it as an eltist list before it starts!   I know exactly what Jonathan is aiming at, and the sort of exchanges to which he refers.   Good luck to him.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   mack02445 <mack02445@mindspring.com> wrote: > Well here I go again, boy oh boy another snob list. >   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: A Sad Day From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 05:00:46 +0000 (GMT)   Hello,   The Space Shuttle came as no surprise to me......the sheer hostility of the re-entry environment at 12,500mph takes material science to the very edge of knowledge.   The word "patriotism" disappoints me.......the Russians are involved in all this too. A great deal of the programme is international in nature.   The astronauts knew EXACTLY what the risks were, and like all adventurers, they balance probability of survival against risk factors.....to date, an impressive record.   As a young man I was adventurous to the point of being fool-hardy, but the sheer "rush" of doing something difficult, risky and potentially fatal is something which a small percentage of people enjoy.....like those crazy people who ski down high peaks at 75 degree angles and face death at every moment.   However, the mention of dependents, friends and shared feelings of guilt should, I would have thought, been appropriate to any church service. To varying degrees, there will be those who are shattered, hurt, confused, and feeling bad.....that demands a pastoral response surely?   A sad day!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- John Jarvis <jjarvis@attbi.com> wrote: > The church that I play for did not mention the Space > Shuttle at all. > Like David, I was bothered by this lack of > patriotism.   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com