PipeChat Digest #3742 - Wednesday, June 11, 2003
 
RE:  Reeds
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Andres Gunther
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Organ music of Cecil Effinger
  by <Mark.Harris@fac.lon.ac.uk>
worcester
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Re: Tune: Worcester
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
wedding fee question
  by "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net>
Re: wedding fee question
  by <Pologaptommy@aol.com>
Re: wedding fee question
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: wedding fee question
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: wedding fee question
  by "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net>
Re: wedding fee question
  by "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Reeds From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 13:53:39 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   Andres quotes from history, and I would add to that a little.   Even the renowned Schulze (more or less contemporary with Walcker and Cavaille-Coll) managed to produce quite dreadful reeds, but they were, of course, bought from suppliers. The 32ft reed at Doncaster Parish Church, here in the UK, is woefully wrongly scaled!   I suspect that Germany was very insular and "regional" in the 19th century, even though there were efforts to embrace a wider perspective, and the Cavaille-Coll name was certainly known and respected in Germany.   I suspect that the reason for "thin" German reeds hangs on two issues.   Firtly, the baroque tradition which more or less continued well into the 19th century in Germany; at least in terms of low wind pressures and open foot voicing.   Secondly, by embracing "free reeds" of the harmonium variety (as advocated by Vogler), they pursued a musical blind alley. (Whoever heard of a concerto for Physharmonica?)   Cavaille-Coll's Spanish exposure was, I suspect, the turning point, which coupled to his harmonium reed experience, gave him the requisite skills to develop new and brilliant reed tone.   However, where did that lead to in France?   Take away August Gerne (Cavaille-Coll's foreman) and there doesn't seem to be much evidence of a great dynasty of reed voicers....though I could be wrong!   The mantle of supreme reed voicers seems to have been taken up in England and in America, and both Father Willis and Skinner could match anything Cavaille Coll could do; albeit in a different way. Even Hope Jones knew a thing or two about reed voicing! In fact, I have been very impressed by Hope Jones reeds on the few extant original organs I have come across.   That skill was passed on to Wurlitzer in America and to Norman & Beard in the UK; the latter producing some of the finest imitative reeds I have personally ever heard.   Even though some of the reed tones associated with the high romantic (Edwardian in the UK) organ are now out of fashion, just a brief list of builders who produced fine reeds in the UK almost beggars belief:-   Harrison & Harrison John Compton Hill, Norman & Beard W C Jones (Independently of H & H) Henry Willis Rushworth & Dreaper Taylor Ainscough (A former Willis man) Norman & Beard (prior to their amalgamtion > with HN&B) Abbot & Smith J W Walker Hope Jones (taken over by Norman & Beard) etc etc   There are many more in the list, but the above give some idea of the sheer quality of reed voicing in the UK around the turn of the last century and up to about 1955.   I do not know enough about American builders other than Skinner to suggest a list, but I feel sure that our friends there will add their own contributions!   (There now follows a flood of postings!) Food for thought.....what went wrong?   And as a final thought, I shall be hearing some of the finest reeds in the world shortly, at St Bavvo, Haarlem.....low pressure, true trumpet tones and lovely non-imitative reeds. My question remains....why were Dutch reeds so excellent as compared to the rest of Europe during the 18th century?   And as a final provocative gesture, perhaps someone might yet explain why the Germans, who build everything so beautifully....cars, machines, cameras and the like.....cannot make a trumpet rank sound remotely acceptable to the ear?   Not even Mercedes Trucks have horns quite this bad!!!!!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK ;-)   --- Andr=E9s G=FCnther <agun@telcel.net.ve> wrote:   > Colin Mtchell wrote: > (SNIP) > > Just to throw an idea into the collective tin-lead > > smelting pot, why are German reeds so awful?       __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html  
(back) Subject: Re: Andres Gunther From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:09:38 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   I agree with that Ross, and would add that Andres writes in a foreign language, which must be quite an ordeal some of the time.   It is one thing to ask where the station is in a foreign language, but a very different matter to explain concepts or write eloquently about historic matters.   His efforts are greatly appreciated.   In fact, Andres is so absorbed in Cavaille Coll, and so enthusiastic about the subject, I wonder if he would like my original LP about the re-building of the Trocadero Organ in Paris?   It features interviews with Marchal and Victor Gonzalez and explores the tones of the organ.   God knows how much it would cost to send it to Venesuala in a strengthened package, but if Andres would like this fascinating disc, I would be more than happy to give it to him as he obviously adores the work of Cavaille Coll.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK         --- Ross & Lynda Wards <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > Dear List, > > I hope this is in order. I'd like very publicly to > say how much I appreciate > Andres Gunther's postings. > THANK YOU, ANDRES!!! >     __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html  
(back) Subject: Organ music of Cecil Effinger From: <Mark.Harris@fac.lon.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:28:45 +0100   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C3301D.62316036 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Browsing through the music library this afternoon I found Effinger's =3D Prelude and Fugue for organ. Does any listmember play this work and/or = =3D care to offer an opinion on it? =3D20 Mark Harris =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D20   ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C3301D.62316036 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Diso-8859-1">     <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3D3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#0000ff face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2><SPAN=3D20 class=3D3D672371711-11062003>Browsing through the music library this =3D afternoon I=3D20 found Effinger's <EM>Prelude and Fugue</EM> for organ.&nbsp; Does any =3D listmember=3D20 play this work and/or care to offer an opinion on =3D it?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#0000ff face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2><SPAN=3D20 class=3D3D672371711-11062003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#0000ff face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2><SPAN =3D class=3D3D672371711-11062003>Mark=3D20 Harris</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#0000ff face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2><SPAN=3D20 class=3D3D672371711-11062003>=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= =3D3D</SPAN></FONT></=3D DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#0000ff face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2><SPAN=3D20 class=3D3D672371711-11062003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>   ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C3301D.62316036--  
(back) Subject: worcester From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 10:47:44 -0500   Thanks to the list, I have located the tune Worcester, and I have a person who will be sending me the text.   Thanks all!   Dennis Steckley   Every gun that is made and every warship that is launched, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed--Dwight Eisenhower        
(back) Subject: Re: Tune: Worcester From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:47:59 -0400   On 6/10/03 11:10 PM, "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> wrote:   > One of the hymns was listed as the tune, "Worcester," to the words, > "Glory Be to God the Father." I've looked through a STACK of hymnals and > cannot locate this one.   This may or may not be the right one for you. The Lutheran Book of Worship uses that text to a tune IT calls HERR, ICH HABE MISBEHANDELT. That text and tune are familiar to me for several generations of Lutheran hymnals (at least 50 years), and thus, I suspect, work together in several of them (SBH= , TLH, etc.). The tune is Johann Cr=FCger.   Hope it's the one you want.   Alan (only one cat left here)    
(back) Subject: wedding fee question From: "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:11:53 -0500   I have an odd wedding problem - and I want to address it with the group that gets together once a year to set/change wedding policies. We do not have a bench fee. I have tried to get them to understand the organist having right of first refusal - but what I have managed to get them to do is to put me in automatically as the organist for all weddings. But, what has happened for many weddings in the last few years is that they decide they will use piano instead of organ and they hire whoever they want (99% of the time, the choir director) - note: I am perfectly capable of playing the piano as well as the organ and do so every Sunday. And the problem grows every year. The result is twofold: 1) I am only playing for TWO weddings the entire 2003 calendar year. What was once over 10% of my total income from the church is now dinner at McDonalds. 2) I have weddings on my calendar that I don't know I'm not playing for until 1-2 weeks before the wedding - by which time I have set aside that weekend for the entire 6 month contract period requirement. (There is a wedding next weekend that I cut a vacation short for - only to learn today that the choir diirector is playing piano, not me - too late to get the extra 2 days back)   Have any of you experienced this? The "bench fee" requirements that I have seen make no mention of what happens if the couple does not use organ at all. This seems to be the method the people in my church are using to avoid paying the organist - they just don't use the organ. Anyone have any suggested work-arounds - or any suggestions of how to approach this problem, since the primary person who is playing for all these weddings instead of me is the church choir director.   I think I'm between a rock and a hard place. I would just tell them to take me out of wedding all together and tell him he can play for them all - but the lost income is really hurting.   And I have the same situation with funerals - I now play for only a few funerals a year, whereas I use to play for every fuineral that was held in the church sanctuary and most of our members funerals at funeral homes. I think most of it is because I have a day job (which I can leave to play for a funeral 99% of the time) - but he is there during the day - so they just give all the funerals to him rather than even asking if I'm available.   Ideas? Margo    
(back) Subject: Re: wedding fee question From: <Pologaptommy@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 12:48:06 EDT     --part1_1d9.b6a10b0.2c18b746_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Margo, I wish I had a solution to your problem, but I would like to add = that you are certainly not alone! I have had the same problem since I have started with First United = Methodist, Graham. Whats happening, is, the previous organist, who was there for 40+ =   years, gets hired for all the weddings. The funerals also. I attribute = that to the fact that she knows everyone very well, and most of the people she = plays for grew up with her on the organ bench. Also, most of the funerals were people she knew very well. The situation has never bothered me, even = though I was told that I would have "first refusal" for weddings, and that weddings = could possible be a big source of income. I guess because I see that she = doesn't get to play very often, and it makes her happy to play for weddings. Is a = bench fee something that could be brought up, in this situation, even though the =   organ is being used? Thanks, Josh   --part1_1d9.b6a10b0.2c18b746_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>Margo, I wish I had = a sol=3D ution to your problem, but I would like to add that you are certainly not = al=3D one! <BR>I have had the same problem since I have started with First United = Metho=3D dist, Graham. &nbsp;Whats happening, is, the previous organist, who was = ther=3D e for 40+ years, gets hired for all the weddings. &nbsp;The funerals also. = &=3D nbsp;I attribute that to the fact that she knows everyone very well, and = mos=3D t of the people she plays for grew up with her on the organ bench. = &nbsp;Als=3D o, most of the funerals were people she knew very well. &nbsp;The = situation=3D20=3D has never bothered me, even though I was told that I would have "first = refus=3D al" for weddings, and that weddings could possible be a big source of = income=3D .. &nbsp;I guess because I see that she doesn't get to play very often, = and i=3D t makes her happy to play for weddings. &nbsp;Is a bench fee something = that=3D20=3D could be brought up, in this situation, even though the organ is being = used? <BR>Thanks, <BR>Josh</FONT></HTML>   --part1_1d9.b6a10b0.2c18b746_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: wedding fee question From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 13:00:27 EDT     --part1_14e.1ff389c3.2c18ba2b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Margo, I too am having a similar problem. When I took the job at my church 6 = months ago, I was told that I would get all the weddings and funerals if I wanted =   them. What they failed to tell me was that they have all the weddings = booked, and contracts signed that only charge 100 dollars for the = organist!!!!!!!!! I calculated how many hours of driving, preparation, and playing go into a wedding and made my case. The "council" has to vote on it! I have to = take a beating on all the weddings we have booked until the end of September, but = will most likely be getting a 50 dollar raise, which actually still isin't = nearly enough. People who are not musicians can't really appreciate our = situation, and I feel somewhat insulted when they pull this kind of stunt. Most = council members are well-to-do businessmen who wouldn't lift a finger for 150 = bucks, let alone practice, meet, drive, play etc...You really need to tell them about =   your qualifications, skill, and education. Shameless self promotion is = the answer. It's been my experience that some denominations are worse than = others. I would start looking for another job where they treat you right! What denomination is your church?   Gregory   --part1_14e.1ff389c3.2c18ba2b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>Margo,=3D20 <BR>I too am having a similar problem. &nbsp;When I took the job at my = churc=3D h 6 months ago, I was told that I would get all the weddings and funerals = if=3D I wanted them. &nbsp;What they failed to tell me was that they have all = the=3D weddings booked, and contracts signed &nbsp;that only charge 100 dollars = fo=3D r the organist!!!!!!!!! &nbsp;I calculated how many hours of driving, = &nbsp;=3D preparation, and playing go into a wedding and made my case. &nbsp;The = "coun=3D cil" has to vote on it! &nbsp;&nbsp;I have to take a beating on all the = wedd=3D ings we have booked until the end of September, but will most likely be = gett=3D ing a 50 dollar raise, which actually still isin't nearly enough. = &nbsp;Peop=3D le who are not musicians can't really appreciate our situation, and I feel = s=3D omewhat insulted when they pull this kind of stunt. &nbsp;Most council = membe=3D rs are well-to-do businessmen who wouldn't lift a finger for 150 bucks, = let=3D20=3D alone practice, meet, drive, play etc...You really need to tell them about = y=3D our qualifications, skill, and education. &nbsp;&nbsp;Shameless self = promoti=3D on is the answer. &nbsp;&nbsp;It's been my experience that some = denomination=3D s are worse than others. &nbsp;I would start looking for another job where = t=3D hey treat you right! &nbsp;What denomination is your church? &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR> <BR>Gregory </FONT></HTML>   --part1_14e.1ff389c3.2c18ba2b_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: wedding fee question From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 13:12:03 -0400   Rewrite the book, if you have to, to make it clear that   1. You are the insstrumental musician; the choir director handles choir stuff. If people want a choir, it's her job; if they want instrument(s), it's your job. If they want both, you both work.   2. If they want instrument(s) only (or perhaps also a vocal soloist or = duet or other non-conducted vocal ensemble), that's yours. Which bench you sit on is negotiable. This'n, that'n, or both (but perhaps not = simultaneously).   Alan     On 6/11/03 12:11 PM, "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net> wrote:   > I have an odd wedding problem - and I want to address it with the group > that gets together once a year to set/change wedding policies. > We do not have a bench fee. I have tried to get them to understand the > organist having right of first refusal - but what I have managed to get > them to do is to put me in automatically as the organist for all > weddings. But, what has happened for many weddings in the last few > years is that they decide they will use piano instead of organ and they > hire whoever they want (99% of the time, the choir director) - note: I > am perfectly capable of playing the piano as well as the organ and do so > every Sunday. And the problem grows every year. The result is = twofold: > 1) I am only playing for TWO weddings the entire 2003 calendar year. > What was once over 10% of my total income from the church is now dinner > at McDonalds. > 2) I have weddings on my calendar that I don't know I'm not playing for > until 1-2 weeks before the wedding - by which time I have set aside that > weekend for the entire 6 month contract period requirement. (There is > a wedding next weekend that I cut a vacation short for - only to learn > today that the choir diirector is playing piano, not me - too late to > get the extra 2 days back) > > Have any of you experienced this? The "bench fee" requirements that I > have seen make no mention of what happens if the couple does not use > organ at all. This seems to be the method the people in my church are > using to avoid paying the organist - they just don't use the organ. > Anyone have any suggested work-arounds - or any suggestions of how to > approach this problem, since the primary person who is playing for all > these weddings instead of me is the church choir director. > > I think I'm between a rock and a hard place. I would just tell them to > take me out of wedding all together and tell him he can play for them > all - but the lost income is really hurting. > > And I have the same situation with funerals - I now play for only a few > funerals a year, whereas I use to play for every fuineral that was held > in the church sanctuary and most of our members funerals at funeral > homes. I think most of it is because I have a day job (which I can > leave to play for a funeral 99% of the time) - but he is there during > the day - so they just give all the funerals to him rather than even > asking if I'm available. > > Ideas? > Margo >    
(back) Subject: Re: wedding fee question From: "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 12:20:02 -0500     --------------080804000105010808000707 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii; format=3Dflowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   A bench fee was what I was wondering about. I've never had a bench fee. Every other church I have ever played for has had "right of first refusal" - but then, it was virtually unheard of to use anything but organ for a wedding. Now weddings are using piano, praise team, string quartets, harps. Does a bench fee get paid even if the organ is not used? And do you find that you wind up playing, even if only the marches, for more of the weddings along side the other instruments if they have to pay you anyway. I actually would not mind that. It was one thing 15 years ago when my church AVERAGED 6 weddings a month! - but due to whatever - demographic changes and particularly MUCH stricter rules and hoops to jump through in order to have a wedding at my church - we had 10 weddings all of last year and only 6 this year. So it would really be no imposition for me to "have to play" for all of them. And funerals are the same way - the last 2 funerals we had used praise team (if I hear one guitar, one drum beat, or one praise chorus at my funeral, I WILL sit up in my casket and call down Irish curses on everyone present!)   So - those of you with bench fees - how do they work. Do they pay even if they don't use the organ? How do you justify it, other then that other people do it? Are there bench fees for funerals also?   Margo   Pologaptommy@aol.com wrote:   > Margo, I wish I had a solution to your problem, but I would like to > add that you are certainly not alone! > I have had the same problem since I have started with First United > Methodist, Graham. Whats happening, is, the previous organist, who > was there for 40+ years, gets hired for all the weddings. The > funerals also. I attribute that to the fact that she knows everyone > very well, and most of the people she plays for grew up with her on > the organ bench. Also, most of the funerals were people she knew very > well. The situation has never bothered me, even though I was told > that I would have "first refusal" for weddings, and that weddings > could possible be a big source of income. I guess because I see that > she doesn't get to play very often, and it makes her happy to play for > weddings. Is a bench fee something that could be brought up, in this > situation, even though the organ is being used? > Thanks, > Josh       --------------080804000105010808000707 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" = content=3D"text/html;charset=3DISO-8859-1"> <title></title> </head> <body> A bench fee was what I was wondering about. &nbsp;I've never had a bench = fee. &nbsp;Every other church I have ever played for has had "right of first = refusal" - but then, it was virtually unheard of to use anything but organ for a = wedding. &nbsp;Now weddings are using piano, praise team, string quartets, harps. = &nbsp;Does a bench fee get paid even if the organ is not used? &nbsp; &nbsp;And do = you find that you wind up playing, even if only the marches, for more of the weddings = along side the other instruments if they have to pay you anyway. &nbsp; I = actually would not mind that. &nbsp;It was one thing 15 years ago when my church AVERAGED = 6 weddings a month! - but due to whatever - demographic changes and particularly MUCH stricter rules and hoops to jump through in order to have a wedding at my church - we had 10 weddings all of last year and only 6 this year. = &nbsp;So it would really be no imposition for me to "have to play" for all of them. = &nbsp; &nbsp;And funerals are the same way - the last 2 funerals we had used = praise team (if I hear one guitar, one drum beat, or one praise chorus at my funeral, I WILL sit up in my casket and call down Irish curses on everyone = present!) &nbsp; <br> <br> So - those of you with bench fees - how do they work. &nbsp;Do they pay even if they don't use the organ? &nbsp;How do you justify it, other then that = other people do it? &nbsp;Are there bench fees for funerals also?<br> <br> Margo<br> <br> <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" = href=3D"mailto:Pologaptommy@aol.com">Pologaptommy@aol.com</a> wrote:<br> <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid1d9.b6a10b0.2c18b746@aol.com"><font face=3D"arial,helvetica"><font size=3D"2">Margo, I wish I had a solution = to your problem, but I would like to add that you are certainly not alone! = <br> I have had the same problem since I have started with First United = Methodist, Graham. &nbsp;Whats happening, is, the previous organist, who was there = for 40+ years, gets hired for all the weddings. &nbsp;The funerals also. &nbsp;I = attribute that to the fact that she knows everyone very well, and most of the people she plays for grew up with her on the organ bench. &nbsp;Also, most of the = funerals were people she knew very well. &nbsp;The situation has never bothered me, = even though I was told that I would have "first refusal" for weddings, and that weddings could possible be a big source of income. &nbsp;I guess because I = see that she doesn't get to play very often, and it makes her happy to play = for weddings. &nbsp;Is a bench fee something that could be brought up, in this = situation, even though the organ is being used? <br> Thanks, <br> Josh</font></font></blockquote> <br> </body> </html>   --------------080804000105010808000707--    
(back) Subject: Re: wedding fee question From: "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 12:27:39 -0500   I think that is part of the perceptual problem - the choir director is also the pianist for the praise team - so one out of three services every Sunday sees him on the piano bench.         Alan Freed wrote:   >Rewrite the book, if you have to, to make it clear that > >1. You are the insstrumental musician; the choir director handles choir >stuff. If people want a choir, it's her job; if they want instrument(s), >it's your job. If they want both, you both work. > >2. If they want instrument(s) only (or perhaps also a vocal soloist or = duet >or other non-conducted vocal ensemble), that's yours. Which bench you = sit >on is negotiable. This'n, that'n, or both (but perhaps not = simultaneously). > >Alan > > >On 6/11/03 12:11 PM, "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net> wrote: > > > >> >>