PipeChat Digest #3464 - Saturday, February 15, 2003
 
Re: Martin Baker was Steering away from the digital discussion.
  by "Hugh Drogemuller" <hdrogemuller@sympatico.ca>
non-Wood Music rack
  by "Hugh Drogemuller" <hdrogemuller@sympatico.ca>
Re: what kind of chest to use
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
Re: non-Wood Music rack
  by "jon bertschinger" <jonberts@magiccablepc.com>
Re: The Bennett System
  by "jon bertschinger" <jonberts@magiccablepc.com>
Civilized discussions - the digital vs. pipe controversy continues
  by "Antoni Scott" <ascott@ptd.net>
Re: non-Wood Music rack
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: The Bennett System & Music Rack solution
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
DARN!
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Martin Baker was Steering away from the digital discussion. From: "Hugh Drogemuller" <hdrogemuller@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 05:16:21 -0500   At 12:17 AM 15/02/2003 -0500, Pepehomer@aol.com wrote:     >Does anyone have any contact information (preferably e-mail) for Martin >Baker .   Go to http://www.westminstercathedral.org.uk.   HD      
(back) Subject: non-Wood Music rack From: "Hugh Drogemuller" <hdrogemuller@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 05:25:29 -0500     Is there a quite specific glass or acrylic material used for this purpose =   ? If so what is it.   Thanks   HD    
(back) Subject: Re: what kind of chest to use From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 07:38:42 EST     --part1_1e3.21c24ba.2b7f8ed2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 2/13/2003 11:50:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, gblack@ocslink.com writes:     > > HI list, What kind of a chest should be used for a 16' fagotto, > electro-pneumatic or electro-mechanical and why? Thanks, Gary > > >   Depending on what wind pressure and the toe-hole diameters, either style = may work, tho there are considerations for both action types. Chest = construction for electro-magnetic chest actions are fairly straight forward to = construct, whereas electro-pneumatic chests are bit more labor intensive. The attack =   characteristics of the two types of chest ction differ slightly (the d-e tends to have a slightly more "explosive" initial puff of wind, and the pallets can 'bounce' on the toebords when the note is released if they are =   not sized correctly.)   If there is a chest that already exists for this set of pipes, your best choice is to use that chest, even if it needs to be rebuilt. Remember, it isn't just the "box" of the chest, but you will also need to provide the racking necessary to properly support the resonators.   Rick in VA     --part1_1e3.21c24ba.2b7f8ed2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>In a message dated = 2/13/2=3D 003 11:50:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, gblack@ocslink.com writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D3DCITE style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-=3D LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> <BR>HI list, &nbsp;What kind of a chest should be used for a 16' fagotto, = el=3D ectro-pneumatic or electro-mechanical and why? &nbsp;Thanks, = &nbsp;Gary</FON=3D T><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D3 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D3D"Arial" LANG=3D =3D3D"0"> <BR></XMP></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#0f0f0f" SIZE=3D3D3 = FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D =3D3D"Arial" LANG=3D3D"0"> <BR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D2 = FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" FAC=3D E=3D3D"Arial" LANG=3D3D"0"> <BR>Depending on what wind pressure and the toe-hole diameters, either = style=3D may work, tho there are considerations for both action types. Chest = constru=3D ction for electro-magnetic chest actions are fairly straight forward to = cons=3D truct, whereas electro-pneumatic chests are &nbsp;bit more labor = intensive.=3D20=3D The attack characteristics of the two types of chest ction differ slightly = (=3D the d-e tends to have a slightly more "explosive" initial puff of wind, = and=3D20=3D the pallets can 'bounce' on the toebords when the note is released if they = a=3D re not sized correctly.) <BR> <BR>If there is a chest that already exists for this set of pipes, your = best=3D choice is to use that chest, even if it needs to be rebuilt. Remember, it = i=3D sn't just the "box" of the chest, but you will also need to provide the = rack=3D ing necessary to properly support the resonators. <BR> <BR>Rick in VA <BR></FONT></HTML>   --part1_1e3.21c24ba.2b7f8ed2_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: non-Wood Music rack From: "jon bertschinger" <jonberts@magiccablepc.com> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 06:59:14 -0600   We have auto plate safety glass cut for us...always in a wood frame for either stationary or folding music racks. Only one time that we've had problems was at a church where they insisted on having no frame around it. As result glass cracked at screw holes. They've had to replace it twice I believe....once they came crying to us about it, and we reviewed their correspondence to us about the music rack....specifically stating that there could be no frame around the glass (meaning at the ends and bottom), as they didn't want anything to block the line of sight. Before it's all over, we may have to build a new rack with a frame....standard to our instruments.     Jon Bertschinger Temple Organs  
(back) Subject: Re: The Bennett System From: "jon bertschinger" <jonberts@magiccablepc.com> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 07:11:01 -0600   Richard: How many new book cases were you able to build with the old chest lumber? LOL...and what are you asking for the console. Would it look good in my living room?   an inquiring mind...   Jon  
(back) Subject: Civilized discussions - the digital vs. pipe controversy continues From: "Antoni Scott" <ascott@ptd.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 09:03:35 -0500   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_002F_01C2D4D1.1F4A1F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   All:   I love a good discussion but not when it resorts to insults. The =3D previous e-mails were helpful when they moved the discussion forward. =3D Insults are not constructive. I don't feel it is necessary NOT to =3D mention brand names. In fact, it is helpful.   My experience playing a large combination pipe (30-40 ranks), digital =3D (60-70 equivalent ranks) allowed me to compare real pipes with digital . = =3D The Allan digital was pre-Renaissance technology, so is not quite fair =3D since the new stuff is better. I had an opportunity to play a real =3D Diapason and compare it to a digital Diapason. The smaller combination =3D real / digital organs would not "duplicate" a real Diapason for a =3D digital Diapason since it would be redundant. Bigger combination organs = =3D would duplicate them (i.e. Diapason I, Diapason II, Diapason III). One =3D of those three was a real set of pipes.=3D20   I played a smaller (24 ranks of real pipes, 25 equivalent digital =3D ranks). The technology was Renaissance so a comparison meant more. Some = =3D stops were authentic, and surprisingly, the solo reeds were not =3D aurthentic). Apparently, Allen STILL neglects to take into account the =3D variables in speech attack of each note as you ascend the scale of a =3D rank as is so commonly apparent in real reeds. Too bad. Although the =3D ensemble benefited from the digital additions, digital stop by stop =3D analysis revealed shortcomings. This is a tough comparison, since the =3D real pipes are right next to you for A/B comparison. Had I heard the =3D digital on its own (i.e. the ENTIRE specification digital and not pipes) = =3D I may have come to a slightly different conclusion. I suppose its like =3D trying imitation butter one day, and real butter the next. If you try =3D imitation butter and real butter, back to back, you might be more easily = =3D able to tell the difference. The digital Mixtures did not have the =3D brilliance of the real Mixture, but once again it was a DIFFERENT =3D Mixture, so that makes comparison difficult. The "add a voice" option on = =3D the right hand side pull out drawer had some Mixtures on it. I added a =3D Mixture, increased its volume and threw it out of tune a bit, added it =3D to the real pipe Mixture plus the digital pipe Mixture and it improved =3D the ensemble.   I discussed this exact point with an Allen technical rep. who took the =3D opportunity to tell me that he had created four "out of tune" versions =3D on the same organ and asked organists to compare all four out of tune =3D versions with the dead in tune (and in my opinion - sterile sound) =3D standard version. Guess which one they chose ?   I was asked to attend a "organ crawl" in which several combination =3D digital / pipe organs were demonstrated. In some instances I was =3D impressed (an early 30's - 40's vintage Moller with digital additions) , = =3D the differences were slight.=3D20   The all digital organ, no matter how they come up with a sound (sampled, = =3D synthesized or whatever), must have the same speech characteristics as a = =3D real pipe organ. I am not an engineer, I am unimpressed the 16 bit, 24 =3D bit, 32 bit technology terms ,but I have a pair of ears. The bottom line = =3D is - how it sounds. I don't care how they do it.=3D20   Another interesting point I heard discussed was that to be cautious =3D about listening to a digital organ on a CD if you were going to use that = =3D as a determining factor in purchasing an organ because the recording =3D process may somehow affect the ability to distinguish between a real =3D pipe and a digital. My experience is that even with the poorest =3D recording, it is still possible to tell the difference between a real =3D pipe organ and a digital. I have demo CD's from A/G, Allen, Walker, =3D Copeman-Hart, Rogers, Eminent and Cantor. By listening to the CD, I must = =3D in all honesty say that the Eminent and Cantor sound more like a real =3D pipe organ. The Mixtures were brilliant, something I have NOT heard on =3D other digital organs (in fact I was coming to the conclusion that it was = =3D not possible to create brilliant Mixtures, digitally).=3D20   When I listen to an artist such as Marie-Claire Alain or Carlo Curley I = =3D can usually tell if the organ they are playing on in a real pipe or a =3D digital. Since I have NEVER hear Alain play a digital organ that leaves = =3D Curley, who frequently records on an Allen. Whatever, the point is that = =3D I can tell the difference between a digital organ and a pipe organ just = =3D by listening to it over my stereo system. There is definitely something = =3D missing in a digital organ that can be heard, even over a stereo system.     Antoni Scott   ------=3D_NextPart_000_002F_01C2D4D1.1F4A1F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4>All:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4>I love a good discussion but not when it resorts to = =3D insults.=3D20 The previous e-mails were helpful when they moved the discussion =3D forward.=3D20 Insults are not constructive. I don't feel it is necessary NOT to =3D mention brand=3D20 names. In fact, it is helpful.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4>My experience playing a large combination pipe =3D (30-40 ranks),=3D20 digital (60-70 equivalent ranks) allowed me to compare real pipes with =3D digital .=3D20 The Allan digital was pre-Renaissance technology, so is not quite fair =3D since the=3D20 new stuff is better. I had an opportunity to play a real Diapason and =3D compare it=3D20 to a digital Diapason. The smaller combination real / digital organs =3D would not=3D20 "duplicate" a real Diapason for a digital Diapason since it would be =3D redundant.=3D20 Bigger combination organs would duplicate them (i.e. Diapason I, =3D Diapason II,=3D20 Diapason III). One of those three was a real set of pipes. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4>I played a smaller (24 ranks of real pipes, 25=3D20 equivalent&nbsp;digital ranks). The technology was Renaissance so a =3D comparison=3D20 meant more. Some stops were authentic, and surprisingly, the solo reeds = =3D were not=3D20 aurthentic). Apparently, Allen STILL neglects to take into account the =3D variables=3D20 in speech attack of each note as you ascend the scale of a rank as is so = =3D   commonly apparent in real reeds. Too bad. Although the ensemble =3D benefited from=3D20 the digital additions, digital stop by stop analysis revealed =3D shortcomings. This=3D20 is a tough comparison, since the real pipes are right next to you for =3D A/B=3D20 comparison. Had I heard the digital on its own (i.e. the ENTIRE =3D specification=3D20 digital and not pipes) I may have come to a slightly different =3D conclusion. I=3D20 suppose its like trying imitation butter one day, and real butter the =3D next. If=3D20 you try imitation butter and real butter, back to back, you might be =3D more easily=3D20 able to tell the difference. The digital Mixtures did not have the =3D brilliance of=3D20 the real Mixture, but once again it was a DIFFERENT Mixture, so that =3D makes=3D20 comparison difficult. The "add a voice" option on the right hand side =3D pull out=3D20 drawer had some Mixtures on it. I added a Mixture, increased its volume = =3D and=3D20 threw it out of tune a bit, added it to the real pipe Mixture plus the =3D digital=3D20 pipe Mixture and it improved the ensemble.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4>I discussed this exact point with an Allen technical = =3D rep. who=3D20 took the opportunity to tell me that he had created four "out of tune" =3D versions=3D20 on the same organ and asked&nbsp;organists to compare all four&nbsp; out = =3D of tune=3D20 versions with the dead in tune (and in my opinion - sterile sound) =3D standard=3D20 version. Guess which one they chose ?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4>I was asked to attend a "organ crawl" in which =3D several=3D20 combination digital / pipe organs were demonstrated. In some instances I = =3D was=3D20 impressed (an early 30's - 40's vintage Moller with digital additions) , = =3D the=3D20 differences were slight. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4>The all digital organ, no matter how they come up = =3D with a sound=3D20 (sampled, synthesized or whatever), must have the same speech =3D characteristics as=3D20 a real pipe organ. I am not an engineer, I am unimpressed the 16 bit, 24 = =3D bit, 32=3D20 bit technology terms ,but I have a pair of ears. The bottom line is - =3D how it=3D20 sounds. I don't care how they do it. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4>Another interesting point I heard discussed was that = =3D to be=3D20 cautious about listening to a digital organ on a CD if you were going to = =3D use=3D20 that as a determining factor in purchasing an organ because&nbsp;the =3D recording=3D20 process may somehow affect the ability to distinguish between a real =3D pipe and a=3D20 digital. My experience is that even with the poorest recording, it is =3D still=3D20 possible to tell the difference between a real pipe organ and a digital. = =3D I have=3D20 demo CD's from A/G, Allen, Walker, Copeman-Hart, Rogers, Eminent and =3D Cantor. By=3D20 listening to the CD, I must in all honesty say that the Eminent and =3D Cantor sound=3D20 more like a real pipe organ. The Mixtures were brilliant, something I =3D have NOT=3D20 heard on other digital organs (in fact I was coming to the conclusion =3D that it=3D20 was not possible to create brilliant Mixtures, digitally). </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4>When I listen to an artist such as Marie-Claire =3D Alain or Carlo=3D20 Curley I can usually tell if the organ they are playing on in a real =3D pipe or a=3D20 digital. Since I have NEVER hear Alain play a digital organ that leaves = =3D Curley,=3D20 who frequently records on an Allen. Whatever, the point is that I can =3D tell the=3D20 difference between a digital organ and a pipe organ just by listening to = =3D it over=3D20 my stereo system. There is definitely something missing in a digital =3D organ that=3D20 can be heard, even over a stereo system.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D4>Antoni Scott</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_002F_01C2D4D1.1F4A1F80--    
(back) Subject: Re: non-Wood Music rack From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 08:27:18 -0600   Hugh Drogemuller wrote: > Is there a quite specific glass or acrylic material used for this = purpose > ? If so what is it.   We use 1/2" thick clear Polycarbonate. It's strong and unbreakable.   Faithfully,   G.A. -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL mailto:arp@starband.net SHOP SATELLITE EMAIL mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME OFFICE EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL    
(back) Subject: Re: The Bennett System & Music Rack solution From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 08:32:59 -0600   jon bertschinger wrote: > Richard: How many new book cases were you able to build with the > old chest lumber? LOL...   Not as many as you think. WE still have several of them in the warehouse. They clean up and can be re-built very nicely. The ones that got soaked got cut up for FIREWOOD! Long since burned-up!   > and what are you asking for the console. Would it look good in my > = living room?   I've LOVE $2,500.00 But give me an offer I can't refuse. > an inquiring mind...   And a possible solution for your Music Rack dilemma: Why don't you go get a piece of 1/2" Thick Clear Polycarbonate? it's easy to machine, strong and won't crack. And you won't need a frame for it, either.   Good Luck on that problem!   Heading out Monday (weather permitting!) for Arizona. Son Dan graduates from Police Academy, then on to California for organ work.   I hear you stopped and saw Keith Zimmerman on your way back from Florida.   Best,   Rich -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL mailto:arp@starband.net SHOP SATELLITE EMAIL mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME OFFICE EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL    
(back) Subject: DARN! From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 08:40:09 -0600   Sorry list.   The message for Jon Bertshinger was meant to be private!   THat's what I get for trying to write something intelligent before I've had my Coff-aay!   Faithfully,   Rich   -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL mailto:arp@starband.net SHOP SATELLITE EMAIL mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME OFFICE EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL