PipeChat Digest #3371 - Saturday, January 11, 2003
 
Naff Hymnals!!
  by <EchoGamba@aol.com>
Re: Thank you
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
A+M R
  by <EchoGamba@aol.com>
Christmas disappeared...
  by "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net>
Funerals
  by <Kzimmer0817@aol.com>
Re: Christmas disappeared...
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Austria
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
Re: Funerals
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Christmas disappeared...
  by "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@whitlock.org>
Re: Thank you (Computer Theatre Organ sounds)
  by "Bruce Miles" <bruce@gbmuk.fsnet.co.uk>
February 2 and 5; was: Christmas disappeared...
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Re: Austria
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
H. Balfour Gardiner: Evening Hymn
  by "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com>
OFF-TOPIC: theology (grin)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: OFF-TOPIC: theology (grin)
  by "Andrew Caskie" <caskie@totalise.co.uk>
ALL READ!! Re: OFF-TOPIC: theology (grin)
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
 

(back) Subject: Naff Hymnals!! From: <EchoGamba@aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 06:05:58 EST     --part1_10.2b103cba.2b515496_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Dear all,   We have for the past two or three years been using 'Celebration Hymnal for =   Everyone' as our regular hymn book at church. If there are any fans of = this hymnal, then please forgive me, but I find this book hugely frustrating!! = I simply cannot understand why hymn 64 should be next to 788 (this is just = an example, without having the book in front of me I cannot give exact = numbers) and why certain harmonisation's are said to be by, for example, Bach, but differ completely from any other hymnal, old or new. This is not to = mention some of the abysmal modern hymns that appear. How some of these modern = hymn writers get published I will never know!! This frustration has led me to dust down my faithful copy of Hymns Ancient & Modern Revised. Happy memories!!   Hymn 418: Jesu, gentlest Saviour. What a beautiful tune. = 'Eucharisticus'. The diminished 7th chord in the 6th bar is particularly effective if the tenor line is brought out on the swell using a gentle reed such as an oboe = or clarinet. Spine tingling!!   Hymn 184: Dear Lord and Father; 'Repton'. A beautiful arrangement of = this famous and well used hymn. Another spine tingler.   Hymn 271: God is working his purpose out. 'Benson'. Another beautifully =   harmonised tune that has me in goose pimples.   These are to name but a few. I would bore you to tears if I were to list = all the lovely's!! How I wish we could revert back to using this great hymn = book on a regular basis.   Just a thought as I sip my morning tea.   Paul. EchoGamba@AOL.com     --part1_10.2b103cba.2b515496_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT" = FACE=3D"Comic Sans MS" LANG=3D"0">Dear all,<BR> <BR> We have for the past two or three years been using 'Celebration Hymnal for = Everyone' as our regular hymn book at church.&nbsp; If there are any fans = of this hymnal, then please forgive me, but I find this book hugely = frustrating!!&nbsp; I simply cannot understand why hymn 64 should be next = to 788 (this is just an example, without having the book in front of me I = cannot give exact numbers) and why certain harmonisation's are said to be = by, for example, Bach, but differ completely from any other hymnal, old or = new.&nbsp; This is not to mention some of the abysmal modern hymns that = appear.&nbsp; How some of these modern hymn writers get published I will = never know!!&nbsp; This frustration has led me to dust down my faithful = copy of Hymns Ancient &amp; Modern Revised.&nbsp; Happy memories!!<BR> <BR> Hymn 418:&nbsp; Jesu, gentlest Saviour.&nbsp; What a beautiful tune.&nbsp; = 'Eucharisticus'.&nbsp; The diminished 7th chord in the 6th bar is = particularly effective if the tenor line is brought out on the swell using = a gentle reed such as an oboe or clarinet.&nbsp; Spine tingling!!<BR> <BR> Hymn 184:&nbsp; Dear Lord and Father;&nbsp; 'Repton'.&nbsp; A beautiful = arrangement of this famous and well used hymn.&nbsp; Another spine = tingler.<BR> <BR> Hymn 271:&nbsp; God is working his purpose out.&nbsp; 'Benson'.&nbsp; = Another beautifully harmonised tune that has me in goose pimples.<BR> <BR> These are to name but a few.&nbsp; I would bore you to tears if I were to = list all the lovely's!!&nbsp; How I wish we could revert back to using = this great hymn book on a regular basis.<BR> <BR> Just a thought as I sip my morning tea.<BR> <BR> Paul. <BR> EchoGamba@AOL.com<BR> <BR> </FONT></HTML> --part1_10.2b103cba.2b515496_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Thank you From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 05:15:21 -0600   At 1:17 AM -0400 01/11/03, danielwh1 wrote: >ps. > is there any way of when I use midi files on my pc to be able to = install >what ever it is to get more realistic Pipe Organ , theatre Organ sounds. = I >would like to install this in my sound properties if at all possible   Daniel   For those questions you might want to join the EORG-L list. Actually, there is a discussion about Sound Fonts and computers going on right now on that list. *********************************************************************** EORG-L: A discussion List for electronic organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.gulfcst.com/eorg-l List: mailto:eorg-l@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:EORG-LAdmin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:EORG-L-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest Subscribe: <mailto:EORG-L-digest@pipechat.org> ************************************************************************   David  
(back) Subject: A+M R From: <EchoGamba@aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 06:26:23 EST     --part1_1bb.c2aca4e.2b51595f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Hello again,   Following on from my previous email regarding Hymns Ancient & Modern, I stumbled over this interesting little web site. Some of you may find it interesting.   http://www.geocities.com/deblauwewilg/   Paul EchoGamba@AOL.com   --part1_1bb.c2aca4e.2b51595f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT" = FACE=3D"Comic Sans MS" LANG=3D"0">Hello again,<BR> <BR> Following on from my previous email regarding Hymns Ancient &amp; Modern, = I stumbled over this interesting little web site.&nbsp; Some of you may = find it interesting.<BR> <BR> http://www.geocities.com/deblauwewilg/<BR> <BR> Paul<BR> EchoGamba@AOL.com</FONT></HTML>   --part1_1bb.c2aca4e.2b51595f_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Christmas disappeared... From: "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 06:53:40 -0500   Guess we're not unique, but the folks in charge decided the Christmas Eve theme would be The Three Kings. I swear, one of these years they're going to say "We have this great idea for Christmas Eve, we're going to color eggs and hide them around the church." The Sunday after Christmas, we sang "Victory In Jesus", and the service elements were renamed: The Pre-Game (Prelude) Half-Time (Offertory). Words From The Coach (Scripture.) You guessed it, Football Sunday. No Christmas music. The first spoken words in the service were, essentially: "Christmas is over, the crumpled wrapping paper has been thrown away." Mind you, it was only December 28, ..."on the Fourth Day of Christmas, my true love gave to me". What happened to Christmas as a season? I'm in a UM church, I guess that's the problem. But I think it's dichotomous that the clergy exhorts the congregation to reject our common culture, yet they succumb to it blatantly by having a department store mentality about Christmas. When it's over, sell off the junk and get it the heck outa here. Sorry to rant.   Chuck Peery Cincinnati    
(back) Subject: Funerals From: <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 09:11:17 EST     --part1_da.21ef229b.2b518005_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Bud said,   > it's my understanding of the teaching that NOBODY is in heaven at this > moment except Jesus, Mary, the Apostles, and the other Martyrs and = Saints, > nor will they be, until the Last Day following the General Judgment.   Isn't there a scripture that says - speaking to the Christian - "to be = absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"?   I've never seen anything in scripture that singles out Mary, the Apostles, =   and other certain Saints as being present in Heaven while others are in = limbo until then.   Theological discussions can be interesting, but they can develop into an unhealthy battle as well. If a discussion such as this can be based = totally upon Scripture - and what we think it means - and interpreted in light of other Scripture, then we can all be, at least, on the same playing field. =   There are a lot of church traditions and beliefs that are not backed up by =   scripture.   Anyway, have a good weekend.   Keith   --part1_da.21ef229b.2b518005_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Bud said,<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">it's my = understanding of the teaching that NOBODY is in heaven at this moment = except Jesus, Mary, the Apostles, and the other Martyrs and Saints, nor = will they be, until the Last Day following the General = Judgment.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> Isn't there a scripture that says - speaking to the Christian - "to be = absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"? <BR> <BR> I've never seen anything in scripture that singles out Mary, the Apostles, = and other certain Saints as being present in Heaven while others are in = limbo until then.<BR> <BR> Theological discussions can be interesting, but they can develop into an = unhealthy battle as well.&nbsp; If a discussion such as this can be based = totally upon Scripture - and what we think it means - and interpreted in = light of other Scripture, then we can all be, at least, on the same = playing field.&nbsp; There are a lot of church traditions and beliefs that = are not backed up by scripture.<BR> <BR> Anyway, have a good weekend.<BR> <BR> Keith</FONT></HTML>   --part1_da.21ef229b.2b518005_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Christmas disappeared... From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 10:07:03 -0500   On 1/11/03 6:53 AM, "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net> wrote:   > But I think it's > dichotomous that the clergy exhorts the congregation to reject our > common culture, yet they succumb to it blatantly by having a department > store mentality about Christmas. When it's over, sell off the junk and > get it the heck outa here. Sorry to rant.   Chuck: I'm with you, and have been for 55+ years.   This year we we have a special opportunity. The 40-day "really full Christmas" season ends on the day of the Infant's presentation in the Temple, as the firstborn male to Mary and Joseph, and Mary's Purification. That's 2 February, which this year, unusually, lands on a Sunday. = Whatever you can maintain of Christmas, musically, decorationally, or whatever, can get its swan song on 2 Feb., and the preacher can point out that THIS, finally, is really the end of Christmas. See the (Episcopal) Book of Occasional Services for lots more fun ideas. You have three weeks to get ready.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Austria From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 10:07:00 -0500   Dear Colin, To cover on topic, I did hear the organ in the Karlskirche in Vienna and it sounded wonderful in that acoustical environment.I was not as impressed with the one in the Stephendom. The organ in the = Augustinerkirche where the Hapsburg's hearts are kept was small but effective. I know that many injustices were carried out during the reign of the Hapsburgs, Spilberk (spelling) being a good example. Fortunately, much = good was accomplished despite the many linguistic and nationalistic = limitations. As you study the region, you begin to realize the herculean task FJ had keeping the whole thing together. The truth was it had an unbelievable culture, full of much freedom and light more on the tradition of the = better side of the Germanic nature than the Northern German ingrained belief that "arbeit ist der ziel vor lieben" ."Work is the object of life." The = Northern Germans used to laugh at the Austrians. An acquaintance of mine from that area told me one day that "If there is construction in Germany you will = see 5 machines and two Germans working. In Austria, you will see ten Austrians and no machine. He thought that hilarious. That's their mentality. As you can see, I have a extreme fondness for Austria and the people there. It was probably the first dominion with a federation at its core. = If WWI had not transpired, it would probably be still intact and been a constitutional monarchy. If it had stayed intact, WWII would not have happened. Of course, if our President Wilson was more pragmatic and kept = his 14 points to himself, maybe WWII would never have had a chance to start. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 7:58 PM Subject: Re: Austria     Hello,   That is absolutely fascinating Paul....wow!   The Austro-Hungarian Empire was quite something culturally. I recall a visit to Jugoslavia (as it was)and seeing all the wonderful artefacts which owed so much to the A-H empire; including a beautiful twin organ case in the West Gallery of Lublijana Cathedral.   My brother goes quite a lot to Slovakia and the Czech Republic......again, a big A-H influence sems to be there.   How little we know of what is Central Europe....even those who live in Europe. Central Europe is Europe as it was, and much remains to be seen/discovered by us organophiles.   Almost as bizzare as owning a royal sword, I know a lady who was hairdresser to the wife of Sir William Walton and lived in their villa in Capri for some years. I bet she could tell a tale or two; except that she is so discreet, she flatly refuses to discuss life with the Waltons.   I confess to being almost totally ignorant about Central and Eastern European repertoire for the organ, save for a few bits and pieces.   However, I can possibly tell Thomas Mohr something of interest concerning musical clocks (Haydn/Mozart connection of course). Apparently, they were made by one Fr Primitivus Niamiche who hailed, I believe from Eastern Europe (Poland?) Trouble is, I cannot recall how I know this!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK       --- Paul Valtos <chercapa@enter.net> wrote: > Dear Colin and Thomas in turn, > My family ,(both sides) comes from Austria > Hungary when the Emperor > Franz Josef was still in charge.   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Re: Funerals From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 10:20:34 -0500   > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not = understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.   --B_3125125234_1897661 Content-type: text/plain; charset=3D"ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable   On 1/11/03 9:11 AM, "Kzimmer0817@aol.com" <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> wrote (quoting Bud?):   > NOBODY is in heaven at this moment except Jesus, Mary, the Apostles, and = =3D the > other Martyrs and Saints, nor will they be, until the Last Day   Keith, I think it helps to remember that =3DB3in heaven=3DB2 there is no = =3DB3at this moment,=3DB2 nor does the word =3DB3until=3DB2 have any meaning. THAT = life is unlike the present one in that it is a life without space and without time.   Alan   --B_3125125234_1897661 Content-type: text/html; charset=3D"ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: Funerals</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <FONT FACE=3D3D"Times New Roman">On 1/11/03 9:11 AM, = &quot;Kzimmer0817@aol.com&=3D quot; &lt;Kzimmer0817@aol.com&gt; wrote (quoting Bud?):<BR> <BR> </FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D3D"Arial">NOBODY is in heaven at this = moment ex=3D cept Jesus, Mary, the Apostles, and the other Martyrs and Saints, nor will = t=3D hey be, until the Last Day <BR> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D3D"Times New Roman"><BR> Keith, I think it helps to remember that &#8220;in heaven&#8221; there is = n=3D o &#8220;at this moment,&#8221; nor does the word &#8220;until&#8221; have = a=3D ny meaning. &nbsp;THAT life is unlike the present one in that it is a life = w=3D ithout space and without time.<BR> <BR> Alan</FONT> </BODY> </HTML>     --B_3125125234_1897661--    
(back) Subject: Re: Christmas disappeared... From: "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@whitlock.org> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 10:23:49 -0500   > That's 2 February, which this year, unusually, lands on a Sunday. = Whatever > you can maintain of Christmas, musically, decorationally, or whatever, = can > get its swan song on 2 Feb., and the preacher can point out that THIS, > finally, is really the end of Christmas. See the (Episcopal) Book of > Occasional Services for lots more fun ideas. You have three weeks to = get > ready.   You mean I didn't have to take down our tree yesterday? ::ducking::   TommyLee    
(back) Subject: Re: Thank you (Computer Theatre Organ sounds) From: "Bruce Miles" <bruce@gbmuk.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 15:51:01 -0000   Daniel,   re your ps - see my website. Mail me privately if you have any problems. There are other classical organ sounds available (Jeux, Pfeifenorgel, Hauptwerk are some) but SFAIK no other decent Theatre Organ sounds.   Bruce Miles   website - http://www.gbmuk.fsnet.co.uk/index.html       ----- Original Message ----- From: "danielwh1" <danielwh1@ns.sympatico.ca> Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 5:17 AM Subject: Thank you     snip > ps. > is there any way of when I use midi files on my pc to be able to = install > what ever it is to get more realistic Pipe Organ , theatre Organ sounds. = I > would like to install this in my sound properties if at all possible > thank you > Daniel > 2000 E.P. Biggs Fellow >    
(back) Subject: February 2 and 5; was: Christmas disappeared... From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 09:55:52 -0600   And while you are celebrating Candlemas, you can play "Deo Gracias" in celebration of February 5, St. Agatha's feast day. I strongly suspected/smelled the absence of any provenance in St. A's "fight song", i.e., that someone would put words to that old English ballad honoring a Sicilian saint.   Inasmuch as there are very few churches in the US named after her, my question is mainly directed over the big pond. Are there any other songs/hymns honoring St. Agatha over there?   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com          
(back) Subject: Re: Austria From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 10:57:03 -0500   On 1/11/03 10:07 AM, "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> wrote:   > I was not as impressed with the one in the Stephendom.   Paul:   Which one, and when? I think it was Pentecost 1993 when I was there; the fellow at the reception desk said that the big organ in the west gallery = was no longer functional. But there was a fine free-standing tracker, perhaps 40-50 ranks or so, on the nave floor, against the south wall, close to the sanctuary. I thought it sounded fine.   Current state of affairs unknown to me.   Alan    
(back) Subject: H. Balfour Gardiner: Evening Hymn From: "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 08:34:49 -0800 (PST)   --0-1455959571-1042302889=3D:80148 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii     flcg1018@mails.fju.edu.tw wrote: Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 00:33:20 +0800 (CST) From: To: Morton Belcher   Subject: H. Balfour Gardiner: Evening Hymn       ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:56:05 +0800 (CST) From: flcg1018@mails.fju.edu.tw To: piporg-l@listserv.albany.edu Cc: anglican-music@list.stsams.org, pipechat@pipechat.org, organchat@yahoogroups.com Subject: H. Balfour Gardiner: Evening Hymn     Would some kind soul tell me when the following work was written:   Gardiner, H[enry] Balfour. Evening Hymn.     I cannot find it listed in the library catalog of either the Library of Congress, the Eastman School of Music, the Westminster Choir College, or the Yale School of Sacred Music.   Furthermore, this piece is not listed in the Bagaduce Music Lending = Library.     My second question: What library does have a good collection of sacred anthems that are listed in their library's on-line catalog that the sincere, inquiring internet user can consult?     Many thanks in advance.     Best wishes to all.       Morton Belcher fellow list member....             --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1455959571-1042302889=3D:80148 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii   <P>&nbsp; <P>&nbsp;<B><I>flcg1018@mails.fju.edu.tw</I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: = #1010ff 2px solid"> <P>Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 00:33:20 +0800 (CST)<BR>From: = <FLCG1018@MAILS.FJU.EDU.TW><BR>To: Morton Belcher = <LITTLEBAYUS@YAHOO.COM><BR>Subject: H. Balfour Gardiner: Evening Hymn = <BR><BR><BR><BR>---------- Forwarded message ----------<BR>Date: Sat, 11 = Jan 2003 22:56:05 +0800 (CST)<BR>From: flcg1018@mails.fju.edu.tw<BR>To: = piporg-l@listserv.albany.edu<BR>Cc: anglican-music@list.stsams.org, = pipechat@pipechat.org,<BR>organchat@yahoogroups.com<BR>Subject: H. Balfour = Gardiner: Evening Hymn<BR><BR><BR>Would some kind soul tell me when the = following work was written:<BR><BR>Gardiner, H[enry] Balfour. Evening = Hymn.<BR><BR><BR>I cannot find it listed in the library catalog of either = the Library of<BR>Congress, the Eastman School of Music, the Westminster = Choir College, or<BR>the Yale School of Sacred Music.<BR><BR>Furthermore, = this piece is not listed in the Bagaduce Music Lending Library.</P> <P><BR>My second question: What library does have a good collection of = sacred<BR>anthems that are listed in their library's on-line catalog that = the<BR>sincere, inquiring internet user can consult?<BR><BR><BR>Many = thanks in advance.<BR><BR><BR>Best wishes to all.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Morton = Belcher<BR>fellow list member....<BR><BR><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE><p><br><hr = size=3D1>Do you Yahoo!?<br> <a = href=3D"http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com">Yahoo!= Mail Plus</a> - Powerful. Affordable. <a = href=3D"http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com">Sign = up now</a> --0-1455959571-1042302889=3D:80148--  
(back) Subject: OFF-TOPIC: theology (grin) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 07:59:17 -0800   Bud said,   it's my understanding of the teaching that NOBODY is in heaven at this moment except Jesus, Mary, the Apostles, and the other Martyrs and Saints, nor will they be, until the Last Day following the General Judgment.       Isn't there a scripture that says - speaking to the Christian - "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"?   I've never seen anything in scripture that singles out Mary, the Apostles, and other certain Saints as being present in Heaven while others are in limbo until then.   Theological discussions can be interesting, but they can develop into an unhealthy battle as well. If a discussion such as this can be based totally upon Scripture - and what we think it means - and interpreted in light of other Scripture, then we can all be, at least, on the same playing field. There are a lot of church traditions and beliefs that are not backed up by scripture.   Anyway, have a good weekend.   Keith       Bud responds:   Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Eastern Orthodox theology rests upon what's called the "three-legged stool": Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. To understand THAT, it's necessary to define Tradition, capital "T": "that which has been believed at all times and in all places by faithful orthodox catholic Christians" ... in practice, it usually means that the Church Fathers and Doctors are in agreement about something, along with the UNDIVIDED Ecumenical Councils (up to A.D. 1000).   One theologian opined that "nothing can be proved from Scripture without Tradition, and vice versa."   We had a similar discussion over on Anglican-Music recently ... the Reformation brought a new view of Scripture to the table: what is canon is to be believed; what is NOT canon is NOT to be believed. That was not true formerly. For instance, the Didache (c. 100 A.D.), our earliest source of the eucharistic liturgy, was almost included in the canon of Scripture. It wasn't, for various reasons; but that in no way invalidates its teaching about the Eucharist. The teachings of the Fathers aren't in the canon; that doesn't invalidate WHAT they teach.   The Church Expectant / Purgatory / Paradise isn't limbo; limbo was a medieval way of accounting for unbaptized souls. The DEFINITION of limbo varies, but it's usually taken to mean somewhat the same as Paradise: the preternatural joys of an unfallen world, but without the Beatific Vision.   The DEFINITION of a canonized saint is one who, by reason of heroic virtue or martyrdom for the Faith, HAS been taken directly into heaven. I simply chose the most obvious examples. The "cloud of witnesses" in white robes is innumerable, obviously ... we celebrate the unknown ones on All Saints' Day ... "and some there be which have no memorial".   Finally, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" doesn't predicate any sort of TIMETABLE for that event ... "a thousand ages in thy sight are as an evening gone".   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC: theology (grin) From: "Andrew Caskie" <caskie@totalise.co.uk> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 17:05:10 -0000       On 11 Jan 2003 at 7:59, quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote:   > Bud responds:   > Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Eastern Orthodox theology rests upon > what's called the "three-legged stool": Scripture, Tradition, and > Reason.   Hence the reason why some of us are Presbyterian! :o)   AC  
(back) Subject: ALL READ!! Re: OFF-TOPIC: theology (grin) From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 11:25:06 -0600   Since this is so far off topic for this list I would like those of you how want to discuss it to take it to PRIVATE mail.   Every time we get into a discussion like this we get into "trouble" since there are all sorts of various views by various denominations. I don't want another "food fight"! <G>   Now back to Happy PIPEChatting!   David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org