PipeChat Digest #3535 - Tuesday, March 11, 2003
 
Long RE: OUR BEST?
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve>
leathered lips question
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve>
leather and soot
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: it's all in what you're USED to
  by <Chicaleee@aol.com>
New compositions online
  by "Stephen Barker" <steve@ststephenscanterbury.freeserve.co.uk>
Kola Owalabi, David Dahl. and Ann Rigler at OHS convention
  by "MARAUDER" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
RE: it's all in what you're USED to
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
"United", NOT "Untied" -- !!
  by "MARAUDER" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
Re: leather and soot
  by "Luther Melby" <lmelby@prtel.com>
Re: Oboe
  by <Icedad@aol.com>
Re: TWO OR THREE MANUALS?
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: TWO OR THREE MANUALS?
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: leathered lips question
  by "D. Keith Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com>
Re: leathered lips question
  by "D. Keith Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com>
 

(back) Subject: Long RE: OUR BEST? From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:01:26 -0400   Andres Gunther agun@telcel.net.ve   Although I respect and support fully Keith Morgan's and other members' opinion, Richard Jordan put in a few points that are worth to be read and taken into consideration by all of us.   As student and newly degreed organist I never thought that it would be possible to play "pop" or "folclore/ethnic" on a pipe organ- until the organist of the german lutheran church in Caracas showed me that this is perfectly possible, given you have an organ with quick response and bright stops (on victorian instruments it would be much more difficult!)- The difficulty to do this resides more in us organists who have an = internal barrier that is almost impossible to tumble down- I couldn't to this date! :) ;but I will have to if I want to conserve my position as church = organist because music taste and appreciation is subjected to great changes in my country. See below for more...   It was interesting to know that Youth Worships are not better attended = than "traditional". - I cannot judge from a desk that is 4000 miles away from US, but we face a similar problem here. So, my devil's advocate opinion is that it's not the *music* but the *ambience* that fails. Here, Churches where the pastor or parish are full time available, listen to the problems of their parishioners and approach them in Mass or Worship get = full houses in *both* Youth and Traditional Services. If a pastor or parish comes who hides in the parish house like in a fortress, travels around almost all of time, devotes himself to administration and not pastoral duties leaving them to secretaries, vicars or volunteers the church empties quickly. People don't feel approached- I have seen that more than once.   All this falls into religion, not organ music... touche. Fortunatedly pipechat covers an ample field... I subscribed to it just for this reason and use Piporg exclusively for in- technical matters. The present topic (which for sure wasn't intended to roar against another instrument) = uncovers the problem we face that the King of Instruments could be become a dying species- or that organ history is on a "down trend". For this, I consider = it important to be discussed on Organ Lists, as long as we don't "flame up" = :) So much for the complaining of a List member there.   What Richard writes about modern music appreciation is very interesting = for me. In Venezuela music or music appreciation isn't teached at all in schools. As many of you know, we have an extreme leftist-nationalistic government yet that encourages ethnic and folcloristic music over all = right now and tends to reject "clasical music" from Europe and "Rock", "Pop" or Jazz music as "foreign, implanted culture". Many of us artists fear that some day this will be law supported like it was done in Nazi Germany, Russia, China (Culture Revolution) and Cuba. Then, we only could bury ourselves along with our Cavaille-Coll organs... or emmigrate, if we can.   Food for thought again. Cheers Andres =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.      
(back) Subject: leathered lips question From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:03:01 -0400   Andres Gunther agun@telcel.net.ve   Keith Morgan wrote:   (SNIP) > It has three 8' Open > Diapasons in the great; the First 8' Open Diapason has > leathered lips and is cut unbelievably high.   I heard about this system but never saw or heard one "live". Questions:   *How did it influence the pipe sound?- What effect was achieved? *On which stops was it used? *Only on metal or on wood pipes too? *Was it for high or normal wind pressure? (the high cuts here suggests it was for high...) *When and where was it built or used? (Is it a typical american system or was it spreaded in other countries too?) *What kind of leather was used?   Private responses would be great, but perhaps other list members may be interested too...   Thanx in advance Andres        
(back) Subject: leather and soot From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:01:07 -0800   When we dismantled the Cincinnati Music Hall Hook/Austin, everything was coated with coal dust from the boilers below the organ in the basement (!).   I think preservation has less to do with soot and more to do with the quality of leather available 75-100 years ago, and the tanning method employed. We moved an 1890 Koehnken & Grimm in Cincinnati that still had PRISTINE pallet-leathers.   I think we have to face the fact that the air itself is considerably more TOXIC in 2003 than it was in the late 1800s - early 1900s, despite the widespread use of soft coal as a fuel.   Cheers,   Bud   Luther Melby wrote: > > The Kilgen 4 rank I installed had soot on everything and I wondered the > same thing, could this have helped preserve the leather, it was still = good. > since 1925. ( Well,, no it wasn't as good as new, ;o) > Luther > > -----Original Message----- > From: STRAIGHT <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> > To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Date: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 12:45 AM > Subject: Re: releathering Moller chests > > >Keep talking fellas. > > And everything that comes apart has black dust in it------years of > steam > >engine soot. > > You suppose that's a preservative? > > > >Grins, > >Diane S. > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: it's all in what you're USED to From: <Chicaleee@aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:58:08 EST     --part1_104.29ddb8ee.2b9f8bc0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Regarding the ticket for disturbing the peace, when I unknowingly played = the entire service over outside speakers, the case was dismissed. However, = the outside speakers were not used again. That was in 1965. The church is = now a mega church with a carillon. The doctor has since passed away. Lee   --part1_104.29ddb8ee.2b9f8bc0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#400040" SIZE=3D3D2 = FAMILY=3D =3D3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D3D"Arial" LANG=3D3D"0">Regarding the ticket for = disturbing=3D the peace, when I unknowingly played the entire service over outside = speake=3D rs, the case was dismissed.&nbsp; However, the outside speakers were not = use=3D d again.&nbsp; That was in 1965.&nbsp; The church is now a mega church = with=3D20=3D a carillon.&nbsp; The doctor has since passed away.&nbsp; = Lee</FONT></HTML>   --part1_104.29ddb8ee.2b9f8bc0_boundary--  
(back) Subject: New compositions online From: "Stephen Barker" <steve@ststephenscanterbury.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:18:44 -0000   Dear Pipechatters,   I have just put two new compositions online for anyone to download for free. You can find them at http://members.sibeliusmusic.com/sbarker/=20   'Spiritus Domini super me' is an anthem for SSATBB with S and T soloists (yes, large resources, I know!) and 'Descant to "Thou whose almighty word" (Moscow)' is a descant with fuller organ part. Both of these pieces were written for the Induction and Installation=A0of the new = Rector of St Stephen's Parish, and performed in the service last Tuesday (4th March).   You are welcome to use either of them (Spiritus Domini super me might be suitable for Pentecost for those of you thinking that far ahead!, or a Confirmation service). All I ask is that you let me know if you are going to give either of them a go!   Incidentally, if anyone has used any of my compositions before, would you mind just dropping me an email because I like to keep track of where they might be being performed, just for personal interest - don't worry - I'm not going to pop up and demand performance fees or anything!   Yours,   Stephen Barker Organist and Choirmaster, St Stephen's Church Canterbury, UK    
(back) Subject: Kola Owalabi, David Dahl. and Ann Rigler at OHS convention From: "MARAUDER" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:42:53 -0500   Thought you might be intrested:   Kola Owalabi, Toronto native and master's candidate with Martin Jean at Yale, will play the untouched 1892 Steere in Bellefonte PA during the OHS convention. His program:   Mendelssohn Sonata No. 3   HYMN: "Aus tiefer Not schrei ich zu dir"   Schumann Canon No. 4 in A-Flat   Wm. Russell Vonuntary IV   Owalabi O Give Thanks To the Lord (from his _Portraits from the Psalms_)   Owalabi was, of course, runner-up in the national AGO performance competition last summer at Philadelphia.     David Dahl, recently retired from Pacafic Lutheran, will also play in Bellefonte on a Hook & Hastings at Trinity Untied Methodist Church:   Buxtehude Pre & Fue in F ( a SPLENDID little piece!!)   Dahl Concerto Voluntary -- Homage to John Stanley (Hmm., David, what's this??!!)   Calvin Hampton: "America, the Beautiful"   HYMN "America the Beautiful"   Haydn Allegro in C for Clock Organ   Grieg The Last Spring   Dubois Toccata in G (the favorite one)   Since the churches may not seat the entire convention at one time, each guy will play twice, with the convention "changing classes" across and slightly up the street from each other.   Earlier that day Ann Rigler, June Miller's replacement at Penn State -- June has retired :-) -- will play the restored Charles D=FCrner in Boalsburg= , an organ which a long-ago relative of mine caused to be purchased there. Her program:   Mendelssohn Prelude in G   Arthur Foote Canzonetta, Op. 71. No. 4   John Knowles Paine Concert Variations on the Austrian Hymn   And guess what the audience hymn will be with the D=FCrner?? !! :-)   Cordially,   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA  
(back) Subject: RE: it's all in what you're USED to From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:02:59 -0500   Bud wrote:   > Robert, it's like riding a bicycle. If you do it from the cradle onward > (as I did), it's as natural as breathing ... my choir sings at LEAST > half the Mass from MEMORY (chuckle).   True. From Proverbs: "Bring up a child in the way that he should go, and = he will not depart from it." I still know the 1940 hymnal better than I've ever found my way around the 1982 hymnal, even though I spent hours compiling a biblical index for it before publication.   But another anecdote:   A rector had just returned from a half-year sabbatical fearing that he hadn't officiated or celebrated a liturgy for so long that he was going to mess it up.   The associate rector reassured him: Don't worry; you'll find it's just = like riding a bicycle.   Then the rector replied: That's the trouble, Lou. When I learned to ride = a bicycle, we had the 1928 prayer book!     Andres Guenther writes:   > In venezuelan catholic church music service the organist has to sit at = the organ, sing all chants and accompany himself on the instrument. I do that since I was fifteen without an extra thought.   That's about my experience, too-- I usually didn't *need* to be a soloist or sing at all, but I wanted to do so, thought that it contributed to hymn-playing to sing along, and enjoyed the challenge. The great masters could all do such. Didn't people express amazement at Bach's vitality playing, conducting, singing all at once? And Bruhns, seated at the organ, would play the violin and accompany himself on the pedals.   But, alas, it doesn't necessarily get easier with age. I now probably = play the hymns better if I *don't* divide my attention. That probably wasn't true before.      
(back) Subject: "United", NOT "Untied" -- !! From: "MARAUDER" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:22:20 -0500   O.K. My face is redder than usual! :-( And I guess I deserve all the bad lines I'm sure to get for my typing error!   My apolgoies to all persons of United Methodist persuasion: I really = do know that it's NOT the "Untied Methodist church." Mea culpa.!!   I'd like to think I play the organ better than I play the computer keyboard. :-)   The Guy With the Red Face in Lancaster PA  
(back) Subject: Re: leather and soot From: "Luther Melby" <lmelby@prtel.com> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:51:10 -0600   To be serious, I have to agree with you about the quaility of the old leather. Is anyone tanning leather in the USA now, or did the regulations chase them out? The tanning solutions, I've heard, are very toxic. Luther   -----Original Message----- From: quilisma@socal.rr.com <quilisma@socal.rr.com> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 1:24 PM Subject: leather and soot     >When we dismantled the Cincinnati Music Hall Hook/Austin, everything was >coated with coal dust from the boilers below the organ in the basement >(!). > >I think preservation has less to do with soot and more to do with the >quality of leather available 75-100 years ago, and the tanning method >employed. We moved an 1890 Koehnken & Grimm in Cincinnati that still had >PRISTINE pallet-leathers. > >I think we have to face the fact that the air itself is considerably >more TOXIC in 2003 than it was in the late 1800s - early 1900s, despite >the widespread use of soft coal as a fuel. > >Cheers, > >Bud > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Oboe From: <Icedad@aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:03:37 EST     --part1_35.34c45acc.2b9fa929_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Hello List,   My 18 year old daughter has been playing oboe since age 8. She is a =   marvelous player and is very talented. She has studied with Dr Ann Adams = at Stetson University for several years. I am so fortunate to have an oboist = in the family. I always have a principal oboe in my church orchestra. She = will be attending university in the fall and plans to major in nuclear engineering. She would never be a music major, since she has been raised with = two full-time musicians. LOL She does plan to continue to play in ensemble = and orchestra. She has been offered scholarship money to play oboe at the university level, even if she does not major in music.   Peace,   Dan Port Orange, Fl   --part1_35.34c45acc.2b9fa929_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D3 = FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D =3D3D"Tw Cen MT" LANG=3D3D"0">Hello List,<BR> <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; My 18 year old daughter has been = playin=3D g oboe since age 8. She is a marvelous player and is very talented. She = has=3D20=3D studied with Dr Ann Adams at Stetson University for several years. I am so = f=3D ortunate to have an oboist in the family. I always have a principal oboe = in=3D20=3D my church orchestra. She will be attending university in the fall and = plans=3D20=3D to major in nuclear engineering. <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; She would never be a music major, = since=3D she has been raised with two full-time musicians. LOL&nbsp; She does plan = t=3D o continue to play in ensemble and orchestra. She has been offered = scholarsh=3D ip money to play oboe at the university level, even if she does not major = in=3D music. <BR> <BR> Peace,<BR> <BR> Dan<BR> Port Orange, Fl&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></HTML>   --part1_35.34c45acc.2b9fa929_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: TWO OR THREE MANUALS? From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:08:49 +1300     >Try playing a trio sonata on a 22-rank Wurlitzer.   I've heard such, and it was wonderful. With that many ranks, there will be masses of little combinations that balance and work a treat. Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: TWO OR THREE MANUALS? From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:10:47 +1300     >Hey! And you can play Couperin and de Grigny on a >Wurlitzer to great effect. Can't do THAT on a Harrison >& Harrison. >:) Regards, >Colin Mitchell UK   Hey, I agree with this, too, and have given a recital of classic French on = a 3/16 WurliTzer. After all, the WurliTzer is direct in the line of succession, tonally and design-wise, through classic French and Cavaille-Coll. Wonderful stuff. Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: leathered lips question From: "D. Keith Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:52:26 -0800 (PST)   Dear Andr=E9s:   The organ is a Wicks organ built in 1949, and is in what was once the Gaston Avenue Baptist Church in Dallas Texas. The church built a new building and now has a 2-manual Allen electronic, and the original building is now the Criswell College. The new church is now the Gaston Oaks Baptist Church.   There are two leather-lipped stops in that organ both of which are metal - the 8' First Open Diapason on the Great which is on 4" wind pressure, and the 8' Stentorphone on the Solo, which is on 8" (?). The high cutups give them a very loud, flutey, sound which is very thick and unsuited to contrapuntal playing. They are also very heavily nicked.   This organ does not have any wooden pipes with leather lips. I have seen such pipes in other organs, mostly theatre organs.   The only thing I've found these stops usable for is for solo playing with the tremolo. They work very well for that, but when it comes to chords, you get a very thick blob of sound in which you can't tell what is going on especially when you are playing anything contrapuntal.   There is also an 8' Doppelfl=F6te in the Great which is a lovely solo stop, but is absolutely useless as a great 8' Flute.   The first time I tuned this organ, it was almost =BD step flat, and all celestes (there are 4) were tuned mostly flat, with some notes tuned sharp. Needless to say, the celestes were totally ineffective. I tuned them sharp (except the Unda Maris), and they are absolutely gorgeous. The Unda Maris pipes are too long to be tuned sharp. The only mixture is in the Swell, and is so soft that you can't hear it, but it has definite possibilities.   This organ has Wicks' direct electric action and does not have leather valres.   Over the years, we have learned more about organs and music, and none of us, including Wicks, build organs to this design -- high wind pressures, heavy nicking, high cutups, heavy metal (lead), large scales, etc.   The organ care is now entrusted to the local ATOS chapter, and they want to make a theatre organ out of it, so I doubt if anything worthwhile will be done to it.   Over the years, I have heard stories about this organ, but it is a typical product of the times. There are some really lovely stops in it, and what I'd like to put in are new principal choruses in the Great, Swell, Choir, and Pedal divisions, move the great 8' Doppelf=F6te to the solo, and get some decent flutes in these divisions, complete with a cornet, and the proper reeds. The fifth manual is the echo division, and this division is about as useful as a 32' Bombarde would be in a Positiv organ, so I'm not going to waste any time or money with the solo and echo divisions.   If I can do what I want, we will have a very nice 3-manual organ. For the time being, we are probably stuck with that 5-manual console.   D. Keith Morgan     --- Andr=E9s G=FCnther <agun@telcel.net.ve> wrote: > Andres Gunther > agun@telcel.net.ve > > Keith Morgan wrote: > > (SNIP) > > It has three 8' Open > > Diapasons in the great; the First 8' Open Diapason > has > > leathered lips and is cut unbelievably high. > > I heard about this system but never saw or heard one > "live". Questions: > > *How did it influence the pipe sound?- What effect > was achieved? > *On which stops was it used? > *Only on metal or on wood pipes too? > *Was it for high or normal wind pressure? (the high > cuts here suggests it > was for high...) > *When and where was it built or used? (Is it a > typical american system or > was it spreaded in other countries too?) > *What kind of leather was used? > > Private responses would be great, but perhaps other > list members may be > interested too... > > Thanx in advance > Andres > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >       __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: leathered lips question From: "D. Keith Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:52:58 -0800 (PST)   Dear Andr=E9s:   The organ is a Wicks organ built in 1949, and is in what was once the Gaston Avenue Baptist Church in Dallas Texas. The church built a new building and now has a 2-manual Allen electronic, and the original building is now the Criswell College. The new church is now the Gaston Oaks Baptist Church.   There are two leather-lipped stops in that organ both of which are metal - the 8' First Open Diapason on the Great which is on 4" wind pressure, and the 8' Stentorphone on the Solo, which is on 8" (?). The high cutups give them a very loud, flutey, sound which is very thick and unsuited to contrapuntal playing. They are also very heavily nicked.   This organ does not have any wooden pipes with leather lips. I have seen such pipes in other organs, mostly theatre organs.   The only thing I've found these stops usable for is for solo playing with the tremolo. They work very well for that, but when it comes to chords, you get a very thick blob of sound in which you can't tell what is going on especially when you are playing anything contrapuntal.   There is also an 8' Doppelfl=F6te in the Great which is a lovely solo stop, but is absolutely useless as a great 8' Flute.   The first time I tuned this organ, it was almost =BD step flat, and all celestes (there are 4) were tuned mostly flat, with some notes tuned sharp. Needless to say, the celestes were totally ineffective. I tuned them sharp (except the Unda Maris), and they are absolutely gorgeous. The Unda Maris pipes are too long to be tuned sharp. The only mixture is in the Swell, and is so soft that you can't hear it, but it has definite possibilities.   This organ has Wicks' direct electric action and does not have leather valres.   Over the years, we have learned more about organs and music, and none of us, including Wicks, build organs to this design -- high wind pressures, heavy nicking, high cutups, heavy metal (lead), large scales, etc.   The organ care is now entrusted to the local ATOS chapter, and they want to make a theatre organ out of it, so I doubt if anything worthwhile will be done to it.   Over the years, I have heard stories about this organ, but it is a typical product of the times. There are some really lovely stops in it, and what I'd like to put in are new principal choruses in the Great, Swell, Choir, and Pedal divisions, move the great 8' Doppelf=F6te to the solo, and get some decent flutes in these divisions, complete with a cornet, and the proper reeds. The fifth manual is the echo division, and this division is about as useful as a 32' Bombarde would be in a Positiv organ, so I'm not going to waste any time or money with the solo and echo divisions.   If I can do what I want, we will have a very nice 3-manual organ. For the time being, we are probably stuck with that 5-manual console.   D. Keith Morgan     --- Andr=E9s G=FCnther <agun@telcel.net.ve> wrote: > Andres Gunther > agun@telcel.net.ve > > Keith Morgan wrote: > > (SNIP) > > It has three 8' Open > > Diapasons in the great; the First 8' Open Diapason > has > > leathered lips and is cut unbelievably high. > > I heard about this system but never saw or heard one > "live". Questions: > > *How did it influence the pipe sound?- What effect > was achieved? > *On which stops was it used? > *Only on metal or on wood pipes too? > *Was it for high or normal wind pressure? (the high > cuts here suggests it > was for high...) > *When and where was it built or used? (Is it a > typical american system or > was it spreaded in other countries too?) > *What kind of leather was used? > > Private responses would be great, but perhaps other > list members may be > interested too... > > Thanx in advance > Andres > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >       __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com