PipeChat Digest #3465 - Saturday, February 15, 2003
 
Re: How does the Rodgers sound compared to an Allen
  by "Stephen Best" <sbest@borg.com>
Combination instruments and Wicks
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Bennett Console
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: How does the Rodgers sound compared to an Allen From: "Stephen Best" <sbest@borg.com> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 09:48:21 -0500     --------------080806080404050006020003 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii; format=3Dflowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Somehow you've gotten subscribed to Pipe Chat. If you don't want it -- just go to   http://www.pipechat.org   and take your name/address off the subscription list.   Steve Best in Utica, NY   AUBREY STEM wrote:   > I love organs but I do not know how I am getting all these emails can > someone help answer this question?????? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Teah > Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 12:46 AM > To: PipeChat > Subject: Re: How does the Rodgers sound compared to an Allen > > Gary, > > Of late, several List Members have asked for information AND > opinions of various "brands" of digital organs, Cantor and Phoenix > specifically. Members who replied to these posts have shared good > information and informed opinions on the subject. I suppose all > of us who have participated in this thread are from your point of > view "nonsensical and irrelevant". > > Who are you to determine what is or is not an appropriate thread > for this Forum, or to deem certain opinions irrelevant? That to > me is the height of arrogance. If one doesn't approve the subject > of a thread, there is always the delete key. > > I have no desire to promote any brand of organ over another, and I > don't think I have done so. I simply answered specific questions > about the brand of organ that I own. I have no affiliation or > interest in any organ company. My interest is in organs, whether > Pipes or Digital. No particular "brand" or type. They each have > there place within the musical community. > > I must thank you for the put down in such a public place. It's > good to know that Gary Deboer is so eminently qualified to > determine what is or is not relevant to the discussion. Get over > yourself. > > Tim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: G. Deboer <mailto:gdeboer@bluemarble.net> > To: PipeChat <mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 10:49 PM > Subject: Re: How does the Rodgers sound compared to an Allen > > I have not promoted, not even mentioned any particular brand > name. > I have not seen nor heard a Cantor and have never formed an > opinion of one. > People have selected other brands of organs for exactly the > same reasons you are giving to your name and model. Your > opinions have value to you, because you believe them to be > fact, but they are meaningless to others. > Regardless of what brand I may represent or which product I > may own at this time, the internet and most certainly this > pipechat group is not the place to promote or even mention > your favorite digital organ brand. All such opinions are > extremely biased, out of place and therefore nonsense and > irrelevant. Case closed. > > Gary > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Teah <mailto:teahzg@charter.net> > To: PipeChat <mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 9:35 PM > Subject: Re: How does the Rodgers sound compared to an Allen > > Gary wrote: > > "As I said in my original advice, yours is only one > opinion and as such is totally useless to the other person > ready to investigate his or her own purchase. > A knowledgeable adult is not influenced by the idle sales > talk of promoting one instrument over another, no matter > what direction it comes from. > Sound, Quality construction, Price, Parts availability, > that's where it's at. > Caveat Emptor - Buyer Beware." > > Gary, > > > > Gary, > > Granted, my opinion may be only one, but I fail to see > how that opinion is "totally useless". Do you think I > am totally clueless? I think not! > While I did resent the strong arm sales tactics > employed by some dealerships, that was not the > deciding factor. For me the potential builders were > narrowed to 3: Eminent, Johannus, and Cantor. I > chose Cantor for the very reasons you stated. 1. > Sound Quality (Musicom System, not Sample > Technology). 2. Construction (Hand crafted console) > 3. Price (and warranty) 4. Service. Cantor has met > or exceded my expectations and requirements in every > instance. Eminent and Johannus, while fine > instruments, could not give me what I wanted in an > organ "off the floor". > > Since you are a Johannus Dealer, one can naturally > assume that it is in your interest to promote the > Johannus product line. Just as it would be for > Rodgers, Allen, or other dealers. The fact that I > purchased a digital organ from that other Dutch > builder does not invalidate my opinion of all 3. Have > you seen, heard, or played a Cantor? I doubt it, > since there are only 2 in the US, and you haven't been > to my house.... so, what weight should I give your > opinion? Rather little I would think. > > Respectfully, > > Tim > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system > (http://www.grisoft.com <http://www.grisoft.com/>). > Version: 6.0.454 / Virus Database: 253 - Release Date: > 2/10/2003 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > http://explorer.msn.com       --------------080806080404050006020003 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <title></title> </head> <body> Somehow you've gotten subscribed to Pipe Chat. &nbsp; If you don't want = &nbsp;it -- just go to <pre wrap=3D""><a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://www.pipechat.org">http://www.pipechat.org</a></pre> and take your name/address off the subscription list.<br> <br> Steve Best in Utica, NY<br> <br> AUBREY STEM wrote:<br> <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"midOE147xRiw42WE3CIvLW00023f74@hotmail.com"> <div><font face=3D"Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif" size=3D"4">I love = organs but I do not know how I am getting all these emails can someone help = answer this question??????</font></div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(0,0,0); margin-left: 5px; = margin-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px;"> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: = normal; font-size-adjust: none;">----- Original Message -----</div> <div style=3D"background: rgb(228,228,228) none repeat scroll 0%; color: = black; font-family: Arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: = normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>From:</b> Teah</div> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 15, 2003 12:46 AM</div> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: = normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>To:</b> PipeChat</div> <div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: = normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: How does the Rodgers sound compared to an Allen</div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <meta content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1141" name=3D"GENERATOR"> <style></style> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Gary,</font></div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Of late, several List Members = have asked for information AND opinions of various "brands" of digital organs, Cantor and Phoenix specifically.&nbsp; Members who replied to these posts have = shared good information and informed opinions on the subject.&nbsp; I suppose all = of us who have participated in this thread are from your point of view = "nonsensical and irrelevant".</font></div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Who are you to determine what is = or is not an appropriate thread for this Forum, or to deem certain opinions irrelevant?&nbsp; That to me is the height of arrogance.&nbsp; If one = doesn't approve the subject of a thread, there is always the delete key.</font></div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">I have no desire to promote any = brand of organ over another, and I don't think I have done so.&nbsp; I simply = answered specific questions about&nbsp;the brand of&nbsp;organ that I own.&nbsp; I = have no affiliation or interest in any organ company.&nbsp; My interest is in organs, whether = Pipes or Digital.&nbsp; No particular "brand" or type.&nbsp; They each have = there place within the musical community.</font></div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">I must thank you for the put down = in such a public place.&nbsp; It's good to know that Gary Deboer is so = eminently qualified to determine what is or is not relevant to the discussion.&nbsp; = Get over yourself.</font></div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Tim</font></div> <blockquote dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(0,0,0); margin-left: 5px; = margin-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px;"> <div style=3D"font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: = normal; font-size-adjust: none;">----- Original Message ----- </div> <div style=3D"background: rgb(228,228,228) none repeat scroll 0%; font-family: = arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; = font-size-adjust: none;"><b>From:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:gdeboer@bluemarble.net" title=3D"gdeboer@bluemarble.net">G. Deboer</a> </div> <div style=3D"font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: = normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org" title=3D"pipechat@pipechat.org">PipeChat</a> </div> <div style=3D"font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: = normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 14, 2003 10:49 PM</div> <div style=3D"font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: = normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: How does the Rodgers sound compared to an Allen</div> <div><br> </div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">I have not promoted, not even = mentioned any particular brand name.&nbsp; </font></div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">I have not seen nor heard a = Cantor and have never&nbsp;formed an opinion of one.&nbsp; </font></div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">People have selected other = brands of organs for exactly the same reasons you are giving to your name and = model.&nbsp; Your opinions have value to you, because you believe them to be fact, but they are meaningless to others.</font></div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Regardless of what brand I may = represent or which product I may own at this time, the internet and most certainly this pipechat group is not the place to promote or even mention your = favorite digital organ brand.&nbsp; All such opinions are extremely biased, out of = place&nbsp;and therefore nonsense and irrelevant.&nbsp; Case closed.</font></div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Gary</font>&nbsp;</div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <blockquote dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(0,0,0); margin-left: 5px; = margin-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px;"> <div style=3D"font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: = normal; font-size-adjust: none;">----- Original Message ----- </div> <div style=3D"background: rgb(228,228,228) none repeat scroll 0%; font-family: = arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; = font-size-adjust: none;"><b>From:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:teahzg@charter.net" = title=3D"teahzg@charter.net">Teah</a> </div> <div style=3D"font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: = normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org" title=3D"pipechat@pipechat.org">PipeChat</a> </div> <div style=3D"font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: = normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 14, 2003 9:35 PM</div> <div style=3D"font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: = normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: How does the Rodgers sound compared to an Allen</div> <div><br> </div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Gary wrote:</font></div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">"<font face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2">As I said in my original advice, yours is only one opinion and as such is = totally useless to&nbsp;the other person ready to investigate his or her own = purchase.</font> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">A knowledgeable adult is not = influenced by the idle sales talk of promoting one instrument over another, no matter what direction it comes from.</font></div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Sound, Quality construction, = Price, Parts availability, that's where it's at.</font></div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Caveat Emptor - Buyer = Beware."</font></div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <div>Gary,</div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <div>&nbsp;</div> </font></div> <blockquote dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(0,0,0); margin-left: 5px; = margin-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px;"> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Gary,</font></div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Granted, my opinion may be = only one, but I fail to see how that opinion is "totally useless".&nbsp; Do you = think I am totally clueless?&nbsp; I think not!</font></div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">While I did resent the = strong arm sales tactics employed by some dealerships, that was not the deciding factor.&nbsp; For me the&nbsp;potential builders were narrowed to 3:&nbsp; = Eminent, Johannus, and Cantor.&nbsp; I chose Cantor for the very reasons you stated.&nbsp; 1. = Sound Quality (Musicom System, not Sample Technology).&nbsp; 2. Construction (Hand = crafted console)&nbsp; 3.&nbsp; Price (and warranty)&nbsp; 4. Service.</font>&nbsp;<font = face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">&nbsp; Cantor has met or exceded my expectations and requirements in every = instance.&nbsp; Eminent and Johannus, while fine instruments, could not give me what I = wanted in an organ "off the floor".</font></div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Since you are a Johannus = Dealer, one can naturally assume that it is in your interest to promote the = Johannus product line.&nbsp; Just as it would be for Rodgers, Allen, or other = dealers.&nbsp; The fact that I purchased a digital organ from that other Dutch builder = does not invalidate my opinion of all 3.&nbsp; Have you seen, heard, or played = a Cantor?&nbsp; I doubt it, since there are only 2 in the US, and you haven't been to my house.... so, what weight should I give your opinion?&nbsp; Rather little = I would think.</font></div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Respectfully,</font></div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Tim</font></div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><br> ---<br> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.<br> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (<a = href=3D"http://www.grisoft.com/">http://www.grisoft.com</a>).<br> Version: 6.0.454 / Virus Database: 253 - Release Date: = 2/10/2003</font></div> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> <br clear=3D"all"> <hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href=3D"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html>   --------------080806080404050006020003--    
(back) Subject: Combination instruments and Wicks From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:45:16 EST     --part1_68.2d1a9cb2.2b7fba8c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Fellow listmembers--   I've had the opportunity recently to play some new Wicks organs. The new tonal director (Bill Hamner) is making great strides in the sound of = Wicks. Scott Wick told me that they still have all the drawings and scalings of Henry Vincent Willis and would love to build an organ in that style. = They've had a bad rap for a number of years about their instruments, but the = quality is good and their tonal work is now headed in a more Romantic-Skinner kind = of direction.   Scott told me that they are going to do some work on their console designs =   because Martin Wick didn't see a need to change things, but they've had requests and suggestions from many organists, so they are going to be = using Harris toe studs/drawknob units, etc.   If you haven't had the opportunity to play or hear a new Wicks, go seek = one out. I was very pleased to hear what is being done today, since all I = knew were older instruments from the 1960's and 70's, and it's hard to judge anything on the "standards" that were common back then.   As to Digital/Pipe combination organs, I have no problem incorporating digital additions into pipe organs. I think that they are most effective when the digital additions are things that will not get played by = themselves, such as 32' stops, secondary celestes on the manuals, Vox Humana, or solo stops like an English Horn, Clarinet, etc. I don't like choruses that are =   based on an 8'Principal rank, and the rest of the chorus is digital. My = rule of thumb is that the instrument should have integrity as a full pipe organ =   and then it can be enhanced by digital stops. I'm designing a 5 manual 100+ rank organ for a church right now, and we = are going to have some digital stops in it, because of space issues. The = organ will be complete in it's own right, but there are a few stops that we want =   included, but there is just not space for, so they'll be digital. We = would have to sacrifice some manaul stops to squeeze in a couple of 32' ranks. = I am opting to have several 32' stops be digital for notes 1-12 and pick up = at 16'C with real pipes. I don't see the sense in skimping on some important =   stops just to have 12 notes that are "luxuries." My response to the = argument of it not being "pure" is this: don't use the digital stops if you don't want to...there are plenty of real pipe ranks on it's own. At 100+ranks = of very large scaled pipework, this instrument will be complete. The digital =   stops will be for a few luxury stops that I feel we need, but I'm not = going to have at the expense of anything necessary. There will be a full length =   32' Principal in the facade, there will be complete choruses in every division, and the Pedal Bombarde is going to have wooden resonators. What =   more can you ask for? One will not be able to say that it's not a "real" pipe organ. I know I'm probably fueling the dicussion that has no right or wrong, but = I'm just offering my humble opinion.     Monty Bennett   --part1_68.2d1a9cb2.2b7fba8c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D3 FAMILY=3D3D"SERIF" = FACE=3D3D"=3D Times New Roman" LANG=3D3D"0">Fellow listmembers--<BR> <BR> I've had the opportunity recently to play some new Wicks organs.&nbsp; The = n=3D ew tonal director (Bill Hamner) is making great strides in the sound of = Wick=3D s.&nbsp; Scott Wick told me that they still have all the drawings and = scalin=3D gs of Henry Vincent Willis and would love to build an organ in that = style.&n=3D bsp; They've had a bad rap for a number of years about their instruments, = bu=3D t the quality is good and their tonal work is now headed in a more = Romantic-=3D Skinner kind of direction.<BR> <BR> Scott told me that they are going to do some work on their console designs = b=3D ecause Martin Wick didn't see a need to change things, but they've had = reque=3D sts and suggestions from many organists, so they are going to be using = Harri=3D s toe studs/drawknob units, etc.&nbsp; <BR> <BR> If you haven't had the opportunity to play or hear a new Wicks, go seek = one=3D20=3D out.&nbsp; I was very pleased to hear what is being done today, since all = I=3D20=3D knew were older instruments from the 1960's and 70's, and it's hard to = judge=3D anything on the "standards" that were common back then.<BR> <BR> As to Digital/Pipe combination organs, I have no problem incorporating = digit=3D al additions into pipe organs.&nbsp; I think that they are most effective = wh=3D en the digital additions are things that will not get played by = themselves,=3D20=3D such as 32' stops, secondary celestes on the manuals, Vox Humana, or solo = st=3D ops like an English Horn, Clarinet, etc.&nbsp; I don't like choruses that = ar=3D e based on an 8'Principal rank, and the rest of the chorus is = digital.&nbsp;=3D My rule of thumb is that the instrument should have integrity as a full = pip=3D e organ and then it can be enhanced by digital stops.<BR> I'm designing a 5 manual 100+ rank organ for a church right now, and we = are=3D20=3D going to have some digital stops in it, because of space issues.&nbsp; The = o=3D rgan will be complete in it's own right, but there are a few stops that we = w=3D ant included, but there is just not space for, so they'll be = digital.&nbsp;=3D20=3D We would have to sacrifice some manaul stops to squeeze in a couple of 32' = r=3D anks.&nbsp; I am opting to have several 32' stops be digital for notes = 1-12=3D20=3D and pick up at 16'C with real pipes.&nbsp; I don't see the sense in = skimping=3D on some important stops just to have 12 notes that are "luxuries."&nbsp; = My=3D response to the argument of it not being "pure" is this:&nbsp; don't use = th=3D e digital stops if you don't want to...there are plenty of real pipe ranks = o=3D n it's own.&nbsp; At 100+ranks of very large scaled pipework, this = instrumen=3D t will be complete.&nbsp; The digital stops will be for a few luxury stops = t=3D hat I feel we need, but I'm not going to have at the expense of anything = nec=3D essary.&nbsp; There will be a full length 32' Principal in the facade, = there=3D will be complete choruses in every division, and the Pedal Bombarde is = goin=3D g to have wooden resonators.&nbsp; What more can you ask for?&nbsp; One = will=3D not be able to say that it's not a "real" pipe organ.<BR> I know I'm probably fueling the dicussion that has no right or wrong, but = I'=3D m just offering my humble opinion.<BR> <BR> <BR> Monty Bennett</FONT></HTML>   --part1_68.2d1a9cb2.2b7fba8c_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Bennett Console From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:28:04 -0600   Rich--where is it--at your shop in Kenney? I'd love to see it.   Dennis Steckley ______________   BTW, the 3 manual Horseshoe console, complete with its original Reisner Stop Action Magnets is available for sale!