PipeChat Digest #3489 - Friday, February 21, 2003
 
RE: "Celestes"+ French organ & music rant
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve>
Re: Animals and organs
  by <Pepehomer@aol.com>
Re: Animals and organs
  by <Chicaleee@aol.com>
"unexpressive"
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
The American Church in Paris
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Huguenot Flibustiers, was Lighter and irreverent Organ	History of Ven
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: The American Church in Paris
  by <DudelK@aol.com>
Out of topic but...
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve>
Re: Out of topic but...
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Alma Redemptoris Mater - Palestrina (X-posted)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Digital bashing
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
ATTENTION - Strange Server Problems
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
 

(back) Subject: RE: "Celestes"+ French organ & music rant From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:55:31 -0400   Andres Gunther agun@telcel.net.ve   Hi all again... This thread goes on and on, and Paul Emmons' remarks and questions are worth to be considered.   ----- Original Message ----- From: Emmons, Paul <pemmons@wcupa.edu> To: 'PipeChat' <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 2:49 PM Subject: RE: "Celestes"+ French organ & music rant   (SNIP)   > As for > the organ at Notre-Dame, Albert Schweitzer explained that during World = War I > the stained glass windows of the cathedral were removed for safekeeping= , > leaving the organ exposed to the elements, and it was never the same ev= er > afterwards. Cochereau was not entirely to blame for the way it sounds, and > Cavaille-Coll should not be blamed at all.   Further on: The ND organ was enlarged by CC, but isn't a 100% original CC organ, it h= ad many stops and right more it has even more stops from other builders and actually it has CC ranks but action etc was changed since them. Cochereau had to fight for many years to have the ND organ overhauled, an= d never was happy. As a **strictly personal matter**, I don't like how he played or improvised. A friend of me studied in France when the so long awaited ND overhaul was done (*after* Cochereau's death) and nobody was pleased with the results; seems to be that they built in too many last generation HiTech goodies th= at caused a terrible mess and the console had to be kept open for manual res= et or whatever- I don't remeber well.- I am careful with HiTech-goodies precisely for this reason (recently there was a terrific thread in other List about this topic).   > > The celestes I've heard on these organs are more along the line of th= e > frying-bacon variety or just strange-sounding than they are a warm soun= d > that I want from MY strings.   Having to care six CC organs I never thought about frying bacon when I he= ard the Celestes. They have a full, stringing, warm sound. Much more "scandaleuse" are some german and spanish narrow scaled zinc made celeste= s we have here (darn things; now my mouth will water everytime I hear them- I *love* fried bacon) :))   Back to CC. These organs *have* a strong sound per se, and they even can sound harsh or strident for who is nearby them on the choir. But in the church nave, where they *have* to sound they sound *great*. And fortunate= dly the CC swellboxes allowe a wide-range dynamic scala.   > I'd like to hear other opinions or experiences about this. I have yet = to > play an organ in France <sigh>.   Don't sigh. Enjoy! :)) Only have care if you have to deal with a 100% original CC: The action is astoundingly heavy in comparison to modern standards.   > But my understanding is that French strings > are typically broad and warm, as you and I both like, and for the most part > that is what I hear in recordings.   Absolutely right, at least with CC! You won't be disappointed I think.   > (SNIP) the fact that a given church's organ and organist are > both world-renowned might leave its clergy, whose names will drop into > obscurity on the morrow of their retirements, disgustingly unimpressed = and > indifferent. Now, where have we heard that before? (SNIP) There are probably other > cases of such restrictions.   The Organist vs Clergy fights make legion. We in 21th cty Venezuela have exactly the same problem. The parish is the boss, and puts on the rules. = If you don't "like them" you can go, no matter who you are. So simple.   I went to survey the CC Organ in San Jose because so many Piporg-L member= s asked for it. When I arrived, the parish grunted: "You again?- What in he= ck do you folks ever have to fuss around this instrument for?- and he gave m= e only two hours =A1to survey a whole 17 stop organ! You guess what I did...   In other occasion I was limited in my working time (for repairs) from 9,0= 0 am to 12,00 m and from 3,00 pm to 5,00 pm. I got nuts about this wicked t= ime loss, specially at noon: Since the church was far away from my home and s= hop I had to sit in a nearby Cafeteria for three hours, sometimes more. But nothing could be done.   When it comes to organ practice things are thoughter, and even recitals h= ave time limits. The fact that in my country church and government are on "co= ld war" right now doesn't make things any better (many recitals are state-supported).   Okay. Menos lagrimas y mas accion (less tears and more action). Wish you luck with the french organ! :)   Cheers Andres =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.      
(back) Subject: Re: Animals and organs From: <Pepehomer@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:11:41 -0500   Back when I lived in Kansas, we had one summer where there was a = tremendously high number of moths. The church, being right in the middle = of the countyside and made of limestone, was a perfect place for these = moths to go into, since the limestone kept things "cooler" (no air = conditioning, since the building is a little over 100 years old)   Each week the organ got more and more out of tune, and random notes = stopped working altogeter. So something had to be done. I was = volunteered (being only about 10 at the time I was small enough) to go in = and start finding pipes that weren't working. Since it was an = "emergency", we had no choice but to do it ourselves (not being trained in = proper pipe tuning) - so we took the pipes out, cleared the moths out, and = replaced the pipe (we had the organ retuned that fall). When we got done, = we had a pile about a foot high of dead moths. That was around the time = the movie "Dances with Wolves' came out, so I thus was "Plays with Moths"   Justin Karch Organist, Holy Trinity LCMS Rome, GA  
(back) Subject: Re: Animals and organs From: <Chicaleee@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:20:23 EST     --part1_19a.11198755.2b87e407_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I don't have a cat, but I do have a Pekingese who is about the size of a = cat. When I practice the organ she jumps across the pedals, licking my feet. When I play the piano, she sits as close to the sounding board as she can get, but if I sing along, she hides under the bed. (I may have told this before.) Now, she is jealous of the attention I give the computer, so she =   likes to sit in my lap and put her paws on the computer keyboard. Lee   --part1_19a.11198755.2b87e407_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#400040" SIZE=3D3D2 = FAMILY=3D =3D3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D3D"Arial" LANG=3D3D"0">I don't have a cat, but I = do have a=3D Pekingese who is about the size of a cat.&nbsp; When I practice the organ = s=3D he jumps across the pedals, licking my feet.&nbsp; When I play the piano, = sh=3D e sits as close to the sounding board as she can get, but if I sing along, = s=3D he hides under the bed.&nbsp; (I may have told this before.)&nbsp; Now, = she=3D20=3D is jealous of the attention I give the computer, so she likes to sit in my = l=3D ap and put her paws on the computer keyboard.&nbsp; Lee</FONT></HTML>   --part1_19a.11198755.2b87e407_boundary--  
(back) Subject: "unexpressive" From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:08:50 EST   Without swell boxes, just how DID Bach achieve expression? Writers' rule number 783: Choose your words, and their antecedents, WISELY.  
(back) Subject: The American Church in Paris From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:12:08 EST   If I am not mistaken, the rather substantial von Beckerath replaced a Stoot-vintage Casavant. Anybody know for sure?  
(back) Subject: Re: Huguenot Flibustiers, was Lighter and irreverent Organ History of Venezuela 01 From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:31:50 -0500   On 2/21/03 12:22 PM, "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve> wrote:   > End of the non topic.   OK, Andr=E9s--and thanks. Your reply is perfectly logical. It's I who'm not= ..   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: The American Church in Paris From: <DudelK@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:41:14 -0500   The initial question was about the American Cathedral (Episcopal) not the = American Church; the latter has a von Beckerath, I believe. The American = Cathedral has a website with details about the organ. I haven't looked for = a website for the American Church. If memory serves, there is also a = Lutheran church near the American church, but it was closed when I was = there.   Rump L. Stiltskin    
(back) Subject: Out of topic but... From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:08:36 -0400   Andres Gunther agun@telcel.net.ve   When I went to play the 5,00 pm Mass I went by the Newspaper Stand, and = our Afternoon Paper cried out in 3 inch capital letters "Oil Reffinery = exploded in New York"   My Godness- are you folks in the NY area all right ?!   Because if a *Venezuelan afternoon 'cheese-newspaper'* brings out a news like this in three inch letters it must be something terrible!   Wish you the best Andres    
(back) Subject: Re: Out of topic but... From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:02:16 -0500   On 2/21/03 6:08 PM, "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve> wrote:   > My Godness- are you folks in the NY area all right ?! >=20 Thanks for your good wishes, Andr=E9s. With the exception of three or four people, we're fine. Just an accident at a fuel-transferring facility. Ver= y dramatic, but (except for "these times") not anything to get terribly excited about.=20   Alan    
(back) Subject: Alma Redemptoris Mater - Palestrina (X-posted) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 16:21:34 -0800   I just finished an English edition ... we used to sing it in Latin on the Feast of the Annunciation every year (yeah, I know it's the wrong proper antiphon, but it fits the Gospel) (grin).   If anybody wants it, e-mail me privately and let me know whether you want PDF or Sibelius files.   If you're on my download list, you don't have to do anything ... it just went out.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: Digital bashing From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 20:45:04 EST     --part1_f.ad8d28d.2b883020_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 2/21/03 1:23:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, = KJW6311@aol.com writes:     > Isn't the real issue the sound? Whether from pushing air through a = tube or > by means of digital wizardry, the sound is what counts. >   Exactly... the sound... the REAL sound!   > I would rather play a 15 stop instrument of this design any day than = the > glued together 15 rank pipe organ that I play. It spits at you, doesn't =   > hold tune, needs releathering (the parts that still contain leather) it > fails at leading the assembly to its fullest potential and so much for > trumpet tunes. The raucous sound is so uneven and brash it has turned = many > of our folks off from organ music in favor of piano and guitar. I hate = it. >   Perhaps if the time and money was spent bringing this instrument to its potential all would be surprised. It is amazing what some careful = finishing will do! Sadly, most people would rather whine and bellyache and get something new and shiny. Your technician (who said that you'd probably be =   better off with an electronic) sounds to me to likely be a significant = part of the problem. I had known several technicians who use this method of indifferent care to justify a nice, clostly rebuild.   > in this day and age an informed person/committee cannot so easily > dismiss the reality, practicality and musical integrity of some digital > organs which are proving to be superior to their 'wind in a tube' > forerunners. In truth, what you hear is a pipe organ. The pipes (that > were cloned) just happen to be somewhere else! Best of all? No > releathering, tuning or routine maintenance! >   Oh dear... and your lovely colonial building will someday have aluminum or =   vinyl siding and plastic windows!! Yes, the real pipes are somewhere else... you're listening to a recording! If you want to get really = cheap, just get a CD player! No releathering, tuning or routine = maintenance.... and most importantly, you must listen to the dang thing until is falls = apart in twenty or thirty years.   > What I cannot begin to understand is the love affair with Baroque museum =   > reproductions with no expression or combination action for music making. =   I really feel sorry for you that you cannot be open enough to appreciate a =   beautiful style of organ building. It's certainly not the only way to = build an instrument but it, as does most styles, has its own unique qualities.   > pushing for improvements and tonal additions to the builders > he had contact with. I can only see him having 'a ball' at a modern = organ! > How would he have 'pushed the envelope' with his composition and = playing > if he had access to an organ of today?   It is extremely presumptuous to assume that Bach would willy-nilly = appreciate every "improvement" in the organ.   > > transportation or light their homes with whale oil?   Check around. Many people take great joy in riding horses and taking a = ride in a horse-drawn carriage. Candles and oil lamps are often used to make =   occasions really special and beautiful. Hand made crafts and woodwork = are extremely valued by many people.   > Go listen and make beautiful music instead of bashing the stereotypical =   > 'fake.' > I do just that. I go play a pipe organ, make beautiful music on a pipe organ, and don't bother with bashing stereotypical (or even = monaurotypical) FAKE organ-like appliances. I have muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch better = things to do!! ;-)   Like making beautiful music on a pipe organ!     Bruce, with Miles, Molly and Degui in the Muttastery at Howling Acres http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502     --part1_f.ad8d28d.2b883020_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>In a message dated = 2/21/0=3D 3 1:23:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, KJW6311@aol.com writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D3DCITE style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-=3D LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Isn't the real issue the = so=3D und? &nbsp;&nbsp;Whether from pushing air through a tube or by means of = digi=3D tal wizardry, the sound is what counts. &nbsp; <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D3 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D3D"Ar=3D ial" LANG=3D3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D2 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D3D"Ar=3D ial" LANG=3D3D"0">Exactly... the sound... the REAL sound! <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D3 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D3D"Ar=3D ial" LANG=3D3D"0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D2 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D3D"Ar=3D ial" LANG=3D3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D3DCITE style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: = #0000ff 2px so=3D lid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> I would = rather=3D play a 15 &nbsp;stop &nbsp;instrument of this design any day than the = glued=3D together 15 rank pipe organ that I play. &nbsp;It spits at you, doesn't = hol=3D d tune, needs releathering (the parts that still contain leather) it fails = a=3D t leading the assembly to its fullest potential and so much for trumpet = tune=3D s. &nbsp;The raucous sound is so uneven and brash it has turned many of = our=3D20=3D folks off from organ music in favor of piano and guitar. &nbsp;I hate it. = </=3D FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D3 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D3D"Arial" L=3D ANG=3D3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D2 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D3D"Ar=3D ial" LANG=3D3D"0">Perhaps if the time and money was spent bringing this = instru=3D ment to its potential all would be surprised. &nbsp;It is amazing what = some=3D20=3D careful finishing will do! &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Sadly, most people would = rather=3D whine and bellyache and get something new and shiny. &nbsp;Your = technician=3D20=3D (who said that you'd probably be better off with an electronic) sounds to = me=3D to likely be a significant part of the problem. &nbsp;&nbsp;I had known = sev=3D eral technicians who use this method of indifferent care to justify a = nice,=3D20=3D clostly rebuild. <BR> <BR>....<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D3DCITE style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MAR=3D GIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">in this day and age = an=3D20=3D informed person/committee cannot so easily dismiss the reality, = practicality=3D and musical integrity of <U>some</U> digital organs which are proving to = be=3D superior to their 'wind in a tube' forerunners. &nbsp;In truth, what you = he=3D ar is a pipe organ. &nbsp;The pipes (that were cloned) just happen to be = som=3D ewhere else! &nbsp;Best of all? &nbsp;No releathering, tuning or routine = mai=3D ntenance! &nbsp; <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D3 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D3D"Ar=3D ial" LANG=3D3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D2 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D3D"Ar=3D ial" LANG=3D3D"0">Oh dear... and your lovely colonial building will = someday ha=3D ve aluminum or vinyl siding and plastic windows!! &nbsp;&nbsp;Yes, the = real=3D20=3D pipes are somewhere else... &nbsp;you're listening to a recording! = &nbsp;If=3D20=3D you want to get really cheap, just get a CD player! &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;No = rel=3D eathering, tuning or routine maintenance.... and most importantly, you = must=3D20=3D listen to the dang thing until is falls apart in twenty or thirty years. <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D3 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D3D"Ar=3D ial" LANG=3D3D"0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D2 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D3D"Ar=3D ial" LANG=3D3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D3DCITE style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: = #0000ff 2px so=3D lid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">What I cannot = b=3D egin to understand is the love affair with Baroque museum reproductions = with=3D no expression or combination action for music making. &nbsp;</FONT><FONT = C=3D OLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D3 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D3D"Arial" = LANG=3D3D"0"></B=3D LOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D2 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D3D"Ar=3D ial" LANG=3D3D"0">I really feel sorry for you that you cannot be open enough t=3D o appreciate a beautiful style of organ building. &nbsp;It's certainly not = t=3D he only way to build an instrument but it, as does most styles, has its = own=3D20=3D unique qualities. <BR> <BR>Bach was always <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D3DCITE style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: = #0000ff 2p=3D x solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">pushing = for=3D improvements and tonal additions to the builders he had contact with. = &nbsp=3D ;I can only see him having 'a ball' at a modern organ! &nbsp;How would he = ha=3D ve 'pushed the envelope' with his composition and playing if he had access = t=3D o an organ of today? </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D3 = FAMILY=3D3D"SANS=3D SERIF" FACE=3D3D"Arial" LANG=3D3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D2 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D3D"Ar=3D ial" LANG=3D3D"0">It is extremely presumptuous to assume that Bach would = willy=3D -nilly appreciate every "improvement" in the organ. &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR> <BR> How many advocates of these types of instruments still use = horse-drawn=3D20=3D <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D3DCITE style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT=3D : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">transportation or light their = h=3D omes with whale oil? </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D3 = FAMILY=3D3D"SANS=3D SERIF" FACE=3D3D"Arial" LANG=3D3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3D2 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D3D"Ar=3D ial" LANG=3D3D"0">Check around. &nbsp;&nbsp;Many people take great joy in = ridi=3D ng horses and taking a ride in a horse-drawn carriage. = &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Can=3D dles and oil lamps are often used to make occasions really special and = beaut=3D iful. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hand made crafts and woodwork are extremely valued = b=3D y many people. <BR> <BR>=3D20 <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D3DCITE style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-=3D LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Go listen and make = beautifu=3D l music instead of bashing the stereotypical &nbsp;'fake.' &nbsp; <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>I do just that. &nbsp;I go play a pipe organ, make beautiful music on = a=3D20=3D pipe organ, and don't bother with bashing stereotypical (or even = monaurotypi=3D cal) FAKE organ-like appliances. &nbsp;&nbsp;I have = muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc=3D h better things to do!! &nbsp;;-) <BR> <BR>Like making beautiful music on a pipe organ! <BR> <BR> <BR>Bruce, with Miles, Molly and Degui &nbsp;in the Muttastery at Howling = Ac=3D res http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 = &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR></FONT></HTML>   --part1_f.ad8d28d.2b883020_boundary--  
(back) Subject: ATTENTION - Strange Server Problems From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:57:32 -0600   Folks   I am currently in Sarasota Florida and there seems to be some problems with the servers back in Little Rock. I just had someone reboot the DSL line which seemed to go down this evening. It is back up but there is a possibility that it might go down again over the next couple of days. So if you don't get any mail from PipeChat it is probably the DSL line acting up.   I will be home on Sunday night and will deal with whatever is causing the problem once I get home but I just wanted to give you a "heads up". If you send mail to the server and it doesn't come back soon it means the DSL line is down again. But the mail goes to a back-up mail server and will be held there until the main server comes back on line.   Sorry for the inconvenience   David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org