PipeChat Digest #3460 - Friday, February 14, 2003
 
Interesting Site
  by "mack02445" <mack02445@mindspring.com>
Do I own stock in Rodgers
  by <Quentsmith@aol.com>
Re: IRC Sessions - Windows XP
  by "Adrianne Schutt" <maybe@pipcom.com>
Number of sound producing entities
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: what kind of chest to use
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: How does the Rodgers sound compared to an Allen
  by "Teah" <teahzg@charter.net>
 

(back) Subject: Interesting Site From: "mack02445" <mack02445@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:08:41 -0500   I receive via email a report each week on Friday of Educational web sites, called The Scout Report. This was one of the sites reviewed this week.   Cheers, Mack   5. Bach Digital http://www.bachdigital.org/   To say that Johann Sebastian Bach was a gifted and prodigious composer = would be like saying that Shakespeare merely wrote a few plays. This Web site is = a loving tribute to his work, undertaken by the main repositories of Bach's compositions, including the Bach-Archiv in Leipzig and the University of Leipzig. New visitors to the site will want to take the well-produced = guided tour that helps orient users to the wide variety of materials contained on the site. Perhaps one of the main highlights of the site is the original Bach autographs that have been digitized for public perusal. Autographs = are musical manuscripts that have been written by the composer himself, and in the case of Bach, offer intimate insight into the composition process. = Along with essays on the preservation of these important documents, viewers can view selected compositions, among them the "Prelude and Fugue in G Major" and the "Christmas Oratorio." Additionally, visitors can hear sound = samples and view photographs of musical instruments built during his lifetime, including a lute, the legendary organ from Hilbersdorf, and echo flutes. Overall, it's a fine tribute to Bach, and more broadly, musicology. [KMG]   Copyright Susan Calcari and the University of Wisconsin Board of Regents, 1994-2002. The Internet Scout Project (http://scout.wisc.edu/), located in the Computer Sciences Department of the University of Wisconsin-Madison, provides information about the Internet to the U.S. research and education community under a grant from the National Science Foundation, number NCR- 9712163. The Government has certain rights in this material. Permission is granted to make and distribute verbatim copies of the entire Scout Report provided this paragraph, including the copyright notice, are preserved on all copies.                     A          
(back) Subject: Do I own stock in Rodgers From: <Quentsmith@aol.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:36:09 EST   The answer is no. Karen and I spent a lot of time(and money) doing our research before purchasing a digital organ. We have owned a Rodgers organ since 1975 and after viewing what is out there (Allen, Johannus) we came = to the conclusion Rodgers was the best sounding organ and the most complete = for Karen's concert work. We were close friends of Ted Alan Worth and Karen studied under Richard Purvis for ove ten years. Ted sold Rodgers for years =   and Richard had several in his home. Richard would play our organ when he came to dinner in our home. I am a Senior PGA touring pro who does not = play the organ or piano, but I sure investigate things before spending a = sizeable amount of money on an organ. The category we were looking at would exceed $90,000.00 including sales tax so we look hard before making the = committment. Karen played on a Los Angeles Arts pipe organ at the church she was at for =   over 14 years, it was one serial number off from the Wanamaker organ. Jack =   Bethards of Schoenstein & Son was the caretaker of the organ. She knows = pipe organs too and this was our choice, the Rodgers 967 three manual. Quentin Smith  
(back) Subject: Re: IRC Sessions - Windows XP From: "Adrianne Schutt" <maybe@pipcom.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:55:33 -0500   At 08:17 AM 14/02/2003 -0500, Paul wrote: >Can anybody please tell me if IRC is Windows XP compatible? The literal answer: IRC (a generic term for a certain type of chat, ie IRC vs instant messaging) can be done with any version of = Windows.   The useful answer: mIRC (the program recommended for using IRC type chat in a Windows environment) is 100% friendly with XP (also 2k, ME, =   NT4, 98/SE and 95). For what it's worth, if you copy your c:\mirc\ directory onto the new machine's hard drive, the program will run just fine. It doesn't hide chunks of itself in strange places like larger programs tend to.   If you'd rather go with a clean copy, the installation instructions are the same all the way across the board. Essentially: download from www.mirc.com , doubleclick to install, =   click "ok" several times (the default installation options work well), and =   voila...a shortcut appears in your start menu and/or on your desktop (if you asked for it during install). If you need help setting up the blank new copy, see the tutorial I wrote for David a while back. http://www.pipechat.org/mirc.html   People still clinging to dinosaurs running Windows 3.1 will be = out of luck with the new release of mIRC, which no longer supports 16bit.   Have fun! Ad ;->    
(back) Subject: Number of sound producing entities From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:13:46 EST   In the pipe versus other types debate, consider then number of sound sources, and how they move the air around the listener. And yes, whenever anybody listens to a CD of the finest pipe organ on = the best audio system, they are not under the delusion that they are really listening to that organ. The salesman in the stereo showroom doesn't try = to feed them that line either.  
(back) Subject: Re: what kind of chest to use From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:27:14 EST   Almost all builders I know prefer their reeds on either = electropneumatic windchests or slider and pallet soundboards. The former, as has been = stated, involves rapid movement, exceptional repetition, vertical travel, no = bounce, and stable, quack-less tone from attack to release. If you are unsure of your valve sizes or design, either commission the =   chest from a supplier whose engineers will determine your needs, or if you =   are adventurous (and shop time permits) disassemble and copy a similar = chest in an instrument you maintain.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City  
(back) Subject: Re: How does the Rodgers sound compared to an Allen From: "Teah" <teahzg@charter.net> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:21:31 -0600   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_004F_01C2D455.E5F45960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Good advice Gary. Buying a digital organ is a major investment and =3D should be very carefully considered. We spent nearly 2 years =3D researching, listening, and playing the various brands and models that =3D fit our budget. Ultimately, here's what we found(our opinion only): =3D Rodgers ... great sound, very expensive! Allen ... very expensive, =3D sound like wading through a mud hole, pressure to buy. Johannus ... =3D nice sound, extremely high pressure sales tactics from the local dealer. = =3D Galanti ... nice, but not impressed with the build. Eminent ... nice =3D organ! Cantor ... top notch build, by far the best sound quality. =3D20   In the end, we chose Cantor to build a truly fine custom organ for our =3D home at a price we could afford. The first installed in the USA. And =3D no, I am not a representative of any digital organ company.   Cheers,   Tim ----- Original Message -----=3D20 From: G. Deboer=3D20 To: PipeChat=3D20 Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 11:50 AM Subject: Re: How does the Rodgers sound compared to an Allen     As is usually the case, all the words used between everybody in this =3D group does nothing to actually describe what a particular brand sounds =3D like. The best thing a potential buyer can do is: Don't listen to anybody =3D telling you this organ or that organ, as a smart buyer go out and LISTEN = =3D with your own ears what sounds best to you. Reputable dealers will have = =3D several organs in their showrooms or other installations for you to play = =3D or listen to. Also do not make the assumption that just because a few brands have a = =3D certain perceived reputation about quality or have been around longer =3D than others that they make superior instruments. You will discover that = =3D the opposite may be true. Check out the manufacturers websites, read between the lines, =3D eliminate all the technical jargon since it doesn't mean much, make a =3D list of organs you like to see, then make appointments with the dealers = =3D and spend at least 2 hours with each organ. As always, buyer beware, and your own ears and purse should make the =3D decision. Don't buy anything until you have at least heard 4 different brands.   Gary   ----- Original Message -----=3D20 From: TRAVIS EVANS=3D20 To: PipeChat=3D20 Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 12:00 PM Subject: Re: How does the Rodgers sound compared to an Allen     I am usually not one to jump into the very OLD, and WORN OUT =3D discussion of pipe v. digital and Digital Brand A against Digital Brand = =3D B. However, I do feel compelled for some strange reason to respond to =3D the following.=3D20   Quentsmith@aol.com wrote:=3D20   <<To the questioner: How does it compare to an Allen? The Rodgers = =3D is far=3D20 superior to the Allen organ in replay of the sampled sounds, in =3D the=3D20 reproduction of pipe organ phenonomana and the integration with =3D actual pipes. >>     As with ANYTHING in this world, preferences are unique to each and = =3D every individual. Saying one item is superior to another is subjective. = =3D Especially when it comes to sound. There is not one thing that two =3D people see, hear, feel the same, it is impossible as no two people are =3D alike. Therefore we have slight prejudices against that which we do not = =3D like as well. Organs not being exempt from that.   <<3. The Allen does=3D20 not use sampled digital sounds underneath the pipe stops, they =3D only play=3D20 pipes. The Rodgers will play digital sampled sounds along and =3D under the=3D20 pipes, the tuning is adjustable to meet the tuning of the pipes =3D that day,=3D20 they always change. By having a sampled stop underneath the pipe =3D stop is an=3D20 advantage two ways. One is if the rank goes for some reason, you =3D can have it=3D20 reproduced without the loss of the rank, you just play the digital =3D stop.=3D20 Also, if you want to do concerts outside of the hall or church, =3D you can play=3D20 the organ with all digital stops, moving the console to the site =3D to be=3D20 played. It can then be hooked up to the pipes again upon return.>>   One should always exhaust all possible information sources before = =3D proceeding to make statement. Which it may very well be that some =3D installations do not have the digital stops playing along with the pipes = =3D on SOME Allen pipe/digital combos, it is not the rule. An available =3D option on the Allen is to have 1) Only Digital Stops 2) Pipes in =3D addition to the Digital stops or 3) have the digital stops that have a =3D corresponding real Pipe rank to be replaced completely by the Pipes. =3D Personally I can not see the hassle of removing an entire installation =3D for ONE concert. Because it involves more than just moving the Console.   << Rodgers also has the=3D20 RSS reverb system that plays in quadraphonic sound and is =3D adjustable to 64=3D20 different combinations. The Rodgers goes from small room and wood = =3D walls to=3D20 cathedral and marble walls, giving a reverb of 10 seconds or more, = =3D the Allen=3D20 has less combinations. Rodgers also uses this with pipes. In a =3D dead room a=3D20 digital organ or a pipe organ has no natural reverberation. Now =3D digital=3D20 organs have the reverb built in , but Rodgers takes it one step =3D further with=3D20 their pipe/digital combination. Normally the pipes in a dead room = =3D would not=3D20 reverberate but the digital pipe sounds would, setting off a =3D distortion when=3D20 both are played together. Now Rodgers puts omni-directional mikes = =3D in the=3D20 pipe chambers at selected points, merges this sound with the =3D digital sounds=3D20 and all the organ sounds now come out in quadraphonic reverb =3D stereo.>>   In my opinion, and which is only opinion, not to be construed to =3D be a universally accepted view. The digital reverb is a waste. What =3D good is having the organ sound like its in a cathedral when the =3D congregation stops singing their voices to not continue to reverberate, = =3D or in any instrumentalists are playing their sound will not either. I =3D feel that this creates more of a "distortion" than allowing the natural = =3D acoustics of the room to do its 'thing' no matter how good or bad that =3D may be. As might possibly be agreed the room is one of the determining = =3D factors of the success/demise of an instrument.   <<We really love our new Rodgers and we listened to the Allen =3D before making our choice. I would recommend to those that have a =3D dealership of Rodgers or Allen nearby, to go there and listen as the =3D technology for both companies has jumped tremendously in the last two or = =3D three years. You will be surprised, I am sure about how the new digital = =3D organs sound. Not every church or home can afford or have the room for a = =3D pipe organ, though one is ideal, the next best is a digitally sampled =3D pipe sound.=3D20   Quentin Smith>>   I am glad that you are happy with your instrument. However as =3D stated above "go there and listen to the technology for BOTH companies." = =3D Make a decision based on what will best fit the needs of the =3D congregation no matter who the builder is. If we all liked the same =3D thing there wouldn't be the wide variety of builders.   Travis Evans     --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.454 / Virus Database: 253 - Release Date: 2/10/2003   ------=3D_NextPart_000_004F_01C2D455.E5F45960 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1141" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Good&nbsp;advice Gary.&nbsp; Buying a = =3D digital organ=3D20 is a major investment and should be very carefully considered.&nbsp; We = =3D spent=3D20 nearly 2 years researching, listening, and playing the various brands =3D and models=3D20 that fit our budget.&nbsp; Ultimately, here's what we found(our = opinion=3D20 only):&nbsp; Rodgers ... great sound, very expensive!&nbsp; Allen ... =3D very=3D20 expensive, sound like wading through a mud hole, pressure to buy.&nbsp; = =3D Johannus=3D20 .... nice sound, extremely high pressure sales tactics&nbsp;from the =3D local=3D20 dealer.&nbsp; Galanti ... nice, but not impressed with the build.&nbsp; = =3D Eminent=3D20 .... nice organ!&nbsp; Cantor ... top notch build, by far the best = sound=3D20 quality.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>In the end, we chose Cantor to build = a =3D truly fine=3D20 custom organ for&nbsp;our home&nbsp;at a price we could afford.&nbsp; =3D The first=3D20 installed in&nbsp;the USA.&nbsp; And no, I am not a representative of =3D any=3D20 digital organ company.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Cheers,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Tim</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3D3Dltr=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=3D20 style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =3D black"><B>From:</B>=3D20 <A title=3D3Dgdeboer@bluemarble.net =3D href=3D3D"mailto:gdeboer@bluemarble.net">G.=3D20 Deboer</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =3D title=3D3Dpipechat@pipechat.org=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org">PipeChat</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 14, 2003 = =3D 11:50=3D20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: How does the =3D Rodgers sound=3D20 compared to an Allen</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>As is usually the case, all the = words =3D used=3D20 between everybody in this group does nothing to actually describe what = =3D a=3D20 particular brand sounds like.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>The best thing a potential buyer = can =3D do is: Don't=3D20 listen to anybody telling you this organ or that organ, as a smart =3D buyer go=3D20 out and LISTEN with your own ears what sounds best to you.&nbsp; =3D Reputable=3D20 dealers will have several organs in their showrooms or other =3D installations for=3D20 you to play or listen to.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Also do not make the assumption = that =3D just because=3D20 a few brands have a certain perceived reputation about quality&nbsp;or = =3D have=3D20 been around longer than others that they make superior =3D instruments.&nbsp; You=3D20 will discover that the opposite may be true.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Check out the =3D manufacturers&nbsp;websites, read=3D20 between the lines, eliminate all the technical jargon since =3D it&nbsp;doesn't=3D20 mean much, make a list of organs you like to see, then make =3D appointments with=3D20 the dealers and spend at least 2 hours with each organ.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>As always, buyer beware, and your = own =3D ears and=3D20 purse should make the decision.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Don't buy anything until you have = at =3D least heard=3D20 4 different brands.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Gary</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3D3Dltr=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=3D20 style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =3D black"><B>From:</B>=3D20 <A title=3D3Dtevansmo@prodigy.net =3D href=3D3D"mailto:tevansmo@prodigy.net">TRAVIS=3D20 EVANS</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =3D title=3D3Dpipechat@pipechat.org=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org">PipeChat</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 14, = =3D 2003 12:00=3D20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: How does the =3D Rodgers sound=3D20 compared to an Allen</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <P>I am usually not one to jump into the very OLD, and WORN OUT =3D discussion=3D20 of pipe v. digital and Digital Brand A against Digital Brand =3D B.&nbsp;=3D20 However, I do feel compelled for some strange reason to respond to =3D the=3D20 following.=3D20 <P>&nbsp;<B><I><A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:Quentsmith@aol.com">Quentsmith@aol.com</A></I></B> = =3D wrote:=3D20 <BLOCKQUOTE=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff = =3D 2px solid"> <P>&lt;&lt;To the questioner: How does it compare to an Allen? The = =3D Rodgers=3D20 is far <BR>superior to the Allen organ in replay of the sampled =3D sounds, in=3D20 the <BR>reproduction of pipe organ phenonomana and the integration = =3D with=3D20 actual pipes. &gt;&gt;<BR></P> <P>As with ANYTHING in this world, preferences are unique to each = =3D and=3D20 every individual.&nbsp; Saying one item is superior to another = is=3D20 subjective.&nbsp; Especially when it comes to sound.&nbsp; There =3D is not=3D20 one thing that two people see, hear, feel the same, it is =3D impossible as no=3D20 two people are alike.&nbsp; Therefore we have slight prejudices =3D against=3D20 that which we do not like as well.&nbsp; Organs not being exempt =3D from=3D20 that.</P> <P>&lt;&lt;3. The Allen does <BR>not use sampled digital sounds =3D underneath=3D20 the pipe stops, they only play <BR>pipes. The Rodgers will play =3D digital=3D20 sampled sounds along and under the <BR>pipes, the tuning is =3D adjustable to=3D20 meet the tuning of the pipes that day, <BR>they always change. By = =3D having a=3D20 sampled stop underneath the pipe stop is an <BR>advantage two =3D ways. One is=3D20 if the rank goes for some reason, you can have it <BR>reproduced =3D without=3D20 the loss of the rank, you just play the digital stop. <BR>Also, if = =3D you=3D20 want to do concerts outside of the hall or church, you can play =3D <BR>the=3D20 organ with all digital stops, moving the console to the site to be = =3D   <BR>played. It can then be hooked up to the pipes again upon=3D20 return.&gt;&gt;</P> <P>One should always exhaust all possible information sources =3D before=3D20 proceeding to make statement.&nbsp; Which it may very well be that = =3D some=3D20 installations do not have the digital stops playing along with the = =3D pipes=3D20 on SOME Allen pipe/digital combos, it is not the rule.&nbsp; An =3D available=3D20 option on the Allen is to have 1) Only Digital Stops 2) Pipes in =3D addition=3D20 to the Digital stops or 3) have the digital stops that have a=3D20 corresponding real Pipe rank to be replaced completely by the =3D Pipes.&nbsp;=3D20 Personally I can not see the hassle of removing an entire =3D installation for=3D20 ONE concert.&nbsp; Because it involves more than just moving = the=3D20 Console.</P> <P>&lt;&lt;&nbsp;Rodgers also has the <BR>RSS reverb system that =3D plays in=3D20 quadraphonic sound and is adjustable to 64 <BR>different =3D combinations. The=3D20 Rodgers goes from small room and wood walls to <BR>cathedral and =3D marble=3D20 walls, giving a reverb of 10 seconds or more, the Allen <BR>has =3D less=3D20 combinations. Rodgers also uses this with pipes. In a dead room = a=3D20 <BR>digital organ or a pipe organ has no natural reverberation. =3D Now=3D20 digital <BR>organs have the reverb built in , but Rodgers takes it =3D one=3D20 step further with <BR>their pipe/digital combination. Normally the = =3D pipes=3D20 in a dead room would not <BR>reverberate but the digital pipe =3D sounds=3D20 would, setting off a distortion when <BR>both are played together. = =3D Now=3D20 Rodgers puts omni-directional mikes in the <BR>pipe chambers at =3D selected=3D20 points, merges this sound with the digital sounds <BR>and all the = =3D organ=3D20 sounds now come out in quadraphonic reverb stereo.&gt;&gt;</P> <P>In my opinion, and which is only opinion, not to be construed =3D to be a=3D20 universally accepted view.&nbsp; The digital reverb is a =3D waste.&nbsp; What=3D20 good is having the organ sound like its in a cathedral when the=3D20 congregation stops singing their voices to not continue to =3D reverberate, or=3D20 in any instrumentalists are playing their sound will not either. I = =3D feel=3D20 that this creates more of a "distortion" than allowing the natural = =3D   acoustics of the room to do its 'thing' no matter how good or bad = =3D that may=3D20 be.&nbsp; As might possibly be agreed the room is one of the =3D determining=3D20 factors of the success/demise of an instrument.</P> <P>&nbsp;&lt;&lt;We really love our new Rodgers and we listened to = =3D the=3D20 Allen before making our choice. I would recommend to those that =3D have a=3D20 dealership of Rodgers or Allen nearby, to go there and listen as =3D the=3D20 technology for both companies has jumped tremendously in the last = =3D two or=3D20 three years. You will be surprised, I am sure about how the new =3D digital=3D20 organs sound. Not every church or home can afford or have the room = =3D for a=3D20 pipe organ, though one is ideal, the next best is a digitally =3D sampled pipe=3D20 sound. </P> <P>Quentin Smith&gt;&gt;</P> <P>I am glad that you are happy with your instrument.&nbsp; =3D However as=3D20 stated above "go there and listen to the technology for BOTH=3D20 companies."&nbsp; Make a decision based on what will best fit the = =3D needs of=3D20 the congregation no matter who the builder is.&nbsp; If we all =3D liked the=3D20 same thing there wouldn't be the wide variety of builders.</P> <P>Travis Evans</P> <P><BR>---<BR>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.<BR>Checked by = =3D AVG=3D20 anti-virus system (<A=3D20 =3D href=3D3D"http://www.grisoft.com">http://www.grisoft.com</A>).<BR>Version: = =3D   6.0.454 / Virus Database: 253 - Release Date:=3D20 2/10/2003</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_004F_01C2D455.E5F45960--