PipeChat Digest #3828 - Wednesday, July 23, 2003
 
Re: I QUIT! (x-posted)
  by "MusicMan" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk>
Re: Bud
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
Re: Church iniquities
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
RE: My "Last" Recital
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Out with the"old," in with the "new"
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
RE: I QUIT! (x-posted)
  by "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu>
RE: my resignation
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
Re: Bud
  by "Michael Franch" <mvfranch@hotmail.com>
RE: Church iniquities
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
RE: Bud
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
Re: my resignation
  by "V. David Barton" <vdbarton@erols.com>
Re: my resignation
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: my resignation
  by "STRAIGHT" <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net>
Re: Church iniquities
  by "STRAIGHT" <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net>
RE: Bud
  by "Mark & Cinda Towne" <mstowne@concentric.net>
Re: Church iniquities
  by "Kealypaul" <kealypaul@yahoo.com>
Holy Trinity Church, Sloane Street, London
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: Church iniquities
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: my resignation
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Bud
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
RE: Church iniquities
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
Re: Bud
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: Re: I QUIT! (x-posted) From: "MusicMan" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:17:52 +0100   Always sorry to hear when things do not run smoothly - in any church. Kind of makes you wonder about "their kind" of 'forgiving' Christianity - whatever their outlook on music and on their treatment of human beings might be. Best off out-of-it, I say.   However (and there's always a 'however') I can't believe what I'm seeing about the figures (cash) being mentioned.. ... if that's the 'fine' for not being there, what on earth is being paid for when you actually 'bother' to turn-up ?   'Hard-up' Harry [a.k.a. musicman]       -----Original Message----- From: Tom Hoehn <thoehn@theatreorgans.com> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: 22 July 2003 02:48 Subject: Re: I QUIT! (x-posted)       >Correct me if I'm wrong: The church can deduct as much as $550 per week if >you have a car wreck and can't make it to Evensong, Choir Practice and 2 >Sunday services. If you don't make that much in the course of a week you >could end up paying them during your absence     >> Your compensation (salary, housing allowance and insurance allowance) >> will be reduced 10% >> Your compensation will be reduced by $150 for each missed weekly >> rehearsal or either of the two Sunday services >> Your compensation will be reduced by $100 for each missed Tuesday Evensong      
(back) Subject: Re: Bud From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:33:04 -0700   >IMHO, Bud's resignation was ill advised, as it left him with no >leverage to negotiate, and may have also left him without any >possibility of unemployment insurance payments.   I learned that the hard way. I had a micro-manager that drove me up the wall. He was the cause of health problems still persisting to this day. I resigned and became totally ineligible for unemployment insurance. The next time I made sure THEY told me the position was gone, and I was able to collect.   Incidentally - both were theatre NFP organizations. The second job disappreared because they let volunteers do the work and then realized those people could do ALL the work. something to watch our for when employed by NFP organizations.   John V  
(back) Subject: Re: Church iniquities From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:41:20 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   The Holy Trinity saga says so much about the roots of the Anglican Church; the old-guard conservative party at prayer, making decisions behind closed vestry doors.   Interestingly, I am in complete empathy with John on the matter of class-teaching.......I hated it. On the other hand, I enjoy the "one to one" of keyboard teaching.   However, even that is not without its stresses. I recall one pupil who absolutely terrified the living daylights out of me. He was from Hong-Kong, rather shy, very withdrawn and totally self-immersed, but his one emotional expression was piano-playing. HE WENT FROM GRADE 3 TO GRADE 8 in just two terms!!!   Now, as someone who is not a brilliant pianist, but very much an organist with a harpsichord background, this stretched me to the limits because, having to think ahead, I was delving into un-charted territory and trying to stay ahead. To everyone's surprise, there I was thundering through Brahm's Rhapsodies of an evening, rather than playing trio sonatas.   I was very relieved when he moved on educationally, and I was let off the hook.   I absolutely detested my schooling and couldn't wait to leave. Brains and ability were measured by stop-watches....."My words, that was a good time. He MUST be Cambridge Blue material!"   I had terrible learning difficulties...something to do with being a subliminal thinker. I would stare blankly at books, read them through and couldn't remember a thing afterwards. Teachers would bully and batter me, other kids would laugh at my "stupidity" and I was a regular at the Head's office, but never as a disruptive influence. However, I was the one who could quote the same books chapter and verse a few weeks later!! Strange or what?   I am still like that, and when learning new repertoire, have about a dozen or more pieces as "work in progress"......sometimes up to a year before I am happy with the results.   What I needed was one-to-one teaching, which I eventually got.....but THAT, as they say, is a previous story!   I mention this because, in the whole business of education, there is considerable scope for "alternative" teaching methods; some of which may never have been properly explored.   Whether in church, in schools and other worthy institutions such as government, law and medicine, there is always a tendency to lose sight of the fact that people can be very different. When that happens, there is little scope for individuality or the creation of an imaginative alternative.   Perhaps we all feel threatened by things which turn the "norm" on its head, but then, the people who achieve the greatest things often do!!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- John Foss <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Dear list, > I have never previously told all of this particular > story   ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: RE: My "Last" Recital From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:31:33 -0500   Oh, my mouth is watering, and I wish I could be there. I love the Bonnet particularly. But you=92re just too far away, and I have court = all day the 4th (which is what I think used to be called my "name day" - no, that's not right, but it's the anniversary of my baptism - no, I am not really a witch, just act the part).   The recital will occur on the day which used to be my birthday when I celebrated them. My best wishes for a satisfying recital will be with you, but I know you'll wow them. Break any number of legs, as long as they are not your own.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of MARAUDER Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:22 PM To: pipechat; piporg-l; organchat Subject: My "Last" Recital   Dear On-line Friends,   =A0=A0=A0Seems that I played my "last" recital back in 1998 at the time = I retired from the public recital scene, but two events urged me out of "recital retirement": =A0=A0the OHS convention and the 20th annual = summer recital on that marvelous 1 - 10 w. pedal E. & G. G. Hook in Orwell VT, a series in which I played the first and second years and then also the tenth year, at which time I recorded there. =A0(Half of Raven label =A0OAR-290 "As the Dew From Heaven Distilling" is there; the other half = is at the 1859 Hook in North Easton, a marvelous instrument I assume we'll hear in OHS 2005 convention.) =A0The kindly Orwell folks issued an invitation I decided to take up to play the 20th sumemr recital as well, and it'll happen on the night of 3 August--and then I plan to slink back into "recital retirement" =A0and get on with several = research/publication projects. =A0   =20      
(back) Subject: Out with the"old," in with the "new" From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:04:20 EDT   Dear PipeChatters: What has happened to Bud is, unfortunately, commonplace. The worst part of it is that those doing the firing and/or "revamping" actually have a hidden agenda and may dispose of faithful servants for reasons other than those stated. We are used to this in the cut-throat world of business, and we tend to stick our heads in the sand when it comes to the way people are treated by religious instiutions. A great deal of evil is cloaked in words of faith, as they are easily used and rarely questioned. Clergy can pull such maneuvers upon their ascension to power, and unfortunately, organists can be guilty of similar tactics, firing choir members or organbuilders at the drop of a hat, on personal whim. I know of several professional choirs that live and sing in fear, with the threat of termination hanging over them. In one situation, the choirmaster frequently rehires them, acting as if he had done nothing destructive to them in the past. An organbuilding colleague was temporarily victimized when a interim rector was set up, firing all of the best people, from the sexton, who had lived on the grounds for decades, to the woman who was rumored to be the best church secretary around. The former organist, who had commissioned the organ under construction, was replaced by an organ fan (without auditioning). Without even meeting the organbuilder, this deeply evil and petty man fired the builder, and the organ was never finished. Fortunately, the organbuilder went on to build some fine organs, and the organ-player will be unknown. His one trophy will be the model of the new organ case, which was never returned to the organbuilder. Here in New York, if one doesn't have a contract, an organist/choirmaster is considered an "at will" employee, giving the church the power to terminate employment with or without cause. I don't know the rules in California. Asking the church for a contract can also get somebody fired, or never hired. This brings us back to some larger issues: people throwing out fine pipe organs and music programs because "there is nobody to play them"; churches willing to hire elementary school administrators to play the organ for a pittance (or even nothing, if they love the Lord enough); and the belief that the more a worship service looks like MTV, the more young people will come to services and give money. Although we are usually strengthened (after the initial shock and rage), and we learn some very valuable lessons that protect us in the future, it looks as though Bud can see the end of the rope, and will hopefully get the help and advice to pull himself back up.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City  
(back) Subject: RE: I QUIT! (x-posted) From: "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:29:25 -0500   Bud gave it to us. I used it to correspond with the rector.   -----Original Message----- From: Alan Freed [mailto:acfreed0904@earthlink.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 7:19 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: I QUIT! (x-posted)   On 7/22/03 9:05 PM, "ContraReed@aol.com" <ContraReed@aol.com> wrote:   > << Let's see how long it takes for them to remove your 'bio' on their > website. >> >=20 > As well as his picture. He's a very handsome man.   Yeah, but nobody gives the website address; I didn't even know they HAD one!   Alan   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: RE: my resignation From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:08:12 -0400   > Oh, no ... the dude that we'd hired to be my associate turned tail and ran back to the Methodists as fast as his legs would carry him.   As I would expect from anyone you had hired. Good for him! An organist who moves into a job when his predecessor has been treated as badly as you have been is a scab in my book.   Paul    
(back) Subject: Re: Bud From: "Michael Franch" <mvfranch@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:21:08 -0500   Not to play devil's advocate, but what would he sue them for? They offered him a proposal and he declined. The proposal, wether bad or good, implies that he still has a job, but at a lower wage.   And I do agree leaving in a snit is counter-productive. My guess is that the embers were burning much before the actual fire.   If Bud could give a short history as to where he thinks the transition started that would help. Was there a contract?   Unfortunately, a church is still a business and there is a 'boss' to answer to. If the boss doen't like what's going on, or thinks you're being paid too much, or had other reasons not to keep you, you go. Sad, but true. But he wan't fired. He was offered a proposal that he was sure to turn down. That's the way to get out of firing and the legal wranglings that go with it.   Mike Franch in Madiosn, WI     Should Bud decide to >"sue the bastards", I suggest that he see a lawyer (preferably one who is >also an organist or well-informed about church/state and First Amendment >issues) and be careful to avoid dragging issues of church "doctrine and/or >discipline" into the fray. > >Best wishes, >David Baker   _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963    
(back) Subject: RE: Church iniquities From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:29:40 -0400   John Foss writes:   > Some years ago (around 1969) I was appointed Organist and Choirmaster at Holy Trinity Church, Sloane Street, London. Described by John Betjeman as "Chelsea's noblest house of prayer", it is home to a fine 4 manual Walker organ and has a distinguished musical tradition.... the church still stands as a result of my opposition [to tearing it down].   And that is a fine thing!   I remember encountering it rather by random while walking around London probably thirty years ago. The doors were locked and I couldn't get in. Even though this might have been early evening, for some reason I concluded from this that it was a prot-palace. Had I known that the churchmanship was actually rather high, I would probably have tried to return later and have a peek inside. It's really a mighty and noble building... and quite an enviable place, in the abstract, to have served in.    
(back) Subject: RE: Bud From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:34:00 -0400   > Unfortunately, a church is still a business   Obviously: the website is in the .com domain, didn't you notice..    
(back) Subject: Re: my resignation From: "V. David Barton" <vdbarton@erols.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:47:31 -0400     > > Oh, no ... the dude that we'd hired to be my associate turned tail and > ran back to the Methodists as fast as his legs would carry him. > > As I would expect from anyone you had hired. Good for him! An organist who > moves into a job when his predecessor has been treated as badly as you have > been is a scab in my book.   And a first-class fool to boot! What they'll do *for* him, they'll eventually do *to* him!    
(back) Subject: Re: my resignation From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:56:54 -0400   On 7/23/03 10:08 AM, "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> wrote:   > An organist who moves into a job when his predecessor has been treated as > badly as you have been is a scab in my book.   Totally agreed, Paul. And he/she should be TREATED like one.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: my resignation From: "STRAIGHT" <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:57:38 -0400   <<<<<<< An organist who moves into a job when his predecessor has been treated as badly as you = have been is a scab in my book.>>>>>   Assuming said replacement knows the facts, "stupid" would be a more appropriate term.   Diane S.    
(back) Subject: Re: Church iniquities From: "STRAIGHT" <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:59:03 -0400   <<<<from this that it was a prot-palace.>>>>>   A "prot-palace"?   Diane S.  
(back) Subject: RE: Bud From: "Mark & Cinda Towne" <mstowne@concentric.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:57:46 -0700   Good morning...   He can't sue...he resigned and it was accepted. He has no recourse.   Regarding "at will" employment...here in Nevada, and I believe that it is because of the gaming industry here and the transient population, "at will" employment is the norm...I don't believe that California subscribes to that.   Perhaps Bud would consider leaving California and relocating in Nevada where the cost of living is substantially less.   Regards and best of luck,   Mark S. Towne, Las Vegas, NV Southern Nevada Chapter American Guild of Organists     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Michael Franch Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 7:21 AM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: Bud     Not to play devil's advocate, but what would he sue them for? They offered him a proposal and he declined. The proposal, wether bad or good, implies that he still has a job, but at a lower wage.   And I do agree leaving in a snit is counter-productive. My guess is that the embers were burning much before the actual fire.   If Bud could give a short history as to where he thinks the transition started that would help. Was there a contract?   Unfortunately, a church is still a business and there is a 'boss' to answer to. If the boss doen't like what's going on, or thinks you're being paid too much, or had other reasons not to keep you, you go. Sad, but true. But he wan't fired. He was offered a proposal that he was sure to turn down. That's the way to get out of firing and the legal wranglings that go with it.   Mike Franch in Madiosn, WI     Should Bud decide to >"sue the bastards", I suggest that he see a lawyer (preferably one who is >also an organist or well-informed about church/state and First Amendment >issues) and be careful to avoid dragging issues of church "doctrine and/or >discipline" into the fray. > >Best wishes, >David Baker   _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: Re: Church iniquities From: "Kealypaul" <kealypaul@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:08:37 -0700 (PDT)   CS Lewis preferred the one-on-one mentoring, and was sad to see the prevalence of classroom teaching.   Imagine spending quality time with such great minds as Lewis, or Colin Mitchell! The student can progress according to personal ability, rather than mass-production.   __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Holy Trinity Church, Sloane Street, London From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:16:46 -0400   Several years ago I was fortunate enough to be in on an organ crawl around three churches in the West London area. This was organized by Brian Styles of Cambridge, who had, if I remember correctly, had lessons on the Walker organ in Holy Trinity Church.   What I remember most about that day was the enormous bulging music case that Brian carried with him, and the fact that he gave us an impromptu recital on each of the three organs. It was really excellent to hear him play on organs that he apparently knows so well.   I cannot remember the other two churches that we visited, but I do remember the Holy Trinity Church as being a High Anglican church. I was impressed by the fact that Brian had brought the right sort of organ music to show off each of the organs.   This was one of Dee William's post Christmas trips to London that he did so well, - I wonder if anyone else remembers them?   Bob Conway    
(back) Subject: Re: Church iniquities From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:37:01 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   There are many things I AM.......but greatness does not spring to mind!   However, on a serious note, I feel sure that the truly excellent organ-builders of this world were mentored by the elder statesmen of their craft.   There is no substitute for experience and "craft", and that applies to lawyers as it does to organ-builders.   An amusing anecdote on the subject illustrates the point. My brother, in his student days, went to a steel works armed with all sorts of gadgets; of which the most important was a spectrometer. Looking at the molten metal, he suggested to the elderly foundryman that it was time to tap the metal, but the old man spat onto the surface and replied, "20 minutes more lad".   My brother checked his calibration and found it to be wrong, whilst the old guy just KNEW the temperature from the way the spittle danced across the surface of the smelt!   20 minutes later, the instrument and the old man's seasoned knowledge concurred and the metal was tapped off into the rolling presses.   But would any of us trust that approach in Nuclear reactors?   I'll stay with the geiger counters thank-you.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- Kealypaul <kealypaul@yahoo.com> wrote: > CS Lewis preferred the one-on-one mentoring, and was > sad to see the prevalence of classroom teaching. > > Imagine spending quality time with such great minds > as > Lewis, or Colin Mitchell!   ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: my resignation From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:46:54 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   I had a "senior moment" when I opened up my Yahoo e-mail page.   Forgetting for a moment about poor Bud's dillema....dilemma....dil....plight (how does one spell it?)....I saw nothing but a list of posts headed "I quit!" with different names against them.   For a moment, I thought we were looking at mass-action....or would that be, in-action?   I thought the organ world had gone mad!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- STRAIGHT <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> wrote: > <<<<<<< An organist who > moves into a job when his predecessor has been > treated as badly as you have > been is a scab in my book.>>>>>     ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Bud From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:06:00 -0700   Lay church workers are not eligible for unemployment OR State disability insurance. Churches may OPT into the programs, and we were negotiating to do that for all the lay-workers in next year's contracts, but St. Matthew's hadn't paid into either up until now.   Of COURSE I wouldn't have resigned if I could draw unemployment (chuckle).   Cheers,   Bud   John Vanderlee wrote: >> IMHO, Bud's resignation was ill advised, as it left him with no >> leverage to negotiate, and may have also left him without any >> possibility of unemployment insurance payments. > > > I learned that the hard way. I had a micro-manager that drove me up the > wall. He was the cause of health problems still persisting to this day. > I resigned and became totally ineligible for unemployment insurance. The > next time I made sure THEY told me the position was gone, and I was able > to collect. > > Incidentally - both were theatre NFP organizations. The second job > disappreared because they let volunteers do the work and then realized > those people could do ALL the work. something to watch our for when > employed by NFP organizations. > > John V > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >        
(back) Subject: RE: Church iniquities From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:02:38 -0400   >A "prot-palace"?   That is what my friends call a large Episcopal parish whose only services are on Sunday, and the main Sunday service is Morning Prayer with solemn high elevation of the alms basin :-)    
(back) Subject: Re: Bud From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:09:39 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   I don't know if employment law is the same across there as over here in the UK, but the law of contract is fairly internationally accepted.   It is quite "reasonable" (man on the Clapham Omnibus theory)for any party to give notice of "variation" to a contract or give notice that a contract is to be rescinded. The other party can then either accept that or not, as the case may be.   The alternative is to do what all bright people do...ask for clarifications, consultation periods...in fact anything which delays the process but still appears "reasonable".   The more legally techical your response, the more it wears down the other side, who may have to resort to legal advice at great cost.   You see, contract is all about negotiation, and once you say that you will not accept, the battle is lost.   Contract is about "consideration", and what is "fair and reasonable" which, under the circumstances, is quite laughable.   I would also expect that, even in the absence of a written contract, the accepted norm of "custom and practice" would apply. It is one of the three ways that a contract can be formed...written, verbal or custom & practice.   In law, there is also the expectation that people will be paid and teated in such a way that is "normal" within their chosen line of duty.   Unfair contract is when one side claims advantage over the other, "without due consideration" and this may well apply in Bud's case.   Where there is doubt, it is better to claim (certainly in the UK) "constructive dismissal" in employment, where terms have been notified which either make the job impossible or at a disadvantage to the employee.   Of course, once one gets to the point that the battle is almost lost, the trick is to go ill!!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK       Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- Michael Franch <mvfranch@hotmail.com> wrote: > Not to play devil's advocate, but what would he sue > them for? They offered > him a proposal and he declined   ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/