PipeChat Digest #3725 - Wednesday, June 4, 2003
 
Re: the good old days
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Craig Whitney interview on NPR
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Re: Craig Whitney interview on NPR
  by "Daniel Hopkins" <danielwh@ns.sympatico.ca>
Re: Craig Whitney interview on NPR
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Closed door, Open window
  by <Kzimmer0817@aol.com>
AGO/Union Representation
  by <Kzimmer0817@aol.com>
RE: Opinions welcomed... (Long posting)
  by "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca>
Re: Closed door, Open window
  by <DudelK@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: the good old days From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 06:21:56 -0500   quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote:   > > When the first big organ at Trinity Wall Street was finished, there > was a TRAFFIC JAM on lower Broadway of carriages full of people going > to see it ... can you IMAGINE such a thing today?     Well, yes, actually. Several thousand people attended the opening of the new organ at St. Ignatius Loyola, New York about ten years ago, and thousands more were unable to get in. The lines of people stretched for a block or two.   > > When we moved and restored the Koehnken & Grimm in Cincinnati, the > reservoir was lined with German-language newspapers from the time the > organ was built ... the 1890s.   The same was true of the 1894 Moller that we at QPO restored and relocated to All Saints Anglican Church in Tulsa, OK, a couple of years ago, although this one was lined with English language newspapers. It was formerly in a church in Columbus, Ohio, and is thought to be the earliest extant Moller for which the firm made its own pipework. Some of the pipes are signed "M. P. Moller," suggesting that the Great Dane himself may have personally voiced them. The reservoir, although a little leaky, was still holding wind with its original century-old leather when we took it apart to releather it. We were careful to keep the newspaper intact and also restored the original feeders, which had previously been disconnected.   There is another Koehnken & Grimm here in St. Louis at Covenant Theological Seminary.   John Speller    
(back) Subject: Craig Whitney interview on NPR From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 06:25:58 -0500   Quick, everyone! Get to your radios and listen to Morning Edition on National Public Radio. There is an interview of Craig Whitney discussing his new book "All the Stops" and the new 4/80 Schantz organ at St. Vincent Ferrars. Or for those who miss it, go on the internet www.npr.org   John Speller    
(back) Subject: Re: Craig Whitney interview on NPR From: "Daniel Hopkins" <danielwh@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 09:22:37 -0300   Can we find the interview in the archives audio?? Danielwh       Subject: Craig Whitney interview on NPR     > www.npr.org > > John Speller > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Craig Whitney interview on NPR From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 07:38:14 -0500   It is not in the archives, but according to their website at http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/index.html the audio will be available online after noon Eastern Time today.   John Speller   Daniel Hopkins wrote:   >Can we find the interview in the archives audio?? >Danielwh > >      
(back) Subject: Closed door, Open window From: <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 08:57:36 EDT     --part1_de.39998a54.2c0f46c0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Bob said,   "I dont where it comes from, but the expression that God closes a door, = but opens a window...."     Actually, that was Fraulein Maria's expression in "The Sound Of Music". = It's not directly Scriptural (kinda like "The Lord helps those who help themselves") but God does tend to operate that way some times.   Keith   --part1_de.39998a54.2c0f46c0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D2 = FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D =3D3D"Arial" LANG=3D3D"0">Bob said, <BR> <BR> "I dont where it comes from, but the expression that God closes a door, = but=3D20=3D opens a window...." <BR> <BR> Actually, that was Fraulein Maria's expression in "The Sound Of = Music".&nbsp=3D ; It's not directly Scriptural (kinda like "The Lord helps those who help = th=3D emselves") but God does tend to operate that way some times.<BR> <BR> Keith</FONT></HTML>   --part1_de.39998a54.2c0f46c0_boundary--  
(back) Subject: AGO/Union Representation From: <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 09:33:03 EDT     --part1_b8.418be645.2c0f4f0f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Please forgive me for not referencing this quote because I closed my mail before typing this. . . In response to the messages referencing = "Opinions Welcomed", somebody said:   "Unions, which is essentially what the AGO is, were created to protect the =   small people. None of us should feel afriad to use our representation. = We're all in this together. "   I guess my question is what in the world can an organization like the AGO = do in protecting the small people? Does a representative write the church a letter demanding reinstatement of the organist? While it may feel that it = can give guidelines regarding appropriate salaries and benefits, does it have = any "authority" to force those guidelines on individual churches? That gets = kinda scary. Of course, I'm one of those amateurs who was drafted rather = joyfully into church music. I don't depend on it for my income, so I don't relate = to the frustrations of professional musicians. After agonizing for months over whether to choose between medicine and music as a career, I decided to = pursue medicine with the idea that I would be better able to enjoy my music if I = wasn't having to depend on it for a living - as well as the politics surrounding = it - both in church and in academia.   While my own organizations: the A.M.A. (membership I dropped) and the American Academy of Family Physicians have various guidelines (we can't = discuss fees, though) they have no authority over any company that may hire one of us. = Of course, we can't unionize, so the analogy isn't quite the same. I may be able to get some representation if I were truly "wronged" by somebody, but = it would have to be something really blatant and wrong, not just that things = didn't go my way. Again, that "representation" wouldn't carry with it any "authority".   Anyway, to me, Mr. Baker gives the most appropriate response. Those of us =   who are in "professions" as opposed to "jobs" are to respond differently = in these kinds of situations. That doesn't discount any "inward emotions" we = may feel over it, but it does affect our "outward behavior". If somebody else = was chosen over you or me for a position, trying to fight for the position = will not do anybody any good, regardless of who was right or wrong.   When my girlfriend broke up with me many, many years ago, the reason she = gave me was pretty lame. Nevertheless, there was no room to debate the matter. = Even a few weeks later, when she was arm-in-arm with another boy at church =   (which was inconsistent with the actual reason she gave me for breaking = up) it would have served no purpose to confront her with her own inconsistency. = I just had to get over it and move on.   Thanks, Keith Zimmerman   --part1_b8.418be645.2c0f4f0f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR=3D3D"#3dffff"><FONT = SIZE=3D3D2=3D FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D3D"Arial" LANG=3D3D"0">Please forgive me = for not re=3D ferencing this quote because I closed my mail before typing this. . = .&nbsp;&=3D nbsp; In response to the messages referencing "Opinions Welcomed", = somebody=3D20=3D said:<BR> <BR> "Unions, which is essentially what the AGO is, were created to protect the = s=3D mall people.&nbsp; None of us should feel afriad to use our = representation.&=3D nbsp; We're all in this together. "<BR> <BR> I guess my question is what in the world can an organization like the AGO = do=3D in protecting the small people?&nbsp; Does a representative write the = churc=3D h a letter demanding reinstatement of the organist?&nbsp; While it may = feel=3D20=3D that it can give guidelines regarding appropriate salaries and benefits, = doe=3D s it have any "authority" to force those guidelines on individual = churches?&=3D nbsp; That gets kinda scary.&nbsp; Of course, I'm one of those amateurs = who=3D20=3D was drafted rather joyfully into church music.&nbsp; I don't depend on it fo=3D r my income, so I don't relate to the frustrations of professional = musicians=3D ..&nbsp; After agonizing for months over whether to choose between = medicine a=3D nd music as a career, I decided to pursue medicine with the idea that I = woul=3D d be better able to enjoy my music if I wasn't having to depend on it for = a=3D20=3D living - as well as the politics surrounding it - both in church and in = acad=3D emia.<BR> <BR> While my own organizations: the A.M.A. (membership I dropped) and the = Americ=3D an Academy of Family Physicians have various guidelines (we can't discuss = fe=3D es, though) they have no authority over any company that may hire one of = us.=3D &nbsp;&nbsp; Of course, we can't unionize, so the analogy isn't quite the = sa=3D me.&nbsp; I may be able to get some representation if I were truly = "wronged"=3D by somebody, but it would have to be something really blatant and wrong, = no=3D t just that things didn't go my way.&nbsp; Again, that "representation" = woul=3D dn't carry with it any "authority".<BR> <BR> Anyway, to me, Mr. Baker gives the most appropriate response.&nbsp; Those = of=3D us who are in "professions" as opposed to "jobs" are to respond = differently=3D in these kinds of situations.&nbsp; That doesn't discount any "inward = emoti=3D ons" we may feel over it, but it does affect our "outward behavior".&nbsp; = I=3D f somebody else was chosen over you or me for a position, trying to fight = fo=3D r the position will not do anybody any good, regardless of who was right = or=3D20=3D wrong.<BR> <BR> When my girlfriend broke up with me many, many years ago, the reason she = gav=3D e me was pretty lame.&nbsp; Nevertheless, there was no room to debate the = ma=3D tter.&nbsp; Even a few weeks later, when she was arm-in-arm with another = boy=3D at church (which was inconsistent with the actual reason she gave me for = br=3D eaking up) it would have served no purpose to confront her with her own = inco=3D nsistency.&nbsp; I just had to get over it and move on.<BR> <BR> Thanks,<BR> Keith Zimmerman</FONT></HTML>   --part1_b8.418be645.2c0f4f0f_boundary--  
(back) Subject: RE: Opinions welcomed... (Long posting) From: "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 09:49:54 -0400   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0002_01C32A7E.A6CCEE80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by marlo.eagle.ca id = h54DaPn84399   The AGO is a union or association of organists and others based in the United States that have interest in organs. The AGO is NOT a trade = union.=3D If it were a trade union the AGO would be associated with a larger umbrella organization like, for instance, the United Steel Workers of America, and you would have union dues deducted from your payroll. There would also be the issue of seniority; an organist like Felix Hell, being very young and new to the =3D93union=3D94, would conceivably have trouble finding = anyplace t=3D o perform- despite the large demand for him to do so.   I think the AGO has a mechanism for addressing =3D93grievances=3D94 = provided =3D by members of the AGO and they are handled somewhat like grievances are addressed by trade unions. I would not like to see organists =3D93organize=3D94 and form trade = unions. T=3D here would be some short term benefits, but the end would be very bad.   AjM   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of = Ji=3D m Clouser Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 12:33 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Opinions welcomed... (Long posting)   How is the AGO not a union?         ------=3D_NextPart_000_0002_01C32A7E.A6CCEE80 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <html xmlns:v=3D3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =3D xmlns:o=3D3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =3D xmlns:w=3D3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =3D xmlns=3D3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">   <head> <meta http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"> <meta name=3D3DProgId content=3D3DWord.Document> <meta name=3D3DGenerator content=3D3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <meta name=3D3DOriginator content=3D3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <link rel=3D3DFile-List href=3D3D"cid:filelist.xml@01C32A7E.25E02BC0"> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:DoNotRelyOnCSS/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:DocumentKind>DocumentEmail</w:DocumentKind> <w:EnvelopeVis/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:16792199 0 0 0 65791 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} p.MsoAutoSig, li.MsoAutoSig, div.MsoAutoSig {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family:Arial; mso-hansi-font-family:Arial; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial; color:navy;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D3D"edit" spidmax=3D3D"1027"/> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D3D"edit" data=3D3D"1"/> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head>   <body bgcolor=3D3Dwhite lang=3D3DEN-US link=3D3Dblue vlink=3D3Dblue =3D style=3D3D'tab-interval:.5in'>   <div class=3D3DSection1>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span class=3D3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D3D2 =3D color=3D3Dnavy face=3D3DArial><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Th= =3D e AGO is a union or association of organists and others based in the United =3D States that have interest in organs. The AGO is NOT a <i><span =3D style=3D3D'font-style:italic'>trade</span></i> union. If it were a trade union the AGO would be associated with a =3D larger umbrella organization like, for instance, the United Steel Workers of =3D America, and you would have union dues deducted from your payroll. There would =3D also be the issue of seniority; an organist like Felix Hell, being very young =3D and new to the &#8220;union&#8221;, would conceivably have trouble finding =3D anyplace to perform- despite the large demand for him to do =3D so.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span class=3D3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D3D2 =3D color=3D3Dnavy face=3D3DArial><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!= =3D [if =3D !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span class=3D3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D3D2 =3D color=3D3Dnavy face=3D3DArial><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I = =3D think the AGO has a mechanism for addressing &#8220;grievances&#8221; provided by = =3D members of the AGO and they are handled somewhat like grievances are addressed by trade =3D unions.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span class=3D3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D3D2 =3D color=3D3Dnavy face=3D3DArial><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I = =3D would not like to see organists &#8220;organize&#8221; and form trade unions. = =3D There would be some short term benefits, but the end would be very =3D bad.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span class=3D3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D3D2 =3D color=3D3Dnavy face=3D3DArial><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!= =3D [if =3D !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span class=3D3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D3D2 =3D color=3D3Dnavy face=3D3DArial><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Aj= =3D M<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal><span class=3D3DEmailStyle17><font size=3D3D2 =3D color=3D3Dnavy face=3D3DArial><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!= =3D [if =3D !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D2 =3D color=3D3Dblack face=3D3DTahoma><span =3D style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =3D pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]<b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>On =3D Behalf Of </span></b>Jim Clouser<br> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, June 04, = =3D 2003 12:33 AM<br> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> PipeChat<br> <b><span style=3D3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Opinions =3D welcomed... (Long posting)</span></font></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal style=3D3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3D3 =3D face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt'><![if =3D !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>   <div style=3D3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in = =3D 0in 4.0pt'>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal =3D style=3D3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3D2 =3D color=3D3Dblack face=3D3DArial><span =3D style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>How is the AGO not a union?</span></font><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dblack =3D face=3D3DArial><span style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:win=3D dowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal =3D style=3D3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3D2 =3D color=3D3Dblack face=3D3DArial><span =3D style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>&nbsp;</span></f= =3D ont><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dblack face=3D3DArial><span =3D style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal =3D style=3D3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3D2 =3D color=3D3Dblack face=3D3DArial><span =3D style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>&nbsp;</span></f= =3D ont><font size=3D3D2 color=3D3Dblack face=3D3DArial><span =3D style=3D3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>   <p class=3D3DMsoNormal =3D style=3D3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3D3 =3D color=3D3Dblack face=3D3D"Times New Roman"><span =3D style=3D3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if =3D !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]></span></font><font color=3D3Dblack><span =3D style=3D3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><= =3D /p>   </div>   </div>   </body>   </html>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0002_01C32A7E.A6CCEE80--    
(back) Subject: Re: Closed door, Open window From: <DudelK@aol.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 09:49:05 EDT     --part1_29.4164de42.2c0f52d1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Not quite -- those words were from the Reverend Mother to Maria who was trying to decide whether to leave the convent and go to work for the = Baron.   --part1_29.4164de42.2c0f52d1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D2 = FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D =3D3D"Arial" LANG=3D3D"0">Not quite -- those words were from the Reverend = Mother=3D to Maria who was trying to decide whether to leave the convent and go to = wo=3D rk for the Baron. </FONT></HTML>   --part1_29.4164de42.2c0f52d1_boundary--