PipeChat Digest #3661 - Thursday, May 8, 2003
 
Re: Outdoor Organs
  by <Steskinner@aol.com>
Re: Bethel Davis Knoche
  by "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com>
Re: Outdoor Pipe Organs
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Outdoor Pipe Organs
  by "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net>
Re: Outdoor Organs
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@classicorgan.com>
Lyon & Healy Diapason
  by "Steven Durham" <sdurham11@attbi.com>
Who killed the Roosevelt? Some facts... (xpost)
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Round Lake Auditorium
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
Re: Who killed the Roosevelt? Some facts... (xpost)
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@classicorgan.com>
Re: Outdoor Pipe Organs
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
Re: Who killed the Roosevelt?
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Who killed the Roosevelt?
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@classicorgan.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Outdoor Organs From: <Steskinner@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 06:52:43 EDT     --part1_1d3.937b20e.2beb90fb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 5/6/2003 3:16:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, glawn@jam.rr.com writes:   > The organ at Chatauqua was originally built by the Warren Co., a = Canadian > firm, in 1907. It was rebuilt and enlarged by Moller in the 30's, and = has > ongoing care. It is now 4 manuals and eighty-nine ranks.   ....and was totally rebuilt by Fischer Pipe Organs of Erie, PA in 1994 (or =   so), with new chests (OSI) and new relays (Artisan, I believe), and a = rebuilt console.   Steven Skinner Minister of Music First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA   --part1_1d3.937b20e.2beb90fb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D2 = FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D =3D3D"Arial" LANG=3D3D"0">In a message dated 5/6/2003 3:16:35 PM Eastern = Dayligh=3D t Time, glawn@jam.rr.com writes:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D3DCITE style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT=3D : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The organ at Chatauqua was = orig=3D inally built by the Warren Co., a Canadian firm, in 1907.&nbsp; It was = rebui=3D lt and enlarged by Moller in the 30's, and has ongoing care.&nbsp; It is = now=3D 4 manuals and eighty-nine ranks.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> ....and was totally rebuilt by Fischer Pipe Organs of Erie, PA in 1994 (or = so=3D ), with new chests (OSI) and new relays (Artisan, I believe), and a = rebuilt=3D20=3D console.<BR> <BR> Steven Skinner<BR> Minister of Music<BR> First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant<BR> Erie, PA</FONT></HTML>   --part1_1d3.937b20e.2beb90fb_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Bethel Davis Knoche From: "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 04:00:12 -0700 (PDT)   Dear Pipechatters,   I was so pleased that mention was made on this list of the passing of Bethel D. Knoche.   Yes, I was able to listen to her programs before John Obetz became the organist... and for some reason the organ under Ms. Knoche sounded much better... The microphone did not seem to be placed nearly so close, and there seemed to be some reverberation in the building of the RCLDS in Independence, Missouri.   I often wondered why she was replaced (by John Obetz), because she certainly played in a very competent way. Perhaps someone can reply to me individually off list and explain why. At any rate, I'm well aware of the fact that recording an organ program for broadcast each week is not that easy a task... and perhaps she just decided she would let someone else carry the mantle.   As one of her many admirers, I can only say, RIP... Your efforts were "well done, O faithful servant.   Best wishes to all...     Morton Belcher fellow pipechat list member...   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   --- ProOrgo53@aol.com wrote: > Bethel D. Knoche =A0=A0 > > Bethel D. Knoche of Independence, MO, died April 27, > 2003, at home. > > Bethel was born December 24, 1919, in Arcadia, KS, > to Archie and Hazel > Frisbie Davis. She attended William Chrisman High > School, Graceland College, > Lamoni, Iowa, and Central Missouri State University, > Warrensburg, MO, where > she received her first organ performance degree. She > then pursued graduate > study in organ performance with Harold Gleason at > the Eastman School of Music > in Rochester, NY. > > Bethel was a life-long member and first Principal > Organist of the Community > of Christ (RLDS) world-headquarters Auditorium where > she oversaw the design > and installation of the AEolian-Skinner organ > completed in 1959. Originator > of the weekly, internationally aired, "THE > AUDITORIUM ORGAN," Mrs. Knoche > continued her recorded broadcasts through 1967 and > was then succeeded by Dr. > John Obetz. > > An adjunct instructor of organ performance at the > University of > Missouri-Kansas City for many years, Bethel Knoche > was a distinguished > composer, organ recitalist, and teacher; was > organist for denominational > music workshops and other events (local and distant) > -- including biennial > World Conference festival worship services and > international business > sessions; planned and coordinated an annual > "Auditorium Organ Recital > Series;" played organ continuo with orchestra for > Christmastide recording > performances of "Messiah" by the Independence > Messiah Choir (1959-1967). > Later, in addition to continuing her private organ > studio (which included > dozens of organ students over the years), Mrs. > Knoche was a beloved teacher > and music teacher in the Raytown, Missouri Public > Schools, who touched > hundreds of lives. > > She was preceded in death by her grandson, Trevor > McCracken (19), and is > survived by her husband of 56 years, Joseph T. > Knoche; daughter, Anne > McCracken, Jackson, TN; son, Joseph K. Knoche, > Independence, MO; > grandchildren, Kristen Clark, Elizabeth Salchow, Kip > Knoche, Amanda Knoche, > Tiffany Knoche; seven great-grandchildren; her > sister, Shirley Elliott, > Fremont, NE; and a host of friends and admirers from > around the world. > > > > > > > > >     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Outdoor Pipe Organs From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:36:55 +0100 (BST)   Hello,   In requiem pace..... eh?   This could only be America!   You should seriously consider reducing pressures and having the pipe-nicking rubbed (ground?) away.   I wonder what an open-foot Wurlitzer would sound like?   At least the organist wouldn't require a bomb-proof bunker!   :)   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- TheOrganst@aol.com wrote: > As the organist and curator of the Roosevelt > Memorial Park in Gardena, CA, I > can add that this particular organ may not be the > biggest or the oldest, but > it certainly is the loudest   __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus For a better Internet experience http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer  
(back) Subject: Re: Outdoor Pipe Organs From: "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net> Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 07:15:13 -0500   In all of this, no-one has mentioned the Round Lake Auditorium organ. The old 3M Ferris is under a roof, but there are no walls- so it's = considerably more "outdoor" than any of the other instruments mentioned.   Paul   http://www.sover.net/~popel/agomain.html      
(back) Subject: Re: Outdoor Organs From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@classicorgan.com> Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 09:28:21 -0400   --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_1464384= =3D=3D_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"; format=3Dflowed   At 06:52 AM 5/8/2003 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 5/6/2003 3:16:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >glawn@jam.rr.com writes: > >>The organ at Chatauqua was originally built by the Warren Co., a = Canadian >>firm, in 1907. It was rebuilt and enlarged by Moller in the 30's, and >>has ongoing care. It is now 4 manuals and eighty-nine ranks. > > >...and was totally rebuilt by Fischer Pipe Organs of Erie, PA in 1994 (or =   >so), with new chests (OSI) and new relays (Artisan, I believe), and a >rebuilt console. > >Steven Skinner >Minister of Music >First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant >Erie, PA   Hi,   The electronic relay running the Chatauqua organ is an Artisan-Classic relay, designed and made in Markham, Ont. Canada. Not to be confused = with Artisan in Washington State.   Arie V. --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_1464384= =3D=3D_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"us-ascii"   <html> At 06:52 AM 5/8/2003 -0400, you wrote:<br> <blockquote type=3Dcite cite><font size=3D2>In a message dated 5/6/2003 3:16:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, glawn@jam.rr.com writes:<br> <br> <blockquote type=3Dcite cite>The organ at Chatauqua was originally built = by the Warren Co., a Canadian firm, in 1907.&nbsp; It was rebuilt and enlarged by Moller in the 30's, and has ongoing care.&nbsp; It is now 4 manuals and eighty-nine ranks.</blockquote><br> <br> ....and was totally rebuilt by Fischer Pipe Organs of Erie, PA in 1994 (or so), with new chests (OSI) and new relays (Artisan, I believe), and a rebuilt console.<br> <br> Steven Skinner<br> Minister of Music<br> First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant<br> Erie, PA</font><font face=3D"arial"> </blockquote><br> Hi,<br> <br> The electronic relay running the Chatauqua organ is an Artisan-Classic relay,&nbsp; designed and made in Markham, Ont. Canada.&nbsp; Not to be confused with Artisan in Washington State.<br> <br> Arie V.</font></html>   --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_1464384= =3D=3D_.ALT--      
(back) Subject: Lyon & Healy Diapason From: "Steven Durham" <sdurham11@attbi.com> Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 06:57:35 -0700   List:   I have a Horn Diapason made by Lyon & Healy on my home organ and I have = some questions about it that I hope someone may be able to answer. It is a 4' set and notes 1-5 are zinc with the remainder being spotted metal. They have scroll tuners from tenor C to about 2'C. From there on out they have slide tuners. There is nicking in the 4' octave but no nicking from 2' C = on up. The pipes are playing on 2.75" WP and overall they sound pretty good. However, some of them have a very pronounced type of chiff or percussive sound they make when first played.   My question is this: Do any of you think these pipes may have been = altered at some point to be "Baroque" pipes? I was wondering if the absence of nicking from 2' C on up was normal for Lyon & Healy. Also, is it worth having these pipes revoiced as I want them to sound more like Aeolian Skinner Diapasons instead of Bosch? Does anyone have an idea of what an organ builder would charge to revoice a rank?   I'd appreciate any information you can provide.   Cordially,   Steven Durham sdurham11@attbi.com Portland, OR    
(back) Subject: Who killed the Roosevelt? Some facts... (xpost) From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 09:58:06 EDT   Dear List Members: I have been getting emails, both private and public, regarding yesterday's post, that prompt me to jog some memories and explain some of = the facts behind historic preservation efforts, and this instrument in = particular. As I very, very clearly stated, this is NOT a new situation. The critical nature of this situation was clearly explained to at least one of =   these lists, complete with a stoplist, by Keith Bigger on August 2 of last =   year. THAT'S NINE MONTHS, not last-minute. Back then, the church had electricity and its windows were intact. Of the many, many caring individual builders and organizations that continue to save, relocate, and restore fine pipe organs, the one that is = the best known, gets the most free publicity, has the most connections, and is =   the only one EVER mentioned in the press or on chat lists, says that they have been trying to place this organ for a decade. I have no way of verifying this, but they say that they have not had a serious taker. I = have no idea why. It contains the earliest domestically made strings stops = built to scales brought back from England by G.A. Audsley, tapered tierce = mixtures, tapered harmonic flutes, an extremely rare Roosevelt Pedal Trombone -- the =   works. During the nine critical months that the internet organ chat-community =   has had this solid information, I have dealt with two possibilities, both = of which looked promising (and neither of whom are posters). Digital photographs were taken, the pipes were surveyed for materials, = construction, and pipe makers' signatures, crates were built, and firm bids for removal, =   crating, and storage were made, as well as a total figure for a complete historic reconstruction. For both promising clients, including a wealthy university, the self-destruction of the American economy since January of 2000 proved to be too burdensome. They felt that they could not justify = the expense, despite many meetings, frantic phone calls, detailed faxes, and tense dinners with upper-level administrators. This process has NOT been passive...   The church that has owned the building for forty years built a very = fine, reverberant building across the street, and no expense was spared. = Although they had the Roosevelt, and were told for decades by the OHS, organ historians, and organbuilders of its peerless value, a fellow organist = sold their organist an electronic imitation, and their organist, in turn, convinced the church that it was okay -- after all, nobody can tell the difference, and an old pipe organ breaks down. The organists involved in = both the sale and purchase ends of that transaction have had no comment or involvement, and apparently do not care that this masterpiece will likely = be destroyed.   I have seen historic pipe organs reduced to unsalvageable debris while =   being "saved," because they have been piled in heaps in warehouses or = church towers. My firm invested in building fine crates for all but the 16' = gilded and stenciled facade, arranged for insurance, personnel, trucking, etc. Despite the offers from people to come get the organ with their wife = and stationwagon, it cannot be done that way. Removing organs on the cheap = often destroys them, too. Until you sit down with your management team, contractors, and shop staff, you cannot imagine what these things cost. = THEY ACTUALLY COST VERY LITTLE in relation to their true value, but these are = not five thousand dollar jobs. Liability insurance certificates, personnel = wages, workers' comp, fuel, lumber, temporary heat and power, meals, and rigging = are just a few of the things that contribute to the cost of removing an organ. =   Most people have no concept of what it takes to remove and crate an organ. Responsible organ companies rarely have the speculative resources to = save a large instrument without a client lined up. Such a maneuver might save = the organ, yet destroy the business. That is why organ companies hire business =   managers, attorneys, legal teams, and advisors. THE GREED FACTOR has been a real problem. Everybody surrounding this organ has wanted their pound of flesh. Everybody who saw an opportunity to =   make money was holding out for some money, for one reason or another. The organ was only of no value to the owners until they found out that they = could get money for it. Its musical value was not understood. My firm has a policy of giving a commission to anybody who gives our = name to a client that results in a contract. We have no representatives, but if =   somebody directs a church or other client to us, and we sign a contract, = our policy is to give a commission. The ONLY person who REFUSED any = compensation, or asked me to direct it to his chosen charity if we DID sign the = contract, was Keith Bigger -- the man who has been trying to save this organ for = years, and brought it to my attention last year, when the internet posts were = going back and forth about this organ. To those of you who have come to me with real leads, let us continue = to speak in private and see if we still have time to save this gem.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City  
(back) Subject: Round Lake Auditorium From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:04:56 -0400   Hi Paul and List,   As a veteran of many happy experiences at Round Lake, including once as recitalist, I must tell you there are walls, and while many of them can be opened up, for concerts, they are generally closed, to provide more of an acoustic, with perhaps one or two open on each side to help cool the place on warm days.   It's a great place. I believe the Albany convention, Region 2, I guess it = is called, will visit the Hall and the Ferris.   Cheers, Malcolm Wechsler www.mander-organs.com   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 8:15 AM Subject: Re: Outdoor Pipe Organs     > In all of this, no-one has mentioned the Round Lake Auditorium organ. = The > old 3M Ferris is under a roof, but there are no walls- so it's considerably > more "outdoor" than any of the other instruments mentioned. > > Paul > > http://www.sover.net/~popel/agomain.html      
(back) Subject: Re: Who killed the Roosevelt? Some facts... (xpost) From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@classicorgan.com> Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 11:29:53 -0400   At 09:58 AM 5/8/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Dear List Members: > I have been getting emails, both private and public, regarding >yesterday's post, that prompt me to jog some memories and explain some of = the >facts behind historic preservation efforts, and this instrument in = particular. > As I very, very clearly stated, this is NOT a new situation. The >critical nature of this situation was clearly explained to at least one = of >these lists, complete with a stoplist, by Keith Bigger on August 2 of = last >year. > THAT'S NINE MONTHS, not last-minute. > Back then, the church had electricity and its windows were intact. > Of the many, many caring individual builders and organizations that >continue to save, relocate, and restore fine pipe organs, the one that is = the >best known, gets the most free publicity, has the most connections, and = is >the only one EVER mentioned in the press or on chat lists, says that they >have been trying to place this organ for a decade. I have no way of >verifying this, but they say that they have not had a serious taker. I = have >no idea why. It contains the earliest domestically made strings stops = built >to scales brought back from England by G.A. Audsley, tapered tierce = mixtures, >tapered harmonic flutes, an extremely rare Roosevelt Pedal Trombone -- = the >works. > During the nine critical months that the internet organ = chat-community >has had this solid information, I have dealt with two possibilities, both = of >which looked promising (and neither of whom are posters). Digital >photographs were taken, the pipes were surveyed for materials, = construction, >and pipe makers' signatures, crates were built, and firm bids for = removal, >crating, and storage were made, as well as a total figure for a complete >historic reconstruction. For both promising clients, including a wealthy >university, the self-destruction of the American economy since January of >2000 proved to be too burdensome. They felt that they could not justify = the >expense, despite many meetings, frantic phone calls, detailed faxes, and >tense dinners with upper-level administrators. This process has NOT been >passive... > > The church that has owned the building for forty years built a very > fine, >reverberant building across the street, and no expense was spared. = Although >they had the Roosevelt, and were told for decades by the OHS, organ >historians, and organbuilders of its peerless value, a fellow organist = sold >their organist an electronic imitation, and their organist, in turn, >convinced the church that it was okay -- after all, nobody can tell the >difference, and an old pipe organ breaks down. The organists involved in = both >the sale and purchase ends of that transaction have had no comment or >involvement, and apparently do not care that this masterpiece will likely = be >destroyed. > > I have seen historic pipe organs reduced to unsalvageable debris = while >being "saved," because they have been piled in heaps in warehouses or = church >towers. My firm invested in building fine crates for all but the 16' = gilded >and stenciled facade, arranged for insurance, personnel, trucking, etc. > Despite the offers from people to come get the organ with their wife = and >stationwagon, it cannot be done that way. Removing organs on the cheap = often >destroys them, too. Until you sit down with your management team, >contractors, and shop staff, you cannot imagine what these things cost. = THEY >ACTUALLY COST VERY LITTLE in relation to their true value, but these are = not >five thousand dollar jobs. Liability insurance certificates, personnel = wages, >workers' comp, fuel, lumber, temporary heat and power, meals, and rigging = are >just a few of the things that contribute to the cost of removing an = organ. >Most people have no concept of what it takes to remove and crate an = organ. > Responsible organ companies rarely have the speculative resources to =   > save >a large instrument without a client lined up. Such a maneuver might save = the >organ, yet destroy the business. That is why organ companies hire business >managers, attorneys, legal teams, and advisors. > THE GREED FACTOR has been a real problem. Everybody surrounding = this >organ has wanted their pound of flesh. Everybody who saw an opportunity = to >make money was holding out for some money, for one reason or another. The >organ was only of no value to the owners until they found out that they = could >get money for it. Its musical value was not understood. > My firm has a policy of giving a commission to anybody who gives our =   > name >to a client that results in a contract. We have no representatives, but = if >somebody directs a church or other client to us, and we sign a contract, = our >policy is to give a commission. The ONLY person who REFUSED any = compensation, >or asked me to direct it to his chosen charity if we DID sign the = contract, >was Keith Bigger -- the man who has been trying to save this organ for = years, >and brought it to my attention last year, when the internet posts were = going >back and forth about this organ. > To those of you who have come to me with real leads, let us continue = to >speak in private and see if we still have time to save this gem. > >Sebastian M. Gluck   Sebastian,   If the organ is truly a treasure, then I believe we would see a stampede = to this place and have it removed. My guess is that even if the pipes are removed, the rest would cost more to re-build than to replace, that shouldn't cost that much to do.   I have a feeling that this organ is maybe more historical than musical. I =   know there isn't a huge demand for pipe organs, but surely if the pipes were superb, and could be gotten for very little compared to new pipe = work, there would be takers.   I think there is something missing in this puzzle that has not been = mentioned.   Arie V.      
(back) Subject: Re: Outdoor Pipe Organs From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:25:38 -0700   >Kyle: >I was unaware of this Mighty Wurlitzer and I appreciate your sharing >the site with me. >I was fascinated by all the information provided and it hurts to >hear of its condition. >Have you considered asking the ATOS for help in your endeavor? >Best, >Craig J. in Pa.   We currently have a large free storage space. how much space would it take = up?   John V  
(back) Subject: Re: Who killed the Roosevelt? From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:45:01 EDT       ARIE VANDENBERG, AN EXCLUSIVE AHLBORN-GALANTI DEALER and manufacturer of digital replacement organs, SAID:   "If the organ is truly a treasure, then I believe we would see a stampede = to this place. . . I have a feeling that this organ is maybe more historical than musical. I know there isn't a huge demand for pipe organs, but = surely if the pipes were superb, and could be gotten for very little compared to = new pipe work, there would be takers. . . I think there is something missing = in this puzzle that has not been mentioned."   AND THERE YOU HAVE IT, FOLKS.    
(back) Subject: Re: Who killed the Roosevelt? From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@classicorgan.com> Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 11:59:04 -0400   At 11:45 AM 5/8/2003 -0400, you wrote:     >ARIE VANDENBERG, AN EXCLUSIVE AHLBORN-GALANTI DEALER and manufacturer of >digital replacement organs, SAID: > >"If the organ is truly a treasure, then I believe we would see a stampede = to >this place. . . I have a feeling that this organ is maybe more historical >than musical. I know there isn't a huge demand for pipe organs, but = surely >if the pipes were superb, and could be gotten for very little compared to = new >pipe work, there would be takers. . . I think there is something missing = in >this puzzle that has not been mentioned." > >AND THERE YOU HAVE IT, FOLKS.     Hi Sebastian,   I'm not sure that what I do, has a whole lot to do with what the problem = is with this organ. Surely if this old Roosevelt is a gem, and could have been gotten for very little as is, there would be takers. If it is not that great, I think there would not be much demand.   Or, are you trying to say, that electronic organs are a whole lot better than you would care to admit, and that is the cause of the woes of this instrument?   Arie V.