PipeChat Digest #3819 - Friday, July 18, 2003
 
For Want of a Hyphen - (Visiting the Simons)
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
Hard germanic voicing
  by "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com>
John's Aeolian Vox Humana
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Re: Impulse responses
  by "Steve Chandler" <stevec@open-tech.com>
Acoustics (was: Living with a Schnitger)
  by "Douglas A. Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com>
Re: Acoustics (was: Living with a Schnitger)
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
RE: Acoustics (was: Living with a Schnitger)
  by "R.E. Malone" <remalone@btinternet.com>
Re: Impulse response and acoustical tests
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Impulse response and acoustical tests
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
our regular irregular Thursday nite live chat on IRC
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Impulse response and acoustical tests
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Toccatas & Flourishes was: 20th century trumpet and organ music
  by "David Carter" <davidorganist2002@yahoo.com>
Re: Acoustics (was: Living with a Schnitger)
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: For Want of a Hyphen - (Visiting the Simons) From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 07:43:01 -0400   Dear Ones,   The eagle eye of Steve Lawson has pointed out that the URL I gave in my story about the Region 1 visit to the Simons, taking one to the picture and story on the Peabody Institute Continuo Organ, omitted a necessary hyphen in the address, the one between mander and organs. Sorry about that. The correct URL is:   http://www.mander-organs.com/html/peabody_institute.html   Thanks, Steve.   Malcolm Wechsler www.mander-organs.com      
(back) Subject: Hard germanic voicing From: "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:07:17 -0400   I fear that the hot air from Sebastian's sauna has found its way into postings on this list. I have adjusted my air conditioning accordingly.   David Baker    
(back) Subject: John's Aeolian Vox Humana From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:26:46 -0500   John--I saw your ebay listing for the Aeolian vox humana; aside from the fact that I have too much stuff, I didn't bid because: I know of two voxes within a couple of hours of me that are complete and not needing work that I could get for $150 each. By the time I paid shipping and had the work professionally done on the Aeolian, I'd be way ahead to get the local vox if I needed one.   That being said, I wish you well on the sale; I didn't realize it was your project when I saw those listings on ebay.   Dennis Steckley   Every gun that is made and every warship that is launched, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed--Dwight Eisenhower        
(back) Subject: Re: Impulse responses From: "Steve Chandler" <stevec@open-tech.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:58:23 -0500   > > >Andres wrote: > >It's said that >Silbermann threw his cane from the choir into the church nave and listened >to the hit- and made his conclusions at once. A legend perhaps, but it >circumscribes the point. Electronic hearing is mathematically exact. But >mathematically exact sound results "hurt" us precisely for our subjective, >unaccurate "natural" hearing. > > >Gregory wrote: >I once saw accousticians pop a huge balloon in the nave of a church to >measure the reverb etc...The Silbermann story may be true-wouldn't surprise me. > > >Sebastian wrote: > >The sauna is part of a rigorous regimen of physical fitness designed to >counteract the deliterious effects of constantly slamming my forehead against >pews to test for acoustical properties. > > Hi All,   Popping balloons or throwing a cane is an example of testing the impulse response. I've done the same just clapping my hands. The point of such an exercize is to test the decay time and frequency response of the reverberant soundfield. You can tell quite a bit with just your ear, so I would think measuring and dissecting an impulse response would be of questionable utility to pipe voicers. It's not like voicers think that a nick here will lead to a 3 dB reduction at 5 kHz, it doesn't work that way.   I've been told popping a balloon doesn't provide a sufficient impulse to really do the job and the preferred device is a starter pistol. Be sure to inform the church or hall of your plans lest someone call the police. Impulse responses can be very useful for other purposes. There are a number of companies that provide software for artificial reverbs using impulse responses (for more info google Altiverb, Acoustic Mirror and impulse response reverb). These are used in electronic music production and could be useful for those with digital organs. It's generally considered to be a smoother and more realistic artificial reverb that the typical digital or spring reverb.   That's probably more than most here ever wanted to know about impulse responses.   lurk mode = on   Steve Chandler http://www.mp3.com/stevechandler    
(back) Subject: Acoustics (was: Living with a Schnitger) From: "Douglas A. Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:09:23 -0400   Although the final sound of an instrument certainly depends on the talents and ear of the voicer, I don't think in this day and age that "dropping a cane" will really tell anyone what is going on with a room.   Perhaps back then, when churches were basically quite similar and of similar materials, a quick test of the reverb rate would be enough. I do not think that is the case today ( at least not in the US).   Starting about 150 years ago, US church design got away from the tall, high volume "cathedral" model and began experimenting with various "other" concepts. Akron Plan, Faux-Domes, curved ceilings, lower ceilings, more absorbent materials all have led to a much different approach to determining scales in organ construction.   Today with the advent of Spectrum Analysizers, Spectrographs and even PC based software Analysizers, an organbuilder can have a tool readily available to him BEFORE even "spec-ing" an organ to let him (or her) know if the room has any particular quirks. This can be a great advantage to the church committee, at the same time in affording them a view of what their room acoustics really are. This may be very helpful in assisting the committee "sell" changes ( like carpet removal) to the congregation.     If, for example, a spectrum analysis of a room revealed a "null" between 125 and 130 Hz and a "spike" between 1600 and 1899 Hz -- wouldn't this indicate a possible deviation in standard scale progression ?     Douglas A. Campbell Skaneateles, NY         On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:18:27 EDT Gfc234@aol.com writes: In a message dated 7/16/2003 1:06:16 PM Central Daylight Time, agun@telcel.net.ve writes:     Silbermann threw his cane from the choir into the church nave and listened to the hit- and made his conclusions at once. A legend perhaps,     I once saw accousticians pop a huge balloon in the nave of a church to measure the reverb etc...The Silbermann story may be true-wouldn't surprise me.   Gregory Ceurvorst  
(back) Subject: Re: Acoustics (was: Living with a Schnitger) From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:49:02 EDT   Hi Doug:   Reverberation was depended upon in the old churches, with correctly built pulpits to send the spoken word to all parts of a church building. It was free and the music benefited too. Now it did require that the speaker follow some simple rules of elocution: speak clearly, and with volume, and evenly cadenced and not too fast. The bowl shape above his head dispersed the sound evenly, and the raised position of the pulpit helped greatly. Sir Christopher Wren designed the dome of St. Paul's Cathedral, London to do just that spread the spoken word even farther in that vast space.   Well after the 20th Century began, people wanted to "CONTROL" that which is free for the taking, spend hundreds and thousands of dollars, or pounds to get it just right. 1. kill the acoustics and install one of those new fangled microphones and some loud speakers. Even Harvey Milktoast could be heard even if he whispered most of the time or was slovenly in his speach. Choral Music and organs haven't sounded right since. But, the right person with the right equipment has still to be found. Will we go back to the tried and true? Heavens no, Harvey Milktoast can be heard fine, and nothing else matters, does it? Orators are a thing of the past and so are their sermons. Well, you know how that affects music, especially the pipe organ, or a digital for that matter?   I rest my case.   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: RE: Acoustics (was: Living with a Schnitger) From: "R.E. Malone" <remalone@btinternet.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:18:52 +0100       -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Douglas A. Campbell Sent: 17 July 2003 18:09 To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Acoustics (was: Living with a Schnitger)   =93Although the final sound of an instrument certainly depends on the = talents and ear of the voicer, I don't think in this day and age that "dropping = a cane" will really tell anyone what is going on with a room.=94   All Douglas says is correct, you can know buy an audio system from = Meridian that has digital signal processors inbuilt, all you do is install it, connect a decent microphone, press a button and the system emits tones = from each loudspeaker measures the room response and adjusts accordingly.   When it comes to pipe organs, the same analysis can be done, but where = is the correlation to a rank of pipes? Has anyone ever measured the = difference between two identically voiced ranks of different scale in the same = space?   When the great French cathedrals were built there was no "maths", the builders learned from their mistakes, when G.D. Harrison finished the = Church of the Advent he reportedly sent the whole diapason chorus back two or = three times for rescaling. Again no rules.=20   Unless somebody starts a serious research project to define the "basics" = of how ranks of pipes behave in a group, in different "rooms" and puts it = down on paper for future organ builders, the skills will die.   The technology exists to do it, but would "Organ Builders" pool their knowledge for such a project? I seriously doubt it, much has already = been lost due to what has been "Fashionable" at the time and will continue to = do so.   The only known future is unfortunately "Silicone", I believe that the younger members of this list will see this happen.   Regards   Richard.=20 =A0      
(back) Subject: Re: Impulse response and acoustical tests From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:52:10 EDT   Most good organbuilders know what to do without oscilloscopes, pulse generators, and costly metering equipment. Most of the great instruments that we revere were designed without the benefit of elaborate scientific equipment, and provide a library of guidelines for future success. Organbuilders trust their ears, their years of experience, their judgement, and the test pipes they bring to the auditorium in question.   Sebastian M. Gluck Tonal Director Gluck New York Pipe Organ Restorers and Builders  
(back) Subject: Re: Impulse response and acoustical tests From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:29:46 -0700   What Sebastian said (grin) ... and may I add that the buildings in which those instruments stand, which we revere for their superb ACOUSTICS, were (by an large) built before acoustics became a SCIENCE (grin).   In churches and temples (at least) there is no substitute for hard stone, hard plaster, hardwood, bare floors, bare wooden seats, and suffient CUBIC VOLUME to allow the room to function as a natural amplifier/sustainer of sound.   My former parish, Old St. Mary's RC in Cincinnati, was built in 1841 ... hard plaster walls, CANVAS-over-plaster frescoed ceiling, hardwood floors, bare pews. It seated in excess of 1000 people. The ONLY "sound reinforcing equipment" was a reflective wooden sounding board over the pulpit. The reverb time was less than it should have been for the cubic volume, because of the canvas ceiling, but it was around 3 1/2 AUDIBLE seconds when the building was comfortably full; people standing in the aisles at Easter and Christmas DID cut into the reverb considerably.   Cheers,   Bud   TubaMagna@aol.com wrote: > Most good organbuilders know what to do without oscilloscopes, pulse > generators, and costly metering equipment. Most of the great instruments that we > revere were designed without the benefit of elaborate scientific equipment, and > provide a library of guidelines for future success. > Organbuilders trust their ears, their years of experience, their > judgement, and the test pipes they bring to the auditorium in question. > > Sebastian M. Gluck > Tonal Director > Gluck New York > Pipe Organ Restorers and Builders > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >        
(back) Subject: our regular irregular Thursday nite live chat on IRC From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:32:48 -0700   Y'all listen up, hear? (grin)   LIVE pipechat on IRC *tonight* at 9 p.m. U.S. Eastern Time.   How de doo it:   http://www.pipechat.org/irc.html   It ain't as hard as it looks (grin).   If you're on a PC and have trouble, e-mail my resident 'puter guru Burgie at   beejayusa@socal.rr.com   or call us at 714-840-6141 and he'll talk you through setting up mIRC.   Haven't a CLEW about MACS (grin) ... you'll have to e-mail Fearless Leader for MAC help.   david@blackiris.com   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: Impulse response and acoustical tests From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 19:54:17 -0500     ----- Original Message ----- From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 6:29 PM Subject: Re: Impulse response and acoustical tests     > The reverb time was less than it should have been for the cubic > volume, because of the canvas ceiling, but it was around 3 1/2 AUDIBLE > seconds when the building was comfortably full;   Canvas ceilings are generally bad news. I remember one eighteenth-century church with a canvas ceiling where the organ had a couple of 32' reeds and the ceiling used to reverberate with them ever so slightly off pitch. The result was what we used to describe as the "train wreck" effect.   John Speller    
(back) Subject: Toccatas & Flourishes was: 20th century trumpet and organ music From: "David Carter" <davidorganist2002@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:49:24 -0700 (PDT)   I remember attending (way too many years ago!) one of Richard Morris' Toccatas & Flourishes concerts, as a part of the "Community Concert" series. Great fun, added to my love of the organ.   David Carter In HOT Sacramento, where there is still no state budget in place.   --- DarrylbytheSea@aol.com wrote: > Hi, Y'all! <SNIP> > Richard Morris (now O-in-R at Spivey Hall) traveled for years with a trumpeter in > his "Toccatas and Flourishes" concerts. <SNIP>   __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Acoustics (was: Living with a Schnitger) From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:00:39 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   Legends come and go, but the one I like concerns an "incident" on a race track, when the Formula One World Champion suddenly slowed for no particular reason; or so it seemed.   Jackie Stewart, the driver, said afterwards, "I got a brief scent of freshly cut grass, and I knew someone had gone off the road!"   This, at 180mph????   Some people are very, very sensitive to certain things, and that illustrates the point.   The greatest voicers surely fall into that category?   Aural instinct coupled to craftsmanship and experience, can produce incredibly fine results without recourse to technology. I can think of numerous organ builders from the past who could perform miracles. Arthur Harrison could make ANY instrument sound musical in ANY room; though fashions have moved on, and his voicing genius is not appreciated fully these days.   Denys Thurlow, when at Nicholosons in the UK, could achieve the same thing.   In America, the master was, of course, Skinner. Then I think of Wurlitzer...the worst of all rooms, but fine sounding instruments which stand head and shoulders above the competition.   Interestingly, Willis III was hopeless!!   His organ in Sheffield City Hall, an acoustic nightmare, is as dull as dull can be.   I don't want to create unnecessary myths and legends, but I DO think that there are certain special people in history, and in the present day, who just KNOW what sounds will work in a room.   On a technical point, church buildings in the UK take many forms, from wooden Saxon churches to marble temples, and from Gothic soaring arches to humble village churches; the materials as diverse as stone, brick, wood, marble and concrete. Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- "Douglas A. Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com> wrote: > Although the final sound of an instrument certainly > depends on the > talents and ear of the voicer, I don't think in this > day and age that > "dropping a cane" will really tell anyone what is > going on with a room.     ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/