PipeChat Digest #3516 - Tuesday, March 4, 2003
Re: Colin Mitchell's post
  by "MusicMan" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk>
RE: pastor/musician relations
  by "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #3513 - 03/03/03 - Stereo/Mono Problems
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
RE: Tamburini behemoths
  by "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca>
Sent this yesterday, but it didn't "GO"
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Tried to send this last evening, but it didn't GO
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Tamburini behemoths
  by "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca>
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Bach Marathon in Allentown
  by "Stephen Williams" <stepwill@enter.net>
  by <ProOrgo53@aol.com>
RE: pastor/musician relations
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve>
Organ appraisal for insurance X-posted
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve>

(back) Subject: Re: Colin Mitchell's post From: "MusicMan" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:52:43 -0000   Herewith, a reply (from the back of the classroom) ... "Yo, Colin, Yo; Go, Colin, Go ..."   Don't (we) organists have to listen to some "wet" sermonising (and not = just from the pulpit) 'as part of our job' ?   Nice to hear that people are prepared to stand up and say something (other than on 'Stir-Up' Sunday) ... on either side of a good argument.   GO..GO..GO..go..go..go.. .. .. .   Harry (musicman)   -----Original Message----- From: Colin Mitchell <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: 03 March 2003 21:38 Subject: Re: Colin Mitchell's post     >Hello, > >I can answer this very simply. > >Echoing a private reply just sent to another >pipechatter, I would make two statements. > >Genesis makes a point....."God created the world in 7 >days (ions)" etc etc > >Sir Bernard Lovell (an organist....keeping this ON >TOPIC of course!), Astronomer Royal at some point, and >director of Joderel Bank Observatory, made another >comment:- > >"If the Big Bang really happened, then at the >beginning of time, there was infinite mass and nil >circumference". > >The schoolboy asks another question. > >"How come?" > >Do YOU have an answer Mr Fundamentalist? >Do YOU have an answer Mr Lovell? > >The simple fact is, NO ONE KNOWS WHY OR HOW!! > >Arrogance is the blasphemy of limiting what we >perceive as God to our own understanding of things. > >The message of Christ is TOTALLY different. > >Are you all listening at the back of the class-room? > >:) > >Regards, > >Colin Mitchell UK > > > > > --- "Kevin L. Cischke" <ophicleide160@lycos.com> >wrote: > >> Colin Mitchell wrote: >> >> > >> >The debate about Genesis in America is a debate >> about >> >exactly the same arrogance of a faith system based >> on >> >misplaced authority; the idea that the Bible is >> "God's >> >word". (A curiously post-reformation idea). >> > >> I find this to be qutie an interesting idea and >> would like him to explain this more thoroughly. I am >> not sure I understand the point he is trying to >> make. >> >> What about it Colin? > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Everything you'll ever need on one web page >from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts >http://uk.my.yahoo.com > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: RE: pastor/musician relations From: "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 07:40:30 -0600   HI! In your post is the key to where people are misunderstanding what I meant. I never said that the reason I wanted to become a minister was to bridge the gap between church musicians and pastors. What I did, however, say, was that I felt called by God to be a minister and AS A MINISTER I feel I could bridge the gap between church musicians and pastors. i really think some people didn't read my post carefully enough an made it say what they wanted to preach about. It has certainly been turned into something it wasn't.     Beau      
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #3513 - 03/03/03 - Stereo/Mono Problems From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:27:28 -0800   > >A worn stylus will damage any record, but I >believe a good one won't harm either mono or >stereo on a contemporary [built sometime after >the mid-sixties] cartridge. > >Is anyone here an expert on this? This is only >what I remember, and it's been a long time! > >Lawrence     Having actually started with a "phonograph" where you change steel needles to play 78's, lived all the way through early HiFi and Stereo, building my own gear, etc. and still an "audiophile" and loving the way we now can play digital reproductions of pipe organ music(to stay on topic). the above is absolutely correct!   (A verbose) John V  
(back) Subject: RE: Tamburini behemoths From: "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:43:57 -0500   There is/was a small 2m Tamburini in a RC church in Guelph, Ontario = Canada. I was involved with one service call to this organ about 14 years ago. I have no idea if the organ is still there. I was NOT favourably impressed with this organ. It had been installed in such a way that it was almost impossible to tune the bottom 20 or so notes of the Trumpet. I'm being generous by claiming it was "almost impossible". Most of the pipes on the organ would have to be removed to get to the trumpet-not very practical. I would guess the organ was installed about 1965. Mercifully, I never saw or tuned the organ again. The finish applied to the console cabinet was very good!      
(back) Subject: Sent this yesterday, but it didn't "GO" From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 12:32:10 -0500   On 3/3/03 11:15 AM, "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> wrote:   > First, I feel that if more pastors were musically knowledgeable and > could sympathize with a church musician in his/her position of ministry > then there would be more hope for good organists and church musicians to > enhance worship in our churches. > > Do you agree?   Yes. > > Second, do you think that a trained organist and church musician who > feels called to pastoral ministry could be an advocate for church > musicians and organists thereby again helping to improve the situation > for organists and church musicians in this country?   Yes.   Fifty years ago, out of 100 persons entering the seminary, probably 40 to = 70 of them had serious musical experience (piano lessons, choir singing, = etc.). That gave them a basic acquaintance with what church music is about. Nowadays, I suspect it's less than 10 percent.   I entered seminary in 1957, with near 20 years experience as a = choir-singer, piano and organ student and player, choir conducting, etc. I could talk "CMD" to my parish musicians (after ordination in 1961).   As it just happened my pastor when I was in high school was a competent organist among other things. And my present pastor has been a = professional church musician in the past, and is quite competent at the organ, singing, chanting, etc. When I was in seminary, "chanting" is something that = didn't HAVE to be taught; we all knew how to do it anyway, having heard it all = our lives, and knowing that it was not a vocal solo, but a mode of speaking on = a series of musical pitches.   Nowadays people enter seminary with VASTLY less experience in "the church" in which they plan to serve as pastors. We KNEW the chanted liturgy by heart; nowadays it's pretty much foreign territory to them. > > Here's the context: > > As a professional, non-degreed (yet) church organist, I feel called to > pastoral ministry and am considering changing schools yet again to major > in theology rather than music and minor in music, continuing organ study > and studying conducting and harpsichord. I feel that I could be a real > bridge to the clergy-musician gap and help to encourage musician-clergy > relations on a larger level. Do you think this is realistic?   Yes, I do, Beau. Get a great education in your music. And especially in the music of the church. And then get the best education you can get in theology. Then GO FOR IT. I think you have a marvelous opportunity to serve while wearing two hats.   Alan >    
(back) Subject: Tried to send this last evening, but it didn't GO From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 12:35:39 -0500   On 3/3/03 4:59 PM, "MFoxy9795@aol.com" <MFoxy9795@aol.com> wrote:   > I can tell you that from my own experience the priests who were also = organists > whose churches I played in were much worse than many of the others. = They > could not leave their mitts off what the organist was doing. = Furthermore, they > did not take the side of the organist; they gave it lip service, but did = not > follow through in their actions. One of them was very cavalier about = ensuring > I got paid.   This is worse--much worse--than just BAD. So OK, having organist and pastor, each of whom knows the other's business, professionally, does not guarantee good things. To SOME degree, they've got to be also on the same wavelength. In Romanism, in 1947, I suppose there WAS only one = wavelength; these days it's different. Nowadays, you can't count on that, by a long shot.   In the present case at Saint Luke's, our pastor and our cantor (organist, choirmaster, music planner par excellence) are VERY much on the same wavelength. They've worked together, on and off, for twenty years or = more. Each is THOROGHLY catholic, THOROUGHLY evangelical, THOROUGHLY multicultural, and THOUGHLY committed to worship that grabs every one of = us by the gut every Sunday. Each is highly trained; organist is AAGO but doesn't let it be known; works in all the languages the pastor does plus Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and some Scandinavian; pastor works easily = in English, German, Latin, Greek, and Hebrew, and can get his wife's help = with French. THEY DON'T ALWAYS AGREE, but there is such a huge bunch of mutual respect between them that they can overcome and transcend any differences that come up.   The more stuff I read on this list and on others dealing with similar subjects, more I'm in awe of how extremely fortunate we are. This IS New York, so we've got to be able to DO MUSIC in German, British, American, Appalachian, Scandinavian, Latino, New Orleans Jazz, southern Black, Caribbean, African, Asian, and things I can't remember. And we DO, and we LOVE it! > > If you can become a clergy member and truly keep the best interests of = the > church musician foremost, more power to you. You will have no trouble > attracting good ones. > Come and look at us at www.stlukesnyc.org No audio, but you can = imagine from the visuals what we sound like!   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Tamburini behemoths From: "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:54:58 -0500   Egads!!! That one!! Dad and I saw that one once about 30 years ago. I agree with you 100%   Nelson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:43 AM Subject: RE: Tamburini behemoths     > There is/was a small 2m Tamburini in a RC church in Guelph, Ontario Canada. > I was involved with one service call to this organ about 14 years ago. I > have no idea if the organ is still there. I was NOT favourably impressed > with this organ. It had been installed in such a way that it was almost > impossible to tune the bottom 20 or so notes of the Trumpet. I'm being > generous by claiming it was "almost impossible". Most of the pipes on = the > organ would have to be removed to get to the trumpet-not very practical. = I > would guess the organ was installed about 1965. Mercifully, I never saw = or > tuned the organ again. The finish applied to the console cabinet was = very > good! > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: TAMBURINI BEHEMOTHS (x post) From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:03:51 -0500   V2l0aCByZWNlbnQgcG9zdHMgb24gYm90aCBsaXN0cyByZWdhcmRpbmcgbGFyZ2UgVGFtYnVy aW5pIG9yZ2FucywgSSB3YW50ZWQgdG8gdGVsbCBvZiBteSBvbiBleHBlcmllbmNlcy4gIE91 ciBjaG9pciB0b3VyZWQgSXRhbHkgeWVhciBiZWZvcmUgbGFzdCBhbmQgSSBoYWQgdGhlIGNo YW5jZSB0byBzZWUsIGhlYXIgYW5kIHBsYXkgc2V2ZXJhbCBvZiB0aGVpciBpbnN0cnVtZW50 cy4gIEkgZm91bmQgdGhlbSBhbGwgcXVpdGUgbmljZSwgcmF0aGVyIHN5bXBob25pYyBhbmQg dmVyeSB3YXJtIHdpdGggc2lsdmVyeSBtaXh0dXJlcyBhbmQgZmlyZXkgcmVlZHMgeWV0IHRo ZXkgd2VyZSBub3QgdGhpbiBvciBhYnJhc2l2ZS4KClRoZSA1IG1hbnVhbCBpbiBTdC4gUGV0 ZXIncyBCYXNpbGljYSBhdCB0aGUgVmF0aWNhbiB3YXMgaW5kZWVkIGRlc2lnbmVkIGJ5IEZl cm5hbmRvIEdlcm1hbmkgYW5kIGlzIGluc3RhbGxlZCBpbiB0aGUgbGFyZ2UgY3Jvc3Npbmcg YmVoaW5kIHRoZSBoaWdoIGFsdGFyIGFuZCB0aGUgQmVybmluaSBCYWxkYWNjaGlubyBhbmQg aW1tZWRpYXRlbHkgaW4gZnJvbnQgb2YgdGhlIEFsdGFyIG9mIHRoZSBDaGFpciBvZiBTdC4g UGV0ZXIuICBJdCBpcyBpbiB0d2luIGNhc2VzIHRoYXQgYXJlIHJhdGhlciBmYXIgYXBhcnQu 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(back) Subject: Bach Marathon in Allentown From: "Stephen Williams" <stepwill@enter.net> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 16:43:50 -0500   The fourth annual Bach Marathon will be held at Egner Memorial Chapel on = the campus of Muhlenberg College in Allentown, Pennsylvania on Sunday, March = 9, 2-9 p.m. This event is presented by members (mostly) of the Lehigh Valley Chapter of the AGO and will consist of organ, choral, vocal, and instrumental music. The organ at Egner Chapel is a 1982 III/46 Holtkamp. = For a full program listing of performers and titles, visit the LVAGO website = at www.lvago.org   If you're in the area, please drop by for a visit.   Stephen Williams College Organist, Muhlenberg College    
(back) Subject: OREMUS (HYMNS) From: <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 17:01:46 EST     --part1_c1.2f7b9f26.2b967c4a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <A HREF=3D"http://www.oremus.org/hymnslist.html">Click here: OREMUS</A>   --part1_c1.2f7b9f26.2b967c4a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D3 FAMILY=3D3D"SERIF" = FACE=3D3D"=3D Times New Roman" LANG=3D3D"0"> <A = HREF=3D3D"http://www.oremus.org/hymnslist.html=3D ">Click here: OREMUS</A> </FONT></HTML>   --part1_c1.2f7b9f26.2b967c4a_boundary--  
(back) Subject: RE: pastor/musician relations From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 18:30:07 -0400   Andres Gunther agun@telcel.net.ve   This thread becomes more and more interesting. First: Musician/Pastor From my experience:   Or you are Pastor or you are musician. Both is impossible. A musician has to study several hours a day and prepare the matter for = choir and orchestra rehearsals and performances. A Pastor has to attend his parishioners, solve problems, give religion classes, prepare his sermon, go here, go there all day long. In Caracas' catholic church, they are Seminar instructors, Canonic lawyers or judges, appointed leaders of a catholic movement or Chapter- you imagine. No time to study music; some Pastors don't even have time to sing in a choir nevertheless they would love to do that.   There are pastors who are organists too, of course. I have seen Organists that became priests and priests who became musicians- one of them was my Contrapunct instructor- I **shudder** when I have to deal with them because there is *always* some kind of trouble :)   Understanding between church musician and Pastor can become difficult. The musician is an artist, with that a difficult and authoritative = personality. The Pastor is the boss- and trouble starts. See Bach vs Thomaskirche or my example Juan Bautista Plaza vs Caracas Cathedral Chapter. They make = legion. A kind, respectful and understanding relationship between Pastor and = church Musician seems to be an exception...   A Church musician must know at least basic theology. In Germany this is an obbligate study matter at Church Music institutes, as I was informed. In = my country, in change, *Big sigh* no comments. We can be glad if an = "organist" can read basic scores in G-clef, doesn't use the pedal board as shoe-cleaning grille, and can pray the "Pater Noster" [grin with = melancholy]   Second: Ron Severin's Post (thank you, Ron!) Ron Severin is right whith his opinion that we need a reform from zero on. = I forgot to mention something, however. Our churches are ruled by the = parish, not by a board. Now it happened to me that parish A encouraged a Schola foundation at my church. I trained the young people for five years, we achieved a fairly good level, even singed in other churches. Our = repertoire was both "classical" and quality popular. We were just beginning with = simple poliphony... then parish A went and parish B came, and didn't permit rehearsals, didn't permit performances at the church choir aledging all = kind of ridicule pretexts, made trouble and put on restrictions on all and everything- intending clearly that he didn't want us. I shrugged my shoulders and remained as organist meanwhile the young people went away = and began to play in "Youth masses" in the neighbour parish. Right now, parish C, a music enthusiast, arrived, and the first thing he wanted was a Schola. I explained him that I *had* a Schola, that Mr. B had it closed after five years of trouble, expenses and efforts, and that I wouldn't lose my time and life effort in another experience like this = again unless the next parish guarantees me continuity in this project- what's impossible, of course. That is Venezuela's big, big trouble, not only in small matters like a parish schola but in Big Politics and all: A says "Right", B says "Left" = and topples down every project that had been started by A- it's impossible to gain confidence (of foreign investors i.e.), achieve a continuity or found = a serious tradition or "School" for that. Other problem is to get proper succesors... More in future installments about venezuelan organ history.   At last, a thought I told in a very similar thread we had at another Organ List two weeks ago. What attracts people to a church isn't a lot of fuss, a terrific choir or organ (sorry friends, it *is* so), or dramatic revolutions or counterevolutions. It is, *in this exact order*:   a) A human Parish or Pastor with a great charisma and leadership who really approaches his parishioners or congregation members- and *has and deffends well defined points of view and statements* even when not = everybody agrees with them.. b) A *professional*, human Church musician or Organist who approaches and helds together his choir, Schola, Orchestra, music group- you name it, and makes music that is worth to be heard- *no matter what style*. c) A solid music group whose level should be accesible enough that a neophite doesn't become afraid, but high enough that the music quality becomes acceptable and attractive to hear. BTW I have seen both paid and volonteer groups- the volonteers are prefearable for church service! d) A clean, well kept church- in USA or Europe this is standard, but here = we have some churches that resemble Flintstone's Prehistoric Cave with their broken windows, sooted walls, dirty chandeliers and floors and ill kept furniture.- Along with this: A well kept ORGAN- it must not be something terrific but it must be tuned and in working order.   So far my thoughts concerning this matter... Andres =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.      
(back) Subject: Organ appraisal for insurance X-posted From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 18:54:08 -0400   Andres Gunther agun@telcel.net.ve   Dear piporglers and pipechatters!   My clients of the German Lutheran Church in Caracas want to insure church and church furniture including the two organs they have.   First organ: Detlef Kleuker, Bielefeld, Germany 1964, II/13, (56 notes manual 30 notes pedal, console en fenetre) all mech tracker-slider chest, = no swellbox, perfect condition, overhauled by a Servant in August 2001.   Second organ: Detlef Kleuker, Bielefeld, Germany 1970, one 56 notes manual/coupled 30 notes pedal 4 stop Positive enclosed in swellbox with Plexiglass schutter, all mech tracker-slider chest, perfect condition, overhauled by a Servant in March 2001.   Detlef Kleuker Orgelbau doesn't exist anymore. My clients want to know an average, actual price of each instrument, given in Euros or US$ *for insurance purposes* I am not so acquainted with, I must admit. More info about spec, pipe/organ materials etc are available at request.   Many thanks in advance! Andres