PipeChat Digest #3815 - Tuesday, July 15, 2003
 
Re: Johannus Organs
  by "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com>
NYTimes Article on NYC POE
  by <DudelK@aol.com>
Re: Franklin Ashdown's "Requiem for the Challenger"
  by "Bonnie Beth Derby" <orge@dreamscape.com>
NYT URL Correction
  by <DudelK@aol.com>
In response to 20th century trumpet and organ music
  by "Jim Clouser" <CromorneCipher@hotmail.com>
Re: French liturgical music, 18th century
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: French liturgical music, 18th century
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Johannus Organs
  by "Jim Pitts" <wurlibird1@hot.rr.com>
Johannus, et al
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Johannus, et al
  by "Michael Franch" <mvfranch@hotmail.com>
Re: Johannus Organs
  by "D. Keith Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com>
RE: Johannus, et al
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
Re: French liturgical music, 18th century
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
NOTICIA! NOTICIA! ATTENDE! ATTENDE! AUDITE ET VENITE, OMNES POPULI!
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: French liturgical music, 18th century
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: French liturgical music, 18th century
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Johannus Organs From: "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 06:42:14 -0400   Chatters,   Commenting on the material quoted below, when I was looking for a practice instrument for home use I listened to the Johannus promotional CD and noted that there was something about the quality or coloration of the sound that I simply didn't like. (FWIW, my husband who plays a bit as a hobby independently came to the same conclusion, which I mention only insofar as it made our decision process about the Johannus easy.) I'm not really looking to start a debate on the relative merits of these types of instruments, at least not an acrimonious one. Also I know there are people who will say that to make such a judgment on the basis of a recording alone is insufficient. I'll just submit that while a recording certainly can't completely reproduce the sound of an actual instrument, there are qualities it *can* reproduce, and I found some of them to be not to my taste.   Incidentally, I would have had to travel for several hours to hear a Johannus, something I was willing to do had I been better impressed with the CD.   Emily A.   Subject: Organ at a Seminary in Florida From: "leora holcomb" <leh637@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 18:48:15 -0700 (PDT) If the organ does not sound good, contact the representative who needs to contact the tuner/voicer to see what is the trouble instead of complaining. From the factory, without proper setting up, any organ might not sound good. Apparently this organ needs some attention. Lee     On 7/12/03 10:43 PM, "Keys4bach@aol.com" <Keys4bach@aol.com> wrote: I live in Florida and they really dont sound that good. Especially the Orlando Seminary was a disappointment. thanks dale in Florida      
(back) Subject: NYTimes Article on NYC POE From: <DudelK@aol.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:55:36 EDT   There's a very nice piece on the NYC Pipe Organ Encounter at http://wwwnytimes.com/2003/07/14/arts/music/14ORGA.html.   There's also a great photo gallery of the event at www.nycago.org.   And a happy Bastille Day to all!    
(back) Subject: Re: Franklin Ashdown's "Requiem for the Challenger" From: "Bonnie Beth Derby" <orge@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:11:32 -0400   Greetings,   Franklin Ashdown's "Requiem for the Challenger" for Trumpet and Organ (1986) contains three movements, 1) "Of Daring and Valor"; 2) "Homage to the Unknown"; 3) "Flight and Repose" and is about 16 minutes in length. The recording Steve Best mentioned in an earlier posting is titled: "Contemporary American Organ Music" with organist Leonard Raver and Stephen Burns, trumpet - Classic Masters CD 1008. The CD was recorded on the Aeolian-Skinner in St. Paul's Chapel, Columbia University in August of 1987. This disc probably is out-of-print and a couple of good sources for finding it are Princeton Record Exchange, Princeton, New Jersey; and Berkshire Record Outlet, Lee, Massachusetts.   Franklin Ashdown is a physician who has written over 150 compositions. The "Requiem for the Challenger" is captivating and meaningful. Unlike Malcolm Wechsler, I have never heard this work in a live performance and would look forward to hearing it. I find the piece itself very powerful.   Best regards,   Bonnie Beth Derby orge@dreamscape.com Producer/Host: "Orgelwerke" & "Choral Traditions", WCNY-FM, Syracuse; WUNY-FM, Utica; WJNY-FM, Watertown, and live-on-the-web at www.wcny.org          
(back) Subject: NYT URL Correction From: <DudelK@aol.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:27:11 -0400   I should know better than to try to type on Monday morning. The url I sent before was lacking a period between www and nytimes. My profound apologies to all. The correct link is: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/14/arts/music/14ORGA.html   David Dingbat  
(back) Subject: In response to 20th century trumpet and organ music From: "Jim Clouser" <CromorneCipher@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:39:11 -0400   Thanks to all who responded to my post. I certainly have a lot of = listening to do! Any further suggestions will of course be appreciated and can be sent to me at: cromornecipher@hotmail.com.   Thanks again,   Jim Clouser Organ dept., Cleveland Institute of Music     --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 7/10/2003  
(back) Subject: Re: French liturgical music, 18th century From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:56:35 EDT   Hi Alan:   Pedro your cantor may be interested seeing and hearing examples of French organs all over France.   <A = HREF=3D"http://orgue.free.fr/paris.html">http://orgue.free.fr/paris.html</A= >   A google search on the Louis XIV's court at Versailles will reveal a picture of the replica organ Louis knew in the Chapel Royal there. It will play examples of each stop on the organ by clicking on the drawknobs. The temperment is meantone. It reveals what is lost in playing period French works on equal temperment instruments.   Good luck!   Pedro may stumble onto Versailles from the Paris list like I did. just copy and foreward this to him.   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: French liturgical music, 18th century From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:00:14 -0400   On 7/14/03 12:56 PM, "RonSeverin@aol.com" <RonSeverin@aol.com> wrote:   > Pedro may stumble onto Versailles from the Paris list > like I did. just copy and foreward this to him.   I am, of course, going to do that IMMEDIATELY. My immense gratitude to you.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Johannus Organs From: "Jim Pitts" <wurlibird1@hot.rr.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:43:10 -0700     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 3:42 AM Subject: Re: Johannus Organs     > Chatters, > > [snip] when I was looking for a practice > instrument for home use I listened to the Johannus promotional CD and noted > that there was something about the quality or coloration of the sound that I > simply didn't like. (FWIW, my husband who plays a bit as a hobby > independently came to the same conclusion, which I mention only insofar as > it made our decision process about the Johannus easy.) I'm not really > looking to start a debate on the relative merits of these types of > instruments, at least not an acrimonious one. <<   In the spirit of your disclaimer, Emily, I do not wish a debate on this topic, either. I will comment on promotional CD's as a means to judge organs. There are some good ones and some (most?) not so good as many factors enter into the recording which need not be enumerated here. Johannus is a product of the Netherlands and the factory voicers seem to favor a rather hard Germanic approach. Many of the demo CD's produced by Johannus feature this temperament and timber which, like you and your husband, I do not find tonally pleasing. It is good to know that factory voicing is temporary and the organ can be voiced into the circle of satisfaction for any organist not predisposed to condemn it merely for being digital and not pipes. I do not wish to debate this subject either as it has been flogged far too often with the same predictable results.   In conclusion, I think digital organ builders may do themselves a great disservice in relaying on recorded CD's to expose the tonal capabilities of their product. In the case of Johannus, I am rather certain of it when their organs will be compared on this continent with others that employ the more traditional American Classic tonal scheme. It is my understanding (but not yet confirmed) that Johannus recognizes this and is taking appropriate measures for organs shipped to the United States. I am not attempting to defend Johannus Organs against any personal preferences one may hold, but merely to point out that what one hears on a CD is not what one is ultimately are relegated to accept in the finished instrument. I have every confidence this is true among all major makes of digital organs manufactured today.   Best wishes, Jim Pitts          
(back) Subject: Johannus, et al From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:14:02 -0700   Perhaps they suffer from the same miscalculation as the "orphaned" Allen Cavaille-Coll concept organ. I think Allen learned the hard way what G. Donald Harrison knew a generation ago: he KNEW how to build C-C reeds; he DIDN'T build them for American churches because with very few exceptions, the BUILDINGS and the ACOUSTICS couldn't handle them.   Allen used unvarnished C-C samples ... from what specific organ I don't know ... and then plunked the C-C Concept Organ down in a typical acoustically dead convention center.   Hello! Folks, I'm here to tell you that C-C organs up close and personal (like at the console and/or in the gallery) sound like the hounds of hell in heat, for the most part, at least when you get the reeds going. They were VOICED to be heard DOWNSTAIRS, where the LISTENER would be, in a VAST, REVERBERANT nave.   Sure enough, the Allen sounded like a C-C, which is to say it sounded like hell if you were in the same ROOM (chuckle).   I won't debate the authenticity of the sound; I wonder if the same might be true of Johannus, though. What I hear coming out of Johannus organs bears little resemblance to a Schnitger or a Silbermann. I have less personal experience with THOSE organs up close, so maybe someone who DOES can tell us if they sound significantly different up close than they do down in the nave.   Moral to the story (if there is one): you can't DO C-C or Schnitger or Silbermann or whatever voicing for a living room, or a dead church. Doesn't work. No way no how. And that applies to PIPE organs as well, doesn't it? Wasn't that where the neo-baroque movement went astray in the U.S.?   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: Johannus, et al From: "Michael Franch" <mvfranch@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:37:29 -0500   (snip)   C-C organs up close and >personal (like at the console and/or in the gallery) sound like the hounds >of hell in heat,   (snip)   Listening to any organ in its chamber sounds much different than listening to it in it's acoustical space with the sound bouncing off everything from the seats to the walls to the fly (swat, crunch) flying around the room, whether the acoustial bounce is significant or not.   I once heard the voicing and tuning of Tuba reeds at the Austin factory. Okay, bad example, but this is the extreme. I think it incredible how voicers can voice pipes in the voicing rooms, with the general knowledge of how they will sounds in their space. Granted, they undergo final voicing in the space intended for, but still, that skill is an impressive artistic feat.   After leaving that room, and chasing down the hall for my eardrums, and begging for them to return to my ears for many more years of protected enjoyment, was I able to hear again.   I've never heard hounds in heat, but if they sounded anything like those Tubas, I'm surprised the species lasted this long...   I know, this had NOTHING to do with Johannus. Sorry. I guess I am responding to the "et al" part of the thread.   Mike Franch in Madison, WI   _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail    
(back) Subject: Re: Johannus Organs From: "D. Keith Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:11:55 -0700 (PDT)   I would like to make a further comment on recordings. Several years ago, someone played a recording of the new Hammond G-100 = which had been recorded in a large church with about 6 seconds = reverberation. It sounded for all the world like a big Aeolian-Skinner. When I finally got to play one, it sounded nothing remotely like the = recording. It's interesting that they made this model for only about two = years. The tonal quality (or lack of) went over like a lead balloon. Also several years ago, I was present in the church when a well known = organist recorded the Dupr=E9 "Stations Of The Cross" on a 115-rank = Aeolian-Skinner in an English Gothic Cathedral with about 6 seconds = reverberation. The sound was absolutely riveting. When the recording = came out, I was bitterly disappointed. It sounded like it had been = recorded on a telephone answering machine. As far as I am concerned, recordings are simply to listen to music, and = not to evaluate organs. To use a CD to evaluate an organ is absolutely = useless. D. Keith Morgan   Jim Pitts <wurlibird1@hot.rr.com> wrote:   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Emily Adams" To: "PipeChat"   Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 3:42 AM Subject: Re: Johannus Organs     > Chatters, > > [snip] when I was looking for a practice > instrument for home use I listened to the Johannus promotional CD and noted > that there was something about the quality or coloration of the sound = that I > simply didn't like. (FWIW, my husband who plays a bit as a hobby > independently came to the same conclusion, which I mention only insofar = as > it made our decision process about the Johannus easy.) I'm not really > looking to start a debate on the relative merits of these types of > instruments, at least not an acrimonious one. <<   In the spirit of your disclaimer, Emily, I do not wish a debate on this topic, either. I will comment on promotional CD's as a means to judge organs. There are some = good ones and some (most?) not so good as many factors enter into the recording = which need not be enumerated here. Johannus is a product of the Netherlands and the factory voicers seem to favor a rather hard Germanic approach. Many of the demo CD's produced by Johannus feature this temperament and timber which, like you and your husband, I do not find tonally pleasing. It is good to know that factory voicing is = temporary and the organ can be voiced into the circle of satisfaction for any organist not predisposed to condemn it merely for being digital and not pipes. I do not wish to debate this subject either as it has been flogged far too often with the same predictable results.   In conclusion, I think digital organ builders may do themselves a great disservice in relaying on recorded CD's to expose the tonal capabilities of their product. In the case of Johannus, I am rather certain of it when their organs will be compared on this = continent with others that employ the more traditional American Classic tonal scheme. It is my understanding (but not yet confirmed) that Johannus recognizes this and is taking appropriate measures for organs shipped to the United States. I am not attempting to defend Johannus = Organs against any personal preferences one may hold, but merely to point out that what one hears on a CD is not what one is ultimately are relegated to accept in the finished instrument. I have every confidence this is true among all major makes of digital organs = manufactured today.   Best wishes, Jim Pitts         "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org         --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!  
(back) Subject: RE: Johannus, et al From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:15:34 -0400   > Wasn't that where the neo-baroque movement went astray   not to mention the idea that if it ain't baroque, don't fix it :-|)      
(back) Subject: Re: French liturgical music, 18th century From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:38:14 -0500   Hi, Allan. Sorry, but I have no special competence in the field of French 18th c. liturgical music.   All best,     Randolph P. Runyon Professor of French Miami University Oxford, OH 45056 runyonr@muohio.edu      
(back) Subject: NOTICIA! NOTICIA! ATTENDE! ATTENDE! AUDITE ET VENITE, OMNES POPULI! From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:35:11 -0700   Y'all listen up, hear? (grin)   LIVE pipechat on IRC *tonight* at 9 p.m. U.S. Eastern Time.   How de doo it:   http://www.pipechat.org/irc.html   It ain't as hard as it looks (grin).   If you're on a PC and have trouble, e-mail my resident 'puter guru Burgie at   beejayusa@socal.rr.com   or call us at 714-840-6141 and he'll talk you through setting up mIRC.   Haven't a CLEW about MACS (grin) ... you'll have to e-mail Fearless Leader for MAC help.   david@blackiris.com   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: French liturgical music, 18th century From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:36:57 -0400   On 7/14/03 4:38 PM, "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> wrote:   > Hi, Allan. Sorry, but I have no special competence in the field of = French > 18th c. liturgical music. > That's OK, Randy. I can't expect you to know intimately EVERYTHING!   Alan      
(back) Subject: Re: French liturgical music, 18th century From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:42:51 -0700   Um, you WOULD ask about something that's THIRTY YEARS removed from my increasingly-absent mind, Alan (chuckle).   Sometime in the 1970s, when WLSM went bankrupt in Cincinnati, we backed a TRUCK up to the loading dock and hauled away virtually every piece of Latin choral music they had ... one price for the whole truckload.   In it were a FEW 17th and 18th century French Masses, but FAR MORE *motets* on the usual subjects ... the Marian Final Antiphons, O Salutaris and Tantum ergo, the Sunday and Marian Vesper Antiphons, etc. They were DREADFUL French editions with NO orchestra parts (what IS it with the French and their own baroque music??!!), but it was possible to reconstruct the parts from the keyboard reduction. Schola Cantorum Editions? That sounds right. Whoever got the "French Franchise" away from Presser could probably tell you.   We did a lot of them at Old St. Mary's in the 1970s, climaxing with the Charpentier Messe a 8 for two choirs and two orchestras on Easter Day one year. That, at least, is available in a modern scholarly edition from Oxford ... there SHOULD be a note in the cover that we gave the first U.S. performance (grin). As I recall we did a Charpentier Regina Coeli and a Bone Pastor, Panis Vere for the motets, probably Charpentier also.   There is a WONDERFUL Charpentier (?) Magnificat on a ground bass for (I think) ATB and strings ... we did it for Vespers of the Blessed Sacrament one year ... that's available also, in a modern edition from Germany, I think.   Then there's the Campra Requiem, of course ... I owned vocal scores of that, but when I ordered the orchestra parts on rental from France, when they arrived, they were UNREADABLE tattered photocopies. That was pre-Sibelius/Finale, or I would have re-engraved the thing myself. So we never got to perform the piece.   I recall the Early Music Dept. at the College-Conservatory of Music, University of Cincinnati, OH doing a performance of a Clerambault (?) oratorio or cantata on "The Woman Taken In Adultery", I think it was.   I'll probably think of more at 3 a.m. (grin).   Cheers,   Bud   Alan Freed wrote: > On 7/14/03 4:38 PM, "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> wrote: > > >>Hi, Allan. Sorry, but I have no special competence in the field of French >>18th c. liturgical music. >> > > That's OK, Randy. I can't expect you to know intimately EVERYTHING! > > Alan > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >