PipeChat Digest #3500 - Wednesday, February 26, 2003
 
Accreditation (was S.B.'s and K.-G.)
  by "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca>
Re: X-Posted -- Rite help!
  by <REEDSTOP@prodigy.net>
Re: Skinner Pipework
  by "firman1" <firman1@prodigy.net>
RE: Skinner Pipework
  by "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu>
ALL READ!!!
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
Re: Skinner Pipework
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: X-Posted -- Rite help!
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Accreditation Difficulties
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: KEATES-GEISLER (not just Baptists)
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
RE: X-Posted -- Rite help!
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net>
Re: Skinner Pipework
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Re: Accreditation Difficulties
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
Mainzer Dom Organ(s)
  by "Mark Quarmby" <mark_quarmby@yahoo.com>
 

(back) Subject: Accreditation (was S.B.'s and K.-G.) From: "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:35:11 -0500   Dear Ronald: Forgive me for replying to a question directed to SMG. This subject was discussed a number of months ago. I don't wish to "brush-off" the content = of your excellent post, however there are problems involved with what you are proposing. I make my entire income servicing, tuning and rebuilding pipe organs. = Where I live there is a "dog eat dog" attitude between most in the pipe organ business. If a committee were set-up here to accredit some, and by = default, discredit others, all manner of evil could prevail.   In my "neck of the woods" those responsible for accreditation would predictably use their position for a purpose other than the protection of consumers of pipe organ products. It would be abused and used as a tool to eliminate competition. Competition is ALWAYS good for everyone-with one exception: those who may never have faced potent competition and typically they would be those on the top of the heap and most likely to be in a position to manipulate the mechanism of accreditation. I'm not suggesting this would indeed happen, but it likely would.   This system works for physicians, engineers, architects, attorneys, etc. = The one thing that is common to all professions that have a system of accreditation is that there is a tremendous amount and volume of money involved in the things they work with.   I would be in favour of your idea if I could be confident that it would operate by the highest principles. I cannot imagine that happening. I have more than a few knife scars on my back to prove it.   AjM -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Ronald David Gibson Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 12:19 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Southern Baptists and Geates-Keissler   Dear SMG,   One idea that might work would be to offer Churches an online source of initial advice whereby a rotating schedule of reputable persons in the industry (such as yourself) might be available through the auspices of the Professional Organ Builders Societies to field inquiries with basic = answers along the lines of: "These are the Truths that We Hold". While there is much in Organ Building that varies according to style and design, still there must surely be some principles that can be universally applied. For example, Quality Control in the Airline Industry would almost certainly focus on (among other things) "delays, cancellations, lost baggage and crashes". What are the equivalent parameters in Organ Building?   It should also be possible create a system of "Technical Credentialing" similar to that set up by the Federal Government for Medicine---"The National Practitioner Data Bank" which collates and disseminates such information as malpractice lawsuits, criminal prosecutions, privilege suspensions and revocations, and increasingly, such illuminating details = as morbidity/mortality, complications, and infections, etc. Such a system would establish individualized performance track records for all persons engaged in this craft so that when a Church is contemplating a contract, they can access a source of objective information consisting of an individual's credentials, achievements, successes and failures. = Churches often times haven't any reliable basis on which to judge the credibility = of what they're being told. If what they're hearing is backed up by a documented record that reinforces an excellent reputation amongst an Organ Builder's peers, the cause of superior Organ Building will have been served.   Sincerely yours,   Ronald D. Gibson   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Re: X-Posted -- Rite help! From: <REEDSTOP@prodigy.net> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 15:07:27 -0500   Alan, thanks....I called my home church and am having the one from "Lutheran Worship" sent home with my son.   Thanks everyone!   Jeff    
(back) Subject: Re: Skinner Pipework From: "firman1" <firman1@prodigy.net> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:27:57 -0600   RE: Every gun that is made and every warship that is launched, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed--Dwight Eisenhower   Yeah, those poor bastards in Iraq sure suffer under Saddam. Berley Antoine Firmin II Bayou La Combe, Louisiana    
(back) Subject: RE: Skinner Pipework From: "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:29:24 -0600   I believe the list owners asked that this thread be stopped some time ago.   -----Original Message----- From: firman1 [mailto:firman1@prodigy.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 2:28 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Skinner Pipework   RE: Every gun that is made and every warship that is launched, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed--Dwight Eisenhower   Yeah, those poor bastards in Iraq sure suffer under Saddam. Berley Antoine Firmin II Bayou La Combe, Louisiana     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: ALL READ!!! From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:38:18 -0600   Tim asked nicely this morning to drop the subject of a political nature especially in regard to whatever happens with Iraq. I am now reinforcing that. This list is not the place to discuss political matters. Starting now I will set to NO POST anyone that wants to violate this rule.   David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Re: Skinner Pipework From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 15:36:45 -0500   On 2/25/03 3:29 PM, "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> wrote:   > I believe the list owners asked that this thread be stopped some time > ago.   Sooner the better. I think the partisans on either side are losing = friends rather than gaining them.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: X-Posted -- Rite help! From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 15:30:04 -0500   On 2/25/03 3:07 PM, "REEDSTOP@prodigy.net" <REEDSTOP@prodigy.net> wrote:   > Alan, thanks....I called my home church and am having > the one from "Lutheran Worship" sent home with my son. > Well, I suppose that will suffice. (Actually, of course, it's probably perfect.)   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Accreditation Difficulties From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:36:37 EST   I am in agreement with Andrew Mead on this one. As has been painfully churned about on this and other lists, there are =   plenty of people in the organ-stuff business who have stellar reputations, =   who throw in organs right and left, yet truly have no business putting in kitchen cabinets. I am one of countless practitioners who is frequently accused of being a fraud and a charlatan by people who have never met me, have never seen, heard, or played my work, and don't know the truth behind =   what is involved in each project or the running of an organ company. There are exceptionally gifted craftsmen and technicians whose talents =   remain unknown, because they have no connections, do not align themselves with the proper powers, and are more devoted to their art than they are to =   honing political skills and convincing bravado. Frequently, I have discussions with my colleagues in which we are resigned to never getting a =   job in a particular area of the country, or with a particular = denomination. I would be terrified to rate an organbuilder's work, even if I know it = to be CONSISTENTLY bad (as opposed to problems with a single project). It = would put me in the position of having to engage in what some people would = consider unprofessional behavior. To badmouth one's colleagues, even if one does = not consider them a colleague, can only reflect badly on one's way of going = about one's business. The exception is in situations where builders are asked to come in to = a disastrous project and evaluate what went wrong and how it can be = salvaged. Often, it is not just the builder who is at fault. There is a great range = of possibilities and variations between "builder takes money and runs" on one =   end, and "builder builds organ and doesn't get paid" on the other. Most = organ gossip is so one-sided that neither party gets a fair shake. The American Institute of Organbuilders is devoted to the continuing education of those who are employed in the pipe organ building field full-time. While the AIO examination certificates do not constitute legal =   accreditation, they do show that the builder has a certain amount of knowledge under their belt. Let it be known that some of the greatest builders of the last and this century have never taken an AIO exam, but certainly know much more than those of us who have taken them and passed. The AIO's educational mission for the builder has yet to be matched by = a system of musical and pipe organ education for those in seminary. Once educated, the organbuilding most often must educate his client before they =   can even consider something beyond a praise band or restoring the rotting hulk of an organ that has gone unused for decades. Try not to ask an organbuilder to rate, bash, or praise his = colleagues. You are asking him to badmouth somebody (remember the Golden Rule), or you =   are asking him to praise somebody who might be competing with him for the same work. It's awkward all around. If you are perceptive enough to ASK = such question, you are most likely bright enough to make a decision based upon getting to know each of the builders you are considering and evaluating = their work.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City  
(back) Subject: Re: KEATES-GEISLER (not just Baptists) From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:07:26 EST     --part1_a4.34574aec.2b8d431e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 2/24/2003 10:02:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, organman@cablenet-va.com writes:     > Pretty amazing these were all Baptist Churches too! Why does it always > have to be the Baptists that fall for the dupes? > > Joshua Edwards > Interim Director of Music > Thaxton Baptist Church >   Well, it wsn't just the Baptists...I know of one Pentecostl church tht got =   tken by this compny as well. The church's Pastor REALLY wanted them to = have a pipe organ, so they purchsed one from another church that was getting = new organ, and thru several turns of events, K-G got into the piecture, hauled =   the entire organ to Canada to 'rebuild' the guts (this organ was built = with Reisner 'clamshells') and then instll the orgn in the church's brand new facility. The organ sat there for several months, untouched, and the = church had to jump thru a number of (legal) hoops to re-claim their organ, which they did. They then hired another (local) organbuilder to instll the = organ, which they were in the midst of when the owner of the local organ company fell out of the pastor's good graces. I was part of the crew that = finished the installation, and in the process we converted the organ to reisner = 601's, installed a new 4-manual console (built by Reisner...it was a BEAUT!!!!), replaced every inch of wiring, and tonally completed the organ.   Rick in VA   --part1_a4.34574aec.2b8d431e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>In a message dated = 2/24/2=3D 003 10:02:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, organman@cablenet-va.com writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D3DCITE style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-=3D LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Pretty amazing these were = a=3D ll Baptist Churches too! &nbsp;Why does it always=3D20 <BR>have to be the Baptists that fall for the dupes? <BR> <BR>Joshua Edwards <BR>Interim Director of Music <BR>Thaxton Baptist Church <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR>Well, it wsn't just the Baptists...I know of one Pentecostl church tht = g=3D ot tken by this compny as well. &nbsp;The church's Pastor REALLY wanted = them=3D to have a pipe organ, so they purchsed one from another church that was = get=3D ting &nbsp;new organ, and thru several turns of events, K-G got into the = pie=3D cture, hauled the entire organ to Canada to 'rebuild' the guts (this organ = w=3D as built with Reisner 'clamshells') and then instll the orgn in the = church's=3D brand new facility. &nbsp;The organ sat there for several months, = untouched=3D , and the church had to jump thru a number of (legal) hoops to re-claim = thei=3D r organ, which they did. They then hired another (local) organbuilder to = ins=3D tll the organ, which they were in the midst of when the owner of the local = o=3D rgan company fell out of the pastor's good graces. &nbsp;I was part of the = c=3D rew that finished the installation, and in the process we converted the = orga=3D n to reisner 601's, installed a new 4-manual console (built by = Reisner...it=3D20=3D was a BEAUT!!!!), replaced every inch of wiring, and tonally completed the = o=3D rgan. <BR> <BR>Rick in VA</FONT></HTML>   --part1_a4.34574aec.2b8d431e_boundary--  
(back) Subject: RE: X-Posted -- Rite help! From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 20:14:07 -0600   Alan,in truth, I'm not pleased with it. The LBW rites are MUCH better in content. There was nothing for actual furniture (outside of the altar, pulpit, lectern, etc.), so I'm going to combine a couple of sources (including the prayer from LW) and go from there.   Thanks though!! Jeff   PS: Perfect is in the eyes of the beholder... <grin>     > Well, I suppose that will suffice. (Actually, of course, it's probably > perfect.) > > Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Skinner Pipework From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 21:01:59 -0600   I'm not sure this is something it would be at all easy to do over the internet. It would certainly be helpful to have quite a bit more data. = Is there any writing on the pipework -- stop name and pitch, style of = typeface of same, any opus number (usually on low C and/or middle C), initials or name of pipemaker and/or voicer. Is the writing stamped on, engraved on = or written in India ink? Material pipework is constructed of (zinc, spotted metal, common metal or Hoyt metal, etc. Are bells the same material as = body of pipe? How finished (covered with clear lacquer, yellowish or brownish varnish, etc.). Style and size of scroll at top of pipes. And then one might get down to exact dimensions (scales, shallot sizes, etc.) and see = if this coincides with the usual Skinner/Aeolian-Skinner schedule. They are relatively easy to identify if one has the pipes to handle, but difficult = to do over the internet, and even relatively difficult from photographs.   John Speller ----- Original Message -- --- From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 10:11 AM Subject: Skinner Pipework     > So John, tell us how to identify Skinner pipework more specifically. > I've still got this reed rank I'd like to pin down, and after I posted > my recent request, a couple of other listers told me they'd like to > know, too. > > Dennis Steckley > > Every gun that is made and every warship that is launched, signifies in > the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who > are cold and are not clothed--Dwight Eisenhower > > -----Original Message----- > > All this is recognizable from the distinctive Skinner and > Casavant construction of the pipes and from the opus numbers stamped on > the > pipes, although much of it had been revoiced and would not have been > recognizable from the sound. > > John Speller > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Accreditation Difficulties From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 23:10:24 -0500   Dear Sebastian, I think that there are two types of accreditation, technical specific and technical general. You can use any title you wish but once type (technical) would have to do with a specific aspect of organ building such as pipe making, voicing where there were actual tests with specific levels that a person had to achieve and be certified. The organ builder, during = his presentation could mention that his pipe making shop has 5 individuals who are ranked at such a nd such a level based on testing furnished by the APOBA. In the Air Force we had cetain levels that our mechanics had to be proficient at to receive promotion. The 3 level was given after graduation from a basic primary school where they were taught the mere basics of the job. In the field, they were then tested frequently and were given hands = on experience (OJT) and again tested to receive a 5 level in that field. = AFter a few years they then were given training and hands on experience for a 7 level. As for technical general, an individual was given training in each discipline, pipe shop, woodworking, machine shop, etc. etc. where he would be tested on each subject but his abilities would be more of an assistant status rather than the ability to take over as chief pipe maker. All these individuals would be given standardized tests made up by = the APOBA , reviewed and agreed upon. It could be done by correspondence and those taking the course could do it at their own pace or at the pace set = by management.This would not be difficult to set up and it would allow a pipe organ company some quantifying standards to present to a committee. Sure, this is only one aspect of the building of pipe organs but it would really give the field some sense of professionalism and a gauge to be measured = by. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> To: <mead@eagle.ca>; <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 4:36 PM Subject: Re: Accreditation Difficulties     > I am in agreement with Andrew Mead on this one. > As has been painfully churned about on this and other lists, there = are > plenty of people in the organ-stuff business who have stellar = reputations, > who throw in organs right and left, yet truly have no business putting = in > kitchen cabinets. I am one of countless practitioners who is frequently > accused of being a fraud and a charlatan by people who have never met = me, > have never seen, heard, or played my work, and don't know the truth = behind > what is involved in each project or the running of an organ company. > There are exceptionally gifted craftsmen and technicians whose = talents > remain unknown, because they have no connections, do not align = themselves > with the proper powers, and are more devoted to their art than they are = to > honing political skills and convincing bravado. Frequently, I have > discussions with my colleagues in which we are resigned to never getting = a > job in a particular area of the country, or with a particular denomination. > I would be terrified to rate an organbuilder's work, even if I know = it to > be CONSISTENTLY bad (as opposed to problems with a single project). It would > put me in the position of having to engage in what some people would consider > unprofessional behavior. To badmouth one's colleagues, even if one does not > consider them a colleague, can only reflect badly on one's way of going about > one's business. > The exception is in situations where builders are asked to come in = to a > disastrous project and evaluate what went wrong and how it can be salvaged. > Often, it is not just the builder who is at fault. There is a great = range of > possibilities and variations between "builder takes money and runs" on = one > end, and "builder builds organ and doesn't get paid" on the other. Most organ > gossip is so one-sided that neither party gets a fair shake. > The American Institute of Organbuilders is devoted to the continuing > education of those who are employed in the pipe organ building field > full-time. While the AIO examination certificates do not constitute = legal > accreditation, they do show that the builder has a certain amount of > knowledge under their belt. Let it be known that some of the greatest > builders of the last and this century have never taken an AIO exam, but > certainly know much more than those of us who have taken them and = passed. > The AIO's educational mission for the builder has yet to be matched = by a > system of musical and pipe organ education for those in seminary. Once > educated, the organbuilding most often must educate his client before = they > can even consider something beyond a praise band or restoring the = rotting > hulk of an organ that has gone unused for decades. > Try not to ask an organbuilder to rate, bash, or praise his colleagues. > You are asking him to badmouth somebody (remember the Golden Rule), or = you > are asking him to praise somebody who might be competing with him for = the > same work. It's awkward all around. If you are perceptive enough to ASK such > question, you are most likely bright enough to make a decision based = upon > getting to know each of the builders you are considering and evaluating their > work. > > Sebastian M. Gluck > New York City > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Mainzer Dom Organ(s) From: "Mark Quarmby" <mark_quarmby@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 19:32:03 +1100   I attended Mass at Mainz Cathedral about 18 months ago. I was very=20 disappointed in the organ. The nave was full of congregation and all I=20=   could hear from the organs were "bubble and squeak" - typical of=20 neo-classical instruments. There was a huge lack of bass in the=20 enormous building. I was surprised to read that there is a Untersatz 32=20=   as I couldn't hear one (perhaps the organist didn't use it that day?).=20=   The building can certainly use plenty of 32' tone. Even the pedal 16's=20=   were very weak. It wasn't until the communion when the organist played=20=   the "Pri=E8re =E0 Notre Dame" of Bo=EBllmann that I discovered the organ = had=20 at least one celeste! I saw the console - it was extremely complicated=20=   with the free combinations system that German organs have. It is=20 probably another case of quantity versus quality.