PipeChat Digest #3528 - Sunday, March 9, 2003
 
Re: Organ Specs.
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
DOESNT GET IT
  by "Daryl Robinson" <drobinson@houston.rr.com>
daryl's spec, and Seb's comments (LONG)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: DOESNT GET IT
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Whew
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Whew
  by "Daryl Robinson" <drobinson@houston.rr.com>
Re: Whew
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: daryl's spec, and Seb's comments (LONG)
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: daryl's spec, and Seb's comments (LONG)
  by "Daryl Robinson" <drobinson@houston.rr.com>
Re: ANOTHER RANT
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: ANOTHER RANT
  by <Chicaleee@aol.com>
"Daryl's Rant"
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Organ Specs. From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 19:26:51 -0500   At 01:33 PM 3/10/03 +1300, Ross wrote: > >Consultants.....doing something right. ? Oh my, the mind reels over = this. > >I haven't heard such a huge oxymoron since the term "Microsoft Works". > >Or, maybe, "American diplomacy" or "American English" or "McDonalds = food"???   Bob Conway remarks,   That reminds me of Professor Higgins' line in "My Fair Lady" referring to the proper pronunciation of English, - "In America they haven't spoken it for years!"      
(back) Subject: DOESNT GET IT From: "Daryl Robinson" <drobinson@houston.rr.com> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 18:29:06 -0600   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_000A_01C2E669.C47BFDD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable     If YOU say I dont get it.............go ahead and explain. You guys are = =3D doing great at just making statements that make no sense. So PLEASE OH =3D PLEASE great one, explain it to me..........   Daryl ------=3D_NextPart_000_000A_01C2E669.C47BFDD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1141" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>If YOU say I dont get = it.............go =3D ahead and=3D20 explain. You guys are doing great at just making statements that make no = =3D sense.=3D20 So PLEASE OH PLEASE great one, explain it to me..........</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Daryl</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_000A_01C2E669.C47BFDD0--    
(back) Subject: daryl's spec, and Seb's comments (LONG) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:22:41 -0800   WHOA! Let's back up a minute here. First of all, Daryl, you put the spec out for comments. I think I sent mine privately, but I've emptied my folders since then, so I can't find the message OR the spec. Second, Seb Gluck is a well-respected organ-builder, and, like any well-respected organ-builder, he has definite ideas about what a pipe organ IS, and what it ISN'T ... and he isn't shy about saying so (grin).   OK, NOW ... I've been a consultant (yes, one of THOSE) for about forty years. When I am engaged by a church, the FIRST thing I ask is: "what does the organ have to do in the SERVICE?" Although the liturgical churches ARE sliding toward something resembling a common usage, there are STILL things an ANGLICAN organ has to do that a ROMAN CATHOLIC organ DOESN'T; a LUTHERAN organ may have to do things that NEITHER an Anglican NOR a Roman Catholic organ has to do. A Christian Science organ has to accompany SOLOISTS; that's not all that common in the liturgical churches, except for accompanying the cantor in the Roman Catholic service. A Methodist or Presbyterian organ will likely have to accompany a very WIDE range of literature, from mega-church "praise" anthems to oratorio excerpts, and so on.   Next, I try to reconcile THAT with the requirements of ORGAN LITERATURE. Here it gets a little tricky, but it still can be done. A well-voiced and well-scaled principal chorus + mixture CAN play Bach, whether its inspiration is English, German OR French. If it's English or French, some compromise IS inevitable, but it can be made workable.   The presence or absence of a Rueckpositiv IS a factor, but it should be noted that English "Chair" organs and French "Positif" organs in the traditional position DID persist into the 19th century. On the other hand, the argument CAN be made that Silbermann organs are as suitable for Bach as Schnitgers, and THEY didn't have Rueckpositivs, for the most part.   I have to go with Schweitzer about the composition of the Swell organ .... it should be a comprehensive division, furnished with adequate numbers of stops of ALL classes, including strings. But for the LITERATURE and SERVICE-PLAYING in the "grand manner", the MOST important thing is the "Full Swell to Reeds" sound, which needs to include chorus reeds at 16-8-4; the box must be thick enough and tight enough to make that characteristic "banked fires of hell" sound essential to French romantic organ literature.   French romantic literature requires the "Quatre Fonds" on all THREE manual divisions, in order to make the stop-crescendo from Bourdon to Violoncelle to Flute Harmonique to Montre, and to bridge the dynamic gap between the Bourdon and the Montre. As I recall, your organ was deficient in that department, but that's certainly not unusual. We've discussed before on this list that even large American DIGITAL instruments often lack the all-important 8' diapason and 8' open flute on the Swell and Choir/Positive/whatever, when there's NO financial or spatial reason NOT to include them.   NONE of this dictates the kind of ACTION required, and indeed most of the literature I'm talking about was composed for tracker or Barker lever action to SLIDER windchests. There's all the difference in the world between the English-German-French SYMPHONIC organ and the American ORCHESTRAL organ as built by E.M. Skinner and others; though Skinner in his best work never completely abandoned the choruses and mixtures. they were usually included only in his larger organs. But it's instructive that HE insisted on a comprehensive Swell, even at the expense of the other divisions at times.   On the other hand, if electric action IS necessary (and it IS is some churches), THAT doesn't necessarily preclude traditional encased placement. The urge to scatter the organ to the four corners of a room should be resisted. Just because one can DO it doesn't mean that one SHOULD do it. An organ is a cohesive musical instrument. The spacial differentiation should be accomplished WITHIN a single location, by use of the Rueckpositiv, encasement, etc.   A stop-list shouldn't be an organist's "dream list" ... oh, I know, it was fun to sit in the back of Music History 101 and draw up 5-manual behemoths when I was an undergraduate, but I've spent FAR more time trying to design a comprehensive 15-rank unit organ for St. Matthew's (grin) that will do what it needs to do and fit into the space available. Before everybody flames me, the unit organ will become the chancel organ in the eventual main church, and we will build a "straight" organ for the west gallery. We've done the best we could with the pipes, space, and money we have. No rank is unified at an adjacent pitch.   It should be noted that we CONSIDERED building a STRAIGHT organ of 15 stops, but that would have been pretty limited for accompanying a "high" Victorian Anglican choral service, and that's what our organ will have to DO. A straight organ of 5 Swell stops (8 flute-8 gemshorn-4 principal-mixture-Oboe), 5 Great stops (8 principal-8 flute-4 octave-mixture-Trumpet) and 5 Pedal stops (16 Sub Bass-8 Octave Bass-4 Chorale Bass-16-8 reeds) ... well, *I* COULD play that kind of organ, but I don't think the CONGREGATION would care for it, and THEY'RE paying for it (grin).   I considered some digital BASSES for reasons of space (our pipe organ project came about AFTER the plans for the new church were already out to bid, despite my best efforts, and going through the whole permit process AGAIN was not something that the Vestry OR I wanted to tackle), but I ultimately rejected them in favour of borrowing the bottom octave of the Swell 8' Diapason from the Gedeckt + Viole, haskelling some pedal pipes, installing 12 independent quint pipes for the Resultant so it can be tuned true, etc.   There WERE some needless duplications in your spec, as I recall, and the omissions I noted above. Most of those could be remedied by simply changing out things ... omitting the second celeste in the Choir in favour of an 8' Diapason, replacing the Trumpet en chamade with a Great chorus Trumpet, etc.   Again I appeal to the literature. Terrace dynamics in French organ music require chorus reeds on Recit, Positif, and Grand Orgue. Positif chorus reeds in this country are as scarce as asparagus in January; it's a BIG mistake to make the ONLY Great reed a Chamade. For one thing, you can't play it against full Swell + Great, unless you duplex it to the Choir (which I think your spec did). But the problem of no chorus Trumpet on the Great remains.   I'm not going to get into the combo organ debate ... PERHAPS no real HARM is done if you want to augment an already-COMPLETE pipe organ with digital celestes, an echo organ, specialty solo reed stops, 32's, things like that ... AS LONG AS the pipe organ is complete in and of itself, and the digital stops won't be COMBINED with the pipework, for the most part.   There IS a certain LOGIC to laying out an organ, no matter WHAT style of voicing: principal choruses, cornet(s) and reed choruses, flute choruses, and finally the string(s), if any. The LITERATURE dictates THAT. It's not a whim on the part of organ-builders OR organists. It simply IS.   For example, Moller had a habit of building the Oboe at 4' in the Swell .... why, I don't know ... to save money? Franck requires Hautbois *8'* + the fonds. How are you to achieve that? MAYBE by sub-coupler and unison off, IF there's a 4' principal, 4' flute AND 4' string in the Swell. But then what happens when you want to bring on the REST of the Swell reeds? You have to take off the sub-coupler and the unison off, and the color of the Oboe AT 8' PITCH disappears. In addition, an Oboe at 4' CANNOT substitute for a 4' Clarion ... if it's voiced big enough TO do that, then it's voiced too big to be an OBOE.   I totally agree that the German neo-baroque movement in organ-building dealt a serious blow to the organ's popularity, except in those places where it was done RIGHT. On the other hand, it DID force Americanbuilders to "clean up their act." Unfortunately what they DIDN'T get was the differences in acoustics and size of European churches vs. "dead" American churches. Baroque organs in Europe DON'T "scream"; nor do they "chiff" like xylophones. Articulate pipe speech is REQUIRED in those vast, reverberant buildings, but you DON'T hear it DOWNSTAIRS. But Amrican builders planted un-nicked pipes on exposed "flower boxes" and pitched their mixtures at supersonic levels, willy-nilly. Those big European churches can absorb ENORMOUS amounts of highs; a dead American church CAN'T.   Once again, I appeal for folks to go back to the BEST of our OWN historic AMERICAN instruments ... Hook et al KNEW how to deal with dead American churches, and it wasn't rocket science -- strengthen the bass, widen the scales, rein in the trebles, and give the stops enough harmonic development that endless ranks of breaking-glass mixtures aren't REQUIRED for clarity OR colour.   I'M still waiting for someone to build an historical copy of the Hook in the Immaculate Conception in Boston (grin).   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: DOESNT GET IT From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 21:14:05 -0500   > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not = understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.   --B_3130089246_57728283 Content-type: text/plain; charset=3D"ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable   On 3/9/03 7:29 PM, "Daryl Robinson" <drobinson@houston.rr.com> wrote:   > If YOU say I dont get it.............go ahead and explain. You guys are = d=3D oing > great at just making statements that make no sense. So PLEASE OH PLEASE = g=3D reat > one, explain it to me.......... > =3D20 > Daryl >=3D20 My goodness, Daryl. My guess is that you=3DB9ll get either (1) no reply; = or (2=3D ) a very gracious and helpful one. Not much room between them.   Zoloft,   Alan     --B_3130089246_57728283 Content-type: text/html; charset=3D"ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: DOESNT GET IT</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <FONT FACE=3D3D"Times New Roman">On 3/9/03 7:29 PM, &quot;Daryl = Robinson&quot; =3D &lt;drobinson@houston.rr.com&gt; wrote:<BR> <BR> </FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D3D"Arial">If YOU say I = dont get =3D it.............go ahead and explain. You guys are doing great at just = making=3D statements that make no sense. So PLEASE OH PLEASE great one, explain it = to=3D me..........<BR> </FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D3D"Times New Roman"> <BR> </FONT><FONT SIZE=3D3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D3D"Arial">Daryl<BR> </FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D3D"Times New Roman"><BR> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D3D"Times New Roman">My goodness, Daryl. = &nbsp;=3D My guess is that you&#8217;ll get either (1) no reply; or (2) a very = graciou=3D s and helpful one. &nbsp;Not much room between them.<BR> <BR> Zoloft,<BR> <BR> Alan<BR> </FONT> </BODY> </HTML>     --B_3130089246_57728283--    
(back) Subject: Whew From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 21:23:45 -0500   > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not = understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.   --B_3130089825_57763121 Content-type: text/plain; charset=3D"ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable   Daryl, I don=3DB9t know what to say.   I think you=3DB9re being a rude ass. I think you=3DB9re getting both = =3DB3skruu yuu=3DB2 replies and very carefully thought out replies in immense detail. Take = you=3D r pick. If you don=3DB9t find what you want, go someplace else.   Alan   --B_3130089825_57763121 Content-type: text/html; charset=3D"ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Whew</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <FONT FACE=3D3D"Times New Roman">Daryl, I don&#8217;t know what to = say.<BR> <BR> I think you&#8217;re being a rude ass. &nbsp;I think you&#8217;re getting = b=3D oth &#8220;skruu yuu&#8221; replies and very carefully thought out replies = i=3D n immense detail. &nbsp;Take your pick. &nbsp;If you don&#8217;t find what = y=3D ou want, go someplace else.<BR> <BR> Alan</FONT> </BODY> </HTML>     --B_3130089825_57763121--    
(back) Subject: Re: Whew From: "Daryl Robinson" <drobinson@houston.rr.com> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 20:29:04 -0600   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_001C_01C2E67A.86CA03E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   WhewYOur right, I am an ass.........whats your point? I think its STUPID = =3D for someone to make a comment and then not back it up, you dont =3D agree???????????? And Im not an ass all the time, I have to be nice =3D sometimes............... ;)   Daryl ----- Original Message -----=3D20 From: Alan Freed=3D20 To: PipeChat=3D20 Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 8:23 PM Subject: Whew     Daryl, I don't know what to say.   I think you're being a rude ass. I think you're getting both "skruu =3D yuu" replies and very carefully thought out replies in immense detail. = =3D Take your pick. If you don't find what you want, go someplace else.   Alan ------=3D_NextPart_000_001C_01C2E67A.86CA03E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Whew</TITLE> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1141" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>YOur right, I am an ass.........whats = =3D your point? I=3D20 think its STUPID for someone to make a comment and then not back it up, = =3D you dont=3D20 agree???????????? And Im not an ass all the time, I have to be nice=3D20 sometimes............... ;)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Daryl</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=3D20 style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =3D black"><B>From:</B>=3D20 <A title=3D3Dacfreed0904@earthlink.net=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:acfreed0904@earthlink.net">Alan Freed</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =3D title=3D3Dpipechat@pipechat.org=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org">PipeChat</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 09, 2003 = =3D 8:23=3D20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Whew</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3D3D"Times New Roman">Daryl, I don=3D92t know = =3D what to=3D20 say.<BR><BR>I think you=3D92re being a rude ass. &nbsp;I think = you=3D92re =3D getting both=3D20 =3D93skruu yuu=3D94 replies and very carefully thought out replies in = =3D immense detail.=3D20 &nbsp;Take your pick. &nbsp;If you don=3D92t find what you want, go =3D someplace=3D20 else.<BR><BR>Alan</FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_001C_01C2E67A.86CA03E0--    
(back) Subject: Re: Whew From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 21:40:13 -0500   > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not = understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.   --B_3130090813_57822554 Content-type: text/plain; charset=3D"ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable   On 3/9/03 9:29 PM, "Daryl Robinson" <drobinson@houston.rr.com> wrote:   YOur right, I am an ass.........whats your point? >=3D20 > I think its STUPID for someone to make a comment and then not back it = up,=3D you > dont agree???????????? >=3D20 > =3D80=3D80=3D80I don=3DB9t really recall, but I thought you ASKED for = comment/opinion. D=3D id > you then ask, pretty-please for backup/rationale? You know, like = =3DB3polite=3D =3DB2? >=3D20 > And Im not an ass all the time, I have to be nice = sometimes..............=3D .. ;) > =3D20 Well, I should think so. And I=3DB9ll bet you are. But I don=3DB9t think = anyone asked what you think. But good luck on the project.   Alan   --B_3130090813_57822554 Content-type: text/html; charset=3D"ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: Whew</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <FONT FACE=3D3D"Times New Roman">On 3/9/03 9:29 PM, &quot;Daryl = Robinson&quot; =3D &lt;drobinson@houston.rr.com&gt; wrote:<BR> <BR> </FONT><FONT SIZE=3D3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D3D"Arial">YOur right, I am an = ass.........wh=3D ats your point? <BR> </FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D3D"Arial"><BR> I think its STUPID for someone to make a comment and then not back it up, = y=3D ou dont agree???????????? <BR> <BR> =3D80=3D80=3D80I don&#8217;t really recall, but I thought you ASKED for = comment/opinion=3D .. &nbsp;Did you then ask, pretty-please for backup/rationale? &nbsp;You = know=3D , like &#8220;polite&#8221;? &nbsp;<BR> <BR> And Im not an ass all the time, I have to be nice sometimes............... = =3D ;)<BR> </FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D3D"Times New Roman"> <BR> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D3D"Arial">Well, I = should think =3D so. &nbsp;And I&#8217;ll bet you are. &nbsp;But I don&#8217;t think anyone = a=3D sked what you think. &nbsp;But good luck on the project.<BR> <BR> Alan</FONT></FONT> </BODY> </HTML>     --B_3130090813_57822554--    
(back) Subject: Re: daryl's spec, and Seb's comments (LONG) From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 21:51:00 EST   In retrospect, I was my usual presumptuous self. It looks great.  
(back) Subject: Re: daryl's spec, and Seb's comments (LONG) From: "Daryl Robinson" <drobinson@houston.rr.com> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 20:59:48 -0600   Not sure exactly how to reply to that, so...........I'll just say a = hesitant THANKS. Not sure if that was your honest opinion or not, but thats ok.................Sorry for the quarrel. I really am a nice guy and Ive just been a little stressed to say the least with getting this project = done. We must be doing something right to have raised about $150,000 in a year = for the organ. Not to mention the already purchased Moller pipe organ thats in storage, not my first choice. But better than installing it then ripping = it out and re-installing it in 2-hopefully 5 years.   -Daryl   ----- Original Message ----- From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 8:51 PM Subject: Re: daryl's spec, and Seb's comments (LONG)     > In retrospect, I was my usual presumptuous self. > It looks great. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: ANOTHER RANT From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 22:53:36 EST   In a message dated 3/9/03 6:58:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, drobinson@houston.rr.com writes:   <It is NO wonder that the organ is a dying species...........all of these academic STUCK up types that want to build historically ACCURATE organs = get all upset when something NEW is introduced.>   Part of the problem with the pipe organ becoming less popular is the = seeming desire for LACK of culture in our society. It's now cool to be crass = and uneducated, and surface poor. This is evidenced in our religious rites = as well as music. Add to that the tendency of people to listen to CDs = rather than live concerts (except for the loud, smoke filled ones in sports = arenas!) and it starts to make sense.     <I wouldnt exactly say that at the time Silbermann was building organs = that his were very TRADITIONAL. I see the evolution of the digital organ as the =   NEXT step in the organ world. And hybrid organs are a great way to incorporate the old with the new.>   Silbermann was creative and innovative, but he was building pipe organs in = a way consistent with tradition. The evolution of digital instruments = might well be a step in the organ world, but I think it's a step down. But I don't condemn people for liking them (although I do feel sorry for them!). = Personally, I don't see combination organs as "great" in any way, except = for their pretty consoles!   <I would PREFER to have a well constructed beautiful pipe organ that costs =   over one million dollars, who wouldnt? BUT, the practicalness of many congregations putting that kind of value on a ORGAN is not practical at = this time. >   I think that your "one-million dollar" figure is part of what is = discouraging some churches from even considering a fine pipe organ. It's really very extravagant. Purchasing a multi-million dollar organ is just as = practical as building a multi-million dollar building that prevents good sound resonance and other things necessary to a good installation. Churches = that do this really don't need an organ, or any real music, except possible a large brass band.   <The congregation doesnt see the organ as a necessisty anymore partly, I believe, due to the academic rather BORING organists and the historically accurate MACHINES that they are playing on.>   I think you are very wrong here. Just consider the number of fine orchestral and non-baroque instruments that are being tossed out because = they are now using a praise band. It really has very little to do with the organ as an instrument. There is a mind-set that is trying to eliminate =   all things traditional. Look at the many buildings that have been = uglied-up so that the services could be "modern."     < Most the time I go to an organ recital and fall asleep because its unbelievably BORING. And I always think, WOW........that person would make = a great typist, all they did was get accuracy and play efficently. The organ =   has always had a prominent stage in history and the organ would probably = be worse off today if Virgil Fox and Diane Bish hadnt done and are doing to = help the organ. >   I notice that you left out E Power Biggs. But I'm curious... what DO you =   want to hear at an organ recital? There are many things that I = considered "boring" until I gave them a chance, studied and learned about them, and continued to try to grow. Granted, there are still some things that I consider boring and unenjoyable.     <My overall point I suppose is that I think the fall of the organ in this country atleast, and possibly others (Havent looked into that too much) is =   partly if not mostly to blame on those that play it........the organist. >   I think that this is a gross generalization. Pipe organs, as well as = other forms of classical music, have never been "the most popular" forms. As = our society continues to move toward the "running with the crowd" mind-set, = it's really not a surprise that something unique would suffer in popularity.     <Im sure there will be several harsh comments made about this e-mail and not everyone will agree, but it is my OPINION and I expressed it. Which in = this church related business seems like a BAD thing to do.......but I do it anyway. >   What IS a bad thing to do is to make sweeping generalizations and lump = people who do not agree with you in negative categories. As well, as long as people continue to strive for the biggest and the cheapest, and the glitziest, the pipe organ will continue to have significant competition. = Pipe organs may become extinct in the future but, what the hell, the world = is going to end anyway!       Bruce, with Miles, Molly and Degui in the Muttastery at Howling Acres http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502  
(back) Subject: Re: ANOTHER RANT From: <Chicaleee@aol.com> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 22:57:35 EST     --part1_a9.3b08324b.2b9d672f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Daryl, I read a quote recently, "Music styles come and music styles go, leaving behind the best of each style as they exit. It is up to the professional church musician to glean the chaff from the wheat, so to = speak, seeking out only the very best to bring praise to our Lord." Lee   --part1_a9.3b08324b.2b9d672f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#400040" SIZE=3D3D2 = FAMILY=3D =3D3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D3D"Arial" LANG=3D3D"0">Daryl, I read a quote = recently, "Mu=3D sic styles come and music styles go, leaving behind the best of each style = a=3D s they exit.&nbsp; It is up to the professional church musician to glean = the=3D chaff from the wheat, so to speak, seeking out only the very best to = bring=3D20=3D praise to our Lord."&nbsp; Lee</FONT></HTML>   --part1_a9.3b08324b.2b9d672f_boundary--  
(back) Subject: "Daryl's Rant" From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 22:16:42 -0600   Daryl said: "Most the time I =3D go to an organ recital and fall asleep because its unbelievably BORING. = =3D And I always think, WOW........that person would make a great typist, =3D all they did was get accuracy and play efficently."   Well, Daryl, in many respects I have to agree. I LOVE the organ; it is = far and away my favorite instrument to play AND hear, but so often recitals = have pieces by little known and lesser composers in the larger classical world. And so often, they do not strike the average person as particularly melodic--frankly, a good bit of it sounds like someone simply mashing down fistfuls of keys in discordant patterns (indeed, many of us have heard of those pieces where a board is literally pressed across all the keys on a manual--now how "musical" can that possibly be?).   No, I'm NOT a cultural philistine; I love classical music in general and organ music in particular, but I can tell you unequivocally that the = average person is NOT going to be inspired by about 80% of the stuff I see programmed at recitals. That may be unfortunate, but it's also simply = fact.   Dennis Steckley   This world in arms is not spending money alone; it is spending the sweat = of the laborers, the genius of the scientists, and the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.--Dwight Eisenhower