PipeChat Digest #3829 - Thursday, July 24, 2003
 
RE: Church iniquities
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
(no subject)
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Re: my resignation
  by "V. David Barton" <vdbarton@erols.com>
RE: Out with the"old," in with the "new"
  by "andrew meagher" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
RE: Bud
  by "andrew meagher" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
RE: Bud
  by "andrew meagher" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
RE: my resignation
  by "andrew meagher" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: BUD CLARK - a sympathizer
  by "james nerstheimer" <enigma1685@hotmail.com>
Re: I QUIT! (x-posted)
  by "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net>
A (semi-)decent farewell
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
RE: A (semi-)decent farewell
  by "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu>
Re: A (semi-)decent farewell
  by "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net>
RE: my resignation
  by "Travis L. Evans" <tevansmo@prodigy.net>
Re: A (semi-)decent farewell
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
moving day, IRC
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Bud, A more agressive approach
  by "bnorth" <bnorth@intergate.ca>
IRC
  by "Tyler Robertson" <brad_taylor32@hotmail.com>
Re: IRC
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Bud, A more agressive approach
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Church iniquities From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:20:11 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   Which reminds me of a funny story, when the large church with galleries all around had their Christmas service of "None lessons and carols".   This was a society church in the North of England, where even the sidesmen with the collection bags wore dress suits. (We loved to drop chewing-gum in them as choristers!!)   During the singing of "O little town of Bethlehem", one of the sidesmen in the gallery tripped over his shoe-lace and the large bag shot over the gallery into the nave below with a resounding crash.....the coins of the realm spewing all over the floor and running about the feet of the congregation   How a society church suddenly presented its true colours, as over-dressed worshippers (most of them woollen mill owners and their associates) abandoned "O little town" and scrambled around to grab the money!!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> wrote: > >A "prot-palace"? > > That is what my friends call a large Episcopal > parish whose only services > are on Sunday, and the main Sunday service is > Morning Prayer with solemn > high elevation of the alms basin :-)     ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:46:31 -0500     "And a first-class fool to boot! What they'll do *for* him, they'll eventually do *to* him!"   Reminds me of those who have an affair with a married person, then marry the person after the divorce. Why are they surprised when the spouse cheats on them, too? Duh!     Dennis Steckley   Every gun that is made and every warship that is launched, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed--Dwight Eisenhower        
(back) Subject: Re: my resignation From: "V. David Barton" <vdbarton@erols.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:06:29 -0400   Colin Mitchell wrote: > I thought the organ world had gone mad!   And, pray tell, what MORE would it take to convince you?    
(back) Subject: RE: Out with the"old," in with the "new" From: "andrew meagher" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:34:21 -0400   Sebastian,   Did your organbuilding friend have a contract with the church? Usually a contract is signed before building is started and then if the church tries to fire the builder they can sue for breach of contract.   Andrew Meagher   P.S. It was nice to meet you in Albany   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of TubaMagna@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:04 AM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Out with the"old," in with the "new"     Dear PipeChatters: What has happened to Bud is, unfortunately, commonplace. The worst part of it is that those doing the firing and/or "revamping" actually have a hidden agenda and may dispose of faithful servants for reasons other than those stated. We are used to this in the cut-throat world of business, and we tend to stick our heads in the sand when it comes to the way people are treated by religious instiutions. A great deal of evil is cloaked in words of faith, as they are easily used and rarely questioned. Clergy can pull such maneuvers upon their ascension to power, and unfortunately, organists can be guilty of similar tactics, firing choir members or organbuilders at the drop of a hat, on personal whim. I know of several professional choirs that live and sing in fear, with the threat of termination hanging over them. In one situation, the choirmaster frequently rehires them, acting as if he had done nothing destructive to them in the past. An organbuilding colleague was temporarily victimized when a interim rector was set up, firing all of the best people, from the sexton, who had lived on the grounds for decades, to the woman who was rumored to be the best church secretary around. The former organist, who had commissioned the organ under construction, was replaced by an organ fan (without auditioning). Without even meeting the organbuilder, this deeply evil and petty man fired the builder, and the organ was never finished. Fortunately, the organbuilder went on to build some fine organs, and the organ-player will be unknown. His one trophy will be the model of the new organ case, which was never returned to the organbuilder. Here in New York, if one doesn't have a contract, an organist/choirmaster is considered an "at will" employee, giving the church the power to terminate employment with or without cause. I don't know the rules in California. Asking the church for a contract can also get somebody fired, or never hired. This brings us back to some larger issues: people throwing out fine pipe organs and music programs because "there is nobody to play them"; churches willing to hire elementary school administrators to play the organ for a pittance (or even nothing, if they love the Lord enough); and the belief that the more a worship service looks like MTV, the more young people will come to services and give money. Although we are usually strengthened (after the initial shock and rage), and we learn some very valuable lessons that protect us in the future, it looks as though Bud can see the end of the rope, and will hopefully get the help and advice to pull himself back up.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: RE: Bud From: "andrew meagher" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:35:50 -0400   Michael,   He can sue because it is illegal to dock someone's pay because they are sick.   Andrew Meagher   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Michael Franch Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 10:21 AM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: Bud     Not to play devil's advocate, but what would he sue them for? They offered him a proposal and he declined. The proposal, wether bad or good, implies that he still has a job, but at a lower wage.   And I do agree leaving in a snit is counter-productive. My guess is that = the embers were burning much before the actual fire.   If Bud could give a short history as to where he thinks the transition started that would help. Was there a contract?   Unfortunately, a church is still a business and there is a 'boss' to = answer to. If the boss doen't like what's going on, or thinks you're being paid = too much, or had other reasons not to keep you, you go. Sad, but true. But he wan't fired. He was offered a proposal that he was sure to turn down. = That's the way to get out of firing and the legal wranglings that go with it.   Mike Franch in Madiosn, WI     Should Bud decide to >"sue the bastards", I suggest that he see a lawyer (preferably one who is >also an organist or well-informed about church/state and First Amendment >issues) and be careful to avoid dragging issues of church "doctrine = and/or >discipline" into the fray. > >Best wishes, >David Baker   _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3D3963   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: RE: Bud From: "andrew meagher" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:38:13 -0400   A church is NOT a business. Churches are not-for-profit organizations. However, in employee relations they should still act professionally as anyone that hires employees would.   Andrew Meagher   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Emmons, Paul Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 10:34 AM To: 'PipeChat' Subject: RE: Bud     > Unfortunately, a church is still a business   Obviously: the website is in the .com domain, didn't you notice..   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: RE: my resignation From: "andrew meagher" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:39:03 -0400   If a grievance is filed AGO also considers them a scab and they get booted from the organization!   Andrew Meagher   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Alan Freed Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 10:57 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: my resignation     On 7/23/03 10:08 AM, "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> wrote:   > An organist who moves into a job when his predecessor has been treated = as > badly as you have been is a scab in my book.   Totally agreed, Paul. And he/she should be TREATED like one.   Alan   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Re: BUD CLARK - a sympathizer From: "james nerstheimer" <enigma1685@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:47:52 -0500   Hi,   I'm Jim and new subscriber. Been reading this thread with interest as I = am running on the edge myself. I have served a local parish for 8 years = which has been in decline for at least that long and whose current rector is = going to end up finishing that off with a closing belch.   This parish has become nothing more than an ecclsiastical tax shelter for = a bunch of nickel millionaires. I had a nervous breakdown last month, = almost became homeless, and not a one would lift a finger to help. (except for damage control--wouldn't want the church to look bad) I'm looking for a better place and am willing to relocate almost anywhere in the country.   I would love to find a Unitarian congregation if possible because it is = some wonderful UU's who are giving me a roof over my head at the moment. However, I am happy to serve any congregation that has open hearts, open minds, and that actually PRACTICES what they preach.   The community (is it?) that I am trapped in is a loathsome place in which = to find work and my current position is only a part-time one. I am near-destitute and would need some assistance in resettling. I have no family save my two cats and everything I own fits into my car.   Also wish to start an organ company. I will not remain down forever and = the tide I intend to make rise will lift a lot of boats, and in the end, spirits.   Interested parties may reply here or phone me after 8pm CDT at (815) 758-0796. Calls during the mid-day are discouraged as my gracious hosts have their nap then! Or, leave a message for me (Jim Nerstheimer) between =   9-12 at (815) 756-4888.   Thank you! BTW, there is a Wurlitzer 4700 here in a good acoustic that makes an awesome sound. Needs some help though. Any advice is welcome.   jim   O):^)   PS: I don't know how effective they are, but I've heard you can file a grieveance with the AGO and they will impose sanctions against = unscrupulous employers.   _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/junkmail    
(back) Subject: Re: I QUIT! (x-posted) From: "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:44:01 -0400       On 22 Jul 2003 at 21:18, Alan Freed wrote: > Yeah, but nobody gives the website address; I didn't even know they > HAD one! > > Alan   .....Nor did I, till Google pointed it out for me. Not only is Bud's = picture on the Staff page, there's also the whole music ministry page that will need to be = reworked.   It still amazes me how COLD and UNCHRISTIAN some churches can be. I've = seen it (and been on the receiving end of it) TOO OFTEN. I wonder what drives = this way of thinking. If we knew that, we could see the warning signs long before = it happens, and get out of there.   Bud, shake the dust from thy sandals quickly.   --Shirley    
(back) Subject: A (semi-)decent farewell From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:04:01 -0400   On 7/23/03 4:44 PM, "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> wrote:   > It still amazes me how COLD and UNCHRISTIAN some churches can be.   Well, don't be too sure. I can foresee Bud's last Sunday. They'll throw a wonderful catered buffet in his honor, and demonstrate their gratitude to him for his service by presenting him with a stunning check in the mid-five figures..   Alan (so desperate that he's reaching too far and black-humorously grasping at fantasies)      
(back) Subject: RE: A (semi-)decent farewell From: "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:02:00 -0500   I think Bud has already HAD his last Sunday at St. Matthew's.   -----Original Message----- From: Alan Freed [mailto:acfreed0904@earthlink.net]=3D20 Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 3:04 PM To: PipeChat Subject: A (semi-)decent farewell   On 7/23/03 4:44 PM, "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> wrote:   > It still amazes me how COLD and UNCHRISTIAN some churches can be.   Well, don't be too sure. I can foresee Bud's last Sunday. They'll throw a wonderful catered buffet in his honor, and demonstrate their gratitude to him for his service by presenting him with a stunning check in the mid-five figures..   Alan (so desperate that he's reaching too far and black-humorously grasping at fantasies)     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Re: A (semi-)decent farewell From: "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:07:28 -0400       On 23 Jul 2003 at 17:04, Alan Freed wrote:   > On 7/23/03 4:44 PM, "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> wrote: > > > It still amazes me how COLD and UNCHRISTIAN some churches can be. > > Well, don't be too sure. I can foresee Bud's last Sunday. They'll > throw a wonderful catered buffet in his honor, and demonstrate their > gratitude to him for his service by presenting him with a stunning > check in the mid-five figures..     The catered lunch, perhaps.... the Council (Vestry??) needs to look good in the eyes of the rest of the congregation, see.   --Shirley, still bitter    
(back) Subject: RE: my resignation From: "Travis L. Evans" <tevansmo@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:07:50 -0700 (PDT)   As I recall, he was hired as an Assistant, and was going to take over part of the duties. But with all of the things that have gone one, he's not taken the position.   Travis --- andrew meagher <ameagher@stny.rr.com> wrote: > If a grievance is filed AGO also considers them a > scab and they get booted > from the organization! > > Andrew Meagher > > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org > [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > Alan Freed > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 10:57 AM > To: PipeChat > Subject: Re: my resignation > > > On 7/23/03 10:08 AM, "Emmons, Paul" > <pemmons@wcupa.edu> wrote: > > > An organist who moves into a job when his > predecessor has been treated as > > badly as you have been is a scab in my book. > > Totally agreed, Paul. And he/she should be TREATED > like one. > > Alan > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >     __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: A (semi-)decent farewell From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:43:49 -0400   On 7/23/03 5:02 PM, "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> wrote:   > I think Bud has already HAD his last Sunday at St. Matthew's. > Yes. That's part of what I mean by "grasping at fantasies" or whatever I called it. Yer right. What a SAD situation! The sheer intellectual = ENERGY he put into that parish, about a newer instrument, etc., in INCALCULABLE! The mind simply boggles, if not collapses.   Alan    
(back) Subject: moving day, IRC From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:52:22 -0700   Well, I found something to laugh at. Went to clear out my stuff this afternoon ... when I arrived they'd taken the lock out of the organ console and hidden the punch-cards for the alterable voices. There are a half-dozen keys to the organ all over the parish, and it's never locked anyway since we moved. What the heck was I going to do with Allen punch cards for a 301-C??!!   I was going to leave all my compositions on the computer in my office, but the rest of the family prevailed upon me not to do so.   I'm on IRC, if anybody wants to chat.   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Bud, A more agressive approach From: "bnorth" <bnorth@intergate.ca> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:07:25 -0700   A friend of mine bought a used car from a major dealership in our area. = The car was to have a repair done before delivery. Somehow, that didnt happen and the car was delivered without the repair. The dealership, for reasons known only to itself, refused to honor its contract and repair the car. My friend, his wife and 2 kids, showed up at the dealership first thing on a Saturday morning. One parent and child at each of the 2 entrances. Big = signs outlining their problem were prominently displayed to all who passed by = that busy street. The general manager of the dealership arrived shortly afterwards, and they were quickly summoned to his office, where an offer = of settlement was quickly made and accepted.   Some times you have to be direct and in their face. Bud is no longer employed by that church, and could let his situation be known to all, with large signs, carefully placed near the entrance to the church, as they = enter God's house to worship this Sunday morning. Not a word has to be spoken, but the message will be received. Nothing may happen as a result of this action, but I suggest Bud would receive a measure of satifaction, that = could make up for some of the crap he has faced over the past few years. God = works in mysterious ways........    
(back) Subject: IRC From: "Tyler Robertson" <brad_taylor32@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:27:58 -0500   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: Re: IRC From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:37:03 -0700   Go to   http://www.pipechat.org/irc.html   for directions.   Cheers,   Bud   Tyler Robertson wrote: > What channel are you meeting on? > > > > > Tyler W. Robertson > Organist, Handbell Choir Director,First United Methodist Church, Temple, TX > Organist, Baylor University Concert Choir > Organist, Accompanist, Baylor University Women's Chorus > 200 Cottonwood Apt. 3 > Waco, TX 76706 > (254) 715-6309 > From: quilisma@socal.rr.com > Reply-To: "PipeChat" > To: anglican-music@list.stsams.org, AnglicanMusicLiturgyandControversy , > organchat , PipeChat > Subject: moving day, IRC > Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:52:22 -0700 > Well, I found something to laugh at. Went to clear out my stuff this > afternoon ... when I arrived they'd taken the lock out of the organ > console and hidden the punch-cards for the alterable voices. There are a > half-dozen keys to the organ all over the parish, and it's never locked > anyway since we moved. What the heck was I going to do with Allen punch > cards for a 301-C??!! > I was going to leave all my compositions on the computer in my office, > but the rest of the family prevailed upon me not to do so. > I'm on IRC, if anybody wants to chat. > Cheers, > Bud > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Protect your PC - Click here <http://g.msn.com/8HMPENUS/2755??PS=> for > McAfee.com VirusScan Online "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A > discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : > http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: Re: Bud, A more agressive approach From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:47:54 -0700   We're thinking about it (grin).   Cheers,   Bud   bnorth wrote: > A friend of mine bought a used car from a major dealership in our area. The > car was to have a repair done before delivery. Somehow, that didnt happen > and the car was delivered without the repair. The dealership, for reasons > known only to itself, refused to honor its contract and repair the car. My > friend, his wife and 2 kids, showed up at the dealership first thing on a > Saturday morning. One parent and child at each of the 2 entrances. Big signs > outlining their problem were prominently displayed to all who passed by that > busy street. The general manager of the dealership arrived shortly > afterwards, and they were quickly summoned to his office, where an offer of > settlement was quickly made and accepted. > > Some times you have to be direct and in their face. Bud is no longer > employed by that church, and could let his situation be known to all, with > large signs, carefully placed near the entrance to the church, as they enter > God's house to worship this Sunday morning. Not a word has to be spoken, > but the message will be received. Nothing may happen as a result of this > action, but I suggest Bud would receive a measure of satifaction, that could > make up for some of the crap he has faced over the past few years. God works > in mysterious ways........ > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >