PipeChat Digest #3804 - Thursday, July 10, 2003
 
Re: interviews and CATHOLICS WHO SING
  by "Philip Thibault" <pthibaul@maine.rr.com>
The Church of Rome hath erred (XIX Article of Religion) (grin)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: RC "cantors"
  by "Bill Morton" <wjmwjm@mail.asisna.com>
RE: Bread and breads
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Ordo Missae at St. Matthew's Anglican Catholic Church, Newport Beach CA
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Singing Catholic Bats?
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Re: RC "cantors"
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: RE pig stomach (was: OHS 2003, First Full Day - VERY LONG)
  by "MARAUDER" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
Re: Cantor
  by "MARAUDER" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
 

(back) Subject: Re: interviews and CATHOLICS WHO SING From: "Philip Thibault" <pthibaul@maine.rr.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:09:34 -0400     >> >> 1. The interviewers were insistent that the organist must be able 1) >> to sing solos and 2) sing into a microphone along with congregation for >> hymns. Is this common practice? The interviewers seemed to think that >> this is the only way to get the congregation to sing!   Well well---just a bit of insight from a standard issue Roman Catholic organist. I play in a nice RC church of about 600 families in Maine--in fact, I've been there 19 years! The congregation values the music beyond description (and PAYS incredibly well). Our choir director (who has been there 20 years) is one of the most adored figures of the church (just = after the BVM--blessed virgin Mary) and together, we have built a really nice program. We've installed an Organ Clearing House 1894 George Jardine = organ of 16 ranks and have a new Boston 6'4 grand. The idea of electronic instruments (and with it, electronic voice amplification of singers) died about 18 years ago with our Hammond. The microphone is seldom used--we = have great acoustics and adding electronic time instancy to acoustic time lag (creating two beats for the assembly) is recognized (we've educated them = in simple laws of physics) as the ONLY REASON CATHOLICS can't sing.     We sing--usually ALL verses of ALL hymns. There is no reason to believe that Catholics have to do that tacky thing of cutting a hymn short and leaving out half the meaning. They even stay until the last hymn is ended and are not allowed to escape (the good monseignor simply doesn't process down the aisle, and stares them down if they do).   I never sing unless I go to the choir for a capella stuff. So how then do = we do all that nice responsorial psalm stuff?   In addition to the choirs, (out of a congregation of 600 families, we have about ONE HUNDRED singers who perform 4 part standard choral music across three choirs--52 of our singers and their families just returned from a concert tour of Ireland) we have a cantor program. Each mass has a cantor who leads worship. Hymns are not announced, nor does the cantor destroy congregational singing with the microphone. The cantor stands. period. = The responsorial psalm is sung by the cantor using the microphone, repeated by the congregation, verses using mike, then when the congregation sings, the cantor steps back from the mike. At NO TIME does the cantor sing into the mike when the congregation is singing. ALL LEADERSHIP MUST come from ME, MOI, at the organ console. Call me egotistical, but it works.  
(back) Subject: The Church of Rome hath erred (XIX Article of Religion) (grin) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:14:24 -0700   I WELL-remember it. I was at Holy Rosary. We had the custom of the men and boys singing from the chancel during Advent and Lent, when the organ wasn't played.   I remember receiving some HORRIBLE little psalm-tone booklets from GIA with the English propers in them ... the men had to learn them before Mass Sunday morning, since they didn't arrive till Saturday.   The ORDINARY of the Mass was still in Latin, thankfully. As I recall, the Setting we sang that day was Viadana's "Missa l'hora passa."   We DID manage to maintain a full sung High Mass through the first cycle of changes, including a congregational Credo in English, and eventually Mass X of the Kyriale in English, which the congregation sang on ordinary Sundays ... the choir continued to sing polyphonic Masses (albeit in English) on Feast Days.   All THAT went out the window thanks to an Irish assistant who was put in charge of the liturgy, and I decamped for Old St. Mary's Cincinnati, where I spent eight blissfully happy years, until Msgr. Piepenbreier died and the Archdiocese did away with the Latin Solemn Mass THERE.   I have ABSOLUTELY *no* objection to congregational Sung Mass OR the use of the English language ... obviously ... I'm choirmaster and organist in an Anglican church (chuckle). What I OBJECT to is FORMIDABLE trash in the way of music and telephone-book English translations.   At one of the early workshops preparing for the transition, a priest got up and waved the new book in the air ... "this thing contains language I wouldn't use to address the BISHOP, *much less* GOD!"   "Authenticam Liturgiam" or "Liturgiam Authenticam" (whichever it is ... I can never remember) DOES propose to remedy some of most egregious errors ... one example comes to mind, in the Preface of the BVM (I think it is):   Latin (Novus Ordo) - beatissme et gloriossisme semper Virginis Mariae, Mater Dei ("blessed and glorious ever-virgin Mary, Mother of God")   English Sacramentary - "Mary." Period. Full stop. End of paragraph. None of the superlatives, none of the titles, NOTHING. THAT borders on HERESY.   Cheers,   Bud   Alan Freed wrote: > On 7/10/03 7:31 PM, "quilisma@socal.rr.com" <quilisma@socal.rr.com> = wrote: > > >>Granted, there are exceptions here and there, but American RC music was >>a blank slate on Advent Sunday 1964, and they BLEW it, BIG-TIME. >> > > I REMEMBER that Sunday. I went to mass at St. Jerome's, 138th St., The > Bronx. I KNEW what an important day it was; I just wish I could = remember > more about it, and had in my head the HISTORY of the previous few years = to > give it context. > > Alan > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >        
(back) Subject: Re: RC "cantors" From: "Bill Morton" <wjmwjm@mail.asisna.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:25:31 -0700   --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_24661841= =3D=3D_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"; format=3Dflowed   At 03:44 PM 7/10/2003 -0700, you wrote: ><snippage> > >"Ode to Joy" with MARIACHI interludes? > >I rest my case.       Bud --- surely you jest? If not, is a recording available? <g> --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_24661841= =3D=3D_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"us-ascii"   <html> <font size=3D3>At 03:44 PM 7/10/2003 -0700, you wrote:<br> <blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite>&lt;snippage&gt;<br><br> &quot;Ode to Joy&quot; with MARIACHI interludes?<br><br> I rest my case.</font></blockquote><br><br> <br> <font size=3D3>Bud --- surely you jest?&nbsp; If not, is a recording available? &lt;g&gt;</font></html>   --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_24661841= =3D=3D_.ALT--   --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]    
(back) Subject: RE: Bread and breads From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:24:54 -0500   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   --Boundary_(ID_DRAE18gicva3/QmzYtvllg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT   There are those who still believe in miracles (as the little child asked, "How did they fit HIM in there?").     Glenda Sutton   gksjd85@direcway.com     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of MARAUDER Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 2:19 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Bread and breads     Great! I think it takes more faith to believe that communion wafvers are bread than it does to believe that Jesus is present along with it.   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA           --Boundary_(ID_DRAE18gicva3/QmzYtvllg) Content-type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT   <html>   <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii">     <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)"> <title>Re: Bread and breads</title>   <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Footlight MT Light"; panose-1:2 4 6 2 6 3 10 2 3 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"Colonna MT"; panose-1:4 2 8 5 6 2 2 3 2 3;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} p.MsoEnvelopeReturn, li.MsoEnvelopeReturn, div.MsoEnvelopeReturn {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Footlight MT Light";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p.MsoAutoSig, li.MsoAutoSig, div.MsoAutoSig {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.EmailStyle18 {font-family:Arial; color:blue; font-weight:normal; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none none;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style>   </head>   <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>   <div class=3DSection1>   <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>There are those who still believe in miracles (as the little child asked, &#8220;How did they fit HIM in = there?&#8221;).</span></font></p>   <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>   <div>   <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Colonna = MT"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Colonna = MT";color:blue'>Glenda</span></font><font color=3Dblue face=3D"Colonna MT"><span style=3D'font-family:"Colonna = MT";color:blue'> Sutton</span></font></p>   <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Colonna = MT"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Colonna = MT";color:blue'>gksjd85@direcway.com</span></font></p>   </div>   <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>   <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original = Message-----<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On = Behalf Of </span></b>MARAUDER<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, July 10, = 2003 2:19 PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> PipeChat<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Bread and = breads</span></font></p>   <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>   <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Great! &nbsp;I think it takes more faith to believe that communion wafvers are bread than it does to believe that Jesus is = present along with it. &nbsp;<br> <br> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Karl E. Moyer<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Lancaster PA</span></font></p>   <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br> &nbsp;</span></font></p>   <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>   </div>   </body>   </html>   --Boundary_(ID_DRAE18gicva3/QmzYtvllg)--  
(back) Subject: Ordo Missae at St. Matthew's Anglican Catholic Church, Newport Beach CA From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:41:29 -0700   Solemn Mass at 10:30 a.m. (as of September; currently at 11 a.m.)   Voluntary - 5 minutes max; there's a choir warmup before Mass   Processional Hymn - ALL the verses, ALL the time - Episcopal Hymnal 1940 most of the time, or an insert from The English Hymnal (1933)   Introit - Gregorian, fauxbourdon, or one of Dr. Willan's (Lutheran) settings - choir, or chanter, if the choir's off   Setting - we sing three congregational Settings in rotation, all with the Scottish Chant Gloria: Merbecke, Willan (St. Mary Magdalene) and Mass IX of the Kyriale in English; we're SLOWLY moving toward choral Settings on Feast Days. I have made a congregational part for Oldroyd's Mass of the Quiet Hour (3rd Communion Service), but we don't use it very often.   Gradual - solemn Gregorian psalmody, fauxbourdon, or Dr. Willan - choir or chanter   Alleluia - ditto - seasonal Gregorian Alleluia melodies (about five)   Credo - recited   Offertory Verse - um, OK, I have a Father Rossini fetish (grin), but his settings of the Offertories (unison, 2-part, SATB, TTBB) are fun and accessible ... in particular the SAB ones I made out of the unison ones. They cover the Offertory action without delaying things or running short of music.   People are surprised when they see them ... they're decent music, and WELL-crafted for AVERAGE voices of LIMITED range ... I have a feeling these books weren't well-known AT ALL beyond the Pittsburgh Diocese where Fr. Rossini reigned and ruled (grin) ... I've NEVER encountered them in a Catholic choir-loft ANYWHERE.   Sursum corda and Preface - Gregorian, unaccompanied   Great Amen - Robinson, or Mass IX (melody of the first Kyrie)   Lord's Prayer - Gregorian, accompanied   Communion Verse - Gregorian, fauxbourdon, Willan, Rossini or GRIESBACHER, just for grins.   Motet - if there's a choir; otherwise the chanter chants the psalm associated with the Communion Verse; sometimes the choir chants the psalm with every other verse in fauxbourdon   Communion Hymn - as above   Kneeling Hymn - after the Blessing, while the clergy unvest and the acolytes put out the candles - Day By Day (Sumner) or God Be In My Head (Lytlington, I think it is).   Announcements   Recessional Hymn - I pick short ones; we have the "gotta empty the parking lot" syndrome, at least at the earlier Masses ... 7:30, 8:45, 10:30 (as of September) will be pretty TIGHT, since it takes us an hour and fifteen minutes typically, with NOTHING special going on, on account of the large number of communions; communion is given in both kinds separately.   Voluntary - usually an improv on the recessional hymn.   The choir is 4-3-3-3, all volunteer, except at Christmas, Holy Week and Easter, when we have a paid quartet of section leaders.   The organ is a 30-year-old Allen 301-C; new 3m Holtkamp due whenever the rector gets through sitting on the contract (hoping it'll hatch?).   The room seats 150; it has 2 1/2 - 3 seconds reverb when it's FULL; it would have more, but we couldn't discard the padded pews from the old church for $$$ reasons ... otherwise, all hard surfaces, sealed with 3 coats of epoxy resin paint.   Choir and organ are in a spacious west gallery. We have no choir room, so everything's up there ... library, rehearsal piano, etc.   Cheers,   Bud        
(back) Subject: Singing Catholic Bats? From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:38:48 -0500   What, Alan? You mean they sing by emitting high-pitched ultrasonic = squeaks?   FINALLY, a place for those high, screaming mixtures!!! ;>)   Dennis Steckley & A Six-Pack of Cats ----- Original Message ----- Well, first of all, Lutherans ARE catholics. They're just the ones who DO sing (and drink wine, etc.). There are some amazing examples otherwise, though: In downtown Minneapolis there is a huge Roman "basilica" where = they sing like bats out of purgatory, or something.   Alan        
(back) Subject: Re: RC "cantors" From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:43:22 -0700   Nope. I heard it with mine own ears, via Spanish-language TV (which was, BTW, the ONLY station that carried the consecration live).   Cheers,   Bud   Bill Morton wrote: > At 03:44 PM 7/10/2003 -0700, you wrote: > >> <snippage> >> >> "Ode to Joy" with MARIACHI interludes? >> >> I rest my case. > > > > > Bud --- surely you jest? If not, is a recording available? <g>        
(back) Subject: Re: RE pig stomach (was: OHS 2003, First Full Day - VERY LONG) From: "MARAUDER" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:22:01 -0400   > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not = understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.   --MS_Mac_OE_3140716922_16574268_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit   Dear Scott et al,   you ARE kidding, aren't you? The THOUGHT of that is absolutely = nauseating!   No, I'm completely serious. Wish I'd have had a chance to treat you = to a meal of pig stomach while you were at OHS.   If you use fatty meat such as certain sorts of ground beef, the stuffing becomes fairly fatty, too. But that all depends on what you use for stuffing.   Oh, and I forgot: my other also used bread crumbs as part of the stuffing, much as she did with chicken or turkey stuffing.   And while I'm here: let me say it in public: how wonderfully you = played on the OHS convention. You'll have a letter from me to that effect once I can get to yours. I've got 35 letters to write, each original. Bear with me. Yours will come, hopefully before the Lord does. :-)   Cordially,   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA     --MS_Mac_OE_3140716922_16574268_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: RE pig stomach (was: OHS 2003, First Full Day - VERY = LONG)</TITL=3D E> </HEAD> <BODY> <BLOCKQUOTE>Dear Scott et al,<BR> <FONT SIZE=3D3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D3D"Arial"><BR> you ARE kidding, aren't you? &nbsp;The THOUGHT of that is absolutely = nausea=3D ting!<BR> <BR> </FONT></FONT> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;No, I'm completely serious. &nbsp;Wish = I'd=3D have had a chance to treat you to a meal of pig stomach while you were at = O=3D HS. &nbsp;<BR> <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;If you use fatty meat such as certain sorts of ground beef, = th=3D e stuffing becomes fairly fatty, too. &nbsp;&nbsp;But that all depends on = wh=3D at you use for stuffing. &nbsp;<BR> <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Oh, and I forgot: &nbsp;my other also used bread crumbs as = par=3D t of the stuffing, much as she did with chicken or turkey stuffing. <BR> <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;And while I'm here: &nbsp;let me say it in public: = &nbsp=3D ;how wonderfully you played on the OHS convention. &nbsp;You'll have a = lette=3D r from me to that effect once I can get to yours. &nbsp;I've got 35 = letters =3D to write, each original. &nbsp;Bear with me. &nbsp;Yours will come, = hopefull=3D y before the Lord does. &nbsp;&nbsp;:-)<BR> <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Cordially,<BR> <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Karl E. Moyer<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Lancaster PA </BLOCKQUOTE> </BODY> </HTML>     --MS_Mac_OE_3140716922_16574268_MIME_Part--    
(back) Subject: Re: Cantor From: "MARAUDER" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:33:53 -0400   Lutheran cantors are perhaps different from many others. They don't necessarily sing in the manenr that Jewish or Roman Catholic cantors do, = but they plan/facilitate/lead the people's singing, often from the organ. The sense of this is that the people in the congregation are the most = important singing force in public worship. Paul Manz was "cantor" at Mt. Olive Lutheran Church, St. Paul MN, and David Cherwein now holds that title in that place. Lutheran Church of the Good Shepherd in Lancaster uses that title for her chief musician. John Ferguson is "cantor" to the student congregation at St. Olaf College. Etc., etc.   To my sense of the title, it implies total and comprehensive oversight and preferally also active involvement with the music in a given parish church or perhaps college community. It need not imply full-time employment, though if the parish is large, it almost requires that amount = of time. I coudl never accept the title, being involved in higher education and servie a church as timen and energy would permit; so I did not = qualify.   The Association of Lutheran Church Musicians has a fine publication by my old advisor at Eastman, The Rev. Dr.M. Alfred Bichsel, on the subject = and can be purchased from MorningStar, if I recall correctly. Dr. Bichsel traces the history of this term and practice from the earliest days of the Lutheran movement.   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA