PipeChat Digest #3709 - Thursday, May 29, 2003
 
Wicks, Kilgen
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
RE: Bach for church
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
Re: Untersatz...
  by <WiegandCJ@aol.com>
Re: Wicks, Kilgen
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
Re: Bach for church
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
Seattle Scot
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
RE: Bach for church
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
RE: Untersatz...
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
RE: Untersatz...
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
RE: 32' Bourdon
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
Re: Untersatz
  by "Thomas Mohr" <thomasmohr@aon.at>
Re: Untersatz, katz und alles!
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Untersatz, katz und alles!
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: Various
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Bach's Allabreve
  by <lindr@cch.com>
Re: Organ Clearing House, Wicks
  by "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@swbell.net>
Re: Untersatz, katz und alles!
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Untersatz
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
wicks
  by "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com>
Wicks and Willis
  by "Steven Durham" <sdurham11@attbi.com>
 

(back) Subject: Wicks, Kilgen From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:10:15 -0700       Keys4bach@aol.com wrote: > Poor poor wicks. > > Been around forever. Kept people working when others closed. > > New tonal director-new people running the ship-and the foresight to > offer the BEST of both worlds.   Yeah. Like, give 'em a chance (chuckle).   > > For this they remain vilified for past transgressions.     > EVERY old line builder somewhere along the line has built > busts...sometimes though poor planning OR late changes by church = builders.   Austin arrived to install the organ in St. Peter-in-Chains Cathedral in Cincinnati, only to discover the Archbishop had decided he didn't want it where it had been designed for (!). So it was split into three parts and shoved into the bell-tower in the back, and two mop-closets in the front (!!).   > > Being from St. Louis area originally, it amazes me to hear people hear > sing the praises of Kilgen's---plenty of bad organs---and not much nice > to say about Wicks.   Kilgen, like Aeolian-Skinner (to some extent), was a victim of their own success. They DID build some AMAZING organs, but after they built the Basilica, Little Flower, and St. Patrick's, they were FLOODED with orders, and the quality took a nose-dive.   > > Your toaster is still running and the original company deserves the > opportunity to have a go at it. > > By the way I sell electronics so I have NO nothing one way or the other > here. I do not care for combination organs except for 32 additions and > so on. > > You all keep up the stuff you are doing and get well all ye who are ill! > > dale >   The first thing I thought when I read BlueeyedBear's stoplist was, "OOOOH! All those EXPENSIVE 16' stops!!!" (chuckle)   Cheers,   Bud          
(back) Subject: RE: Bach for church From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 13:20:49 -0400   I feel pretty much the same as Harvey Grace, although in some cases for a different reason. I am rather mystified by his characterization of the expositions of some fugue expositions as too flippant for postludes, but = I'd agree with him that Bach fugues are not necessarily appropriate postludes because at least the greatest of them are simply too fine-- unless you are fortunate enough to have a congregation, such as the one at S. Clement's, with the common courtesy either to sit and listen to the postlude or to = keep their mouths shut until they've exited to the vestibule. Tossing a major Bach fugue out into a heedless racket *is* fraught with more = "impertinence" than one wants to contemplate: the conjunction simply makes my blood boil. From such occasions of sin (to quote the great litany) spare us, good = Lord, spare Thy people whom Thou hast redeemed with Thy Most Precious Blood... = and lead us not into temptation.   OTOH, I'd like to second Mr. Grace's nomination of the Allabreve in D. This piece is, perhaps, easily overlooked because, as one of Bach's earliest, it tends to appear in his editions among, relatively speaking, slight compositions. This versatile work makes a delightful prelude or communion voluntary if quietly registered. But played with majestic = breadth on _organo pleno_ it is also an utterly *magnificent* festival postlude! Try it sometime if you don't know it. I can't think of any occasion whatsoever that would be too grand for it, and have to think that this is how Bach heard and intended it.   Thanks be to Marie-Claire Alain's complete Bach recording in the 1960s-- = she plays it thus-- for turning me onto this piece in my student days, or I = too might have failed to discover it all these years.                                     'd agree with nearly everything   > -----Original Message----- > From: Markhedm@cs.com [SMTP:Markhedm@cs.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 10:43 AM > To: pipechat@pipechat.org > Subject: RE: Bach for church > > On the subject of what larger works of Bach would be good for playing in > church, I came > across a book called "The Complete Organist" by Harvey Grace, published = in > 1950. On > pages 140-141, in the chapter entitled Voluntaries, he discusses Bach. = He > writes: > > Another convention is that Bach's fugues are, ipso facto, good = postludes. > This is true of > only some of them. The giving out, with Great to Principal, of such > bright, rhythmical > subjects as those of the two G minor fugues, the great A minor, the D > major, or the C > major (following the toccata), always seems an impertinence, and even a > flippancy. The > very tunefulness of the subjects is the trouble. They seem to strike a > jarring note unless > introduced by a prelude. Fugues that are ideal as voluntaries, from the > manner of their > beginning, are the two in B minor, the little E minor, A major, F minor, > and two in C > major, the Eb, and most of all, the noble, melancholy work following the > "dorian" > toccata. Other works good for the purpose when something austere is in > keeping are both > fantasias in C minor, the Canzona, the prelude in F minor, and the Alla > Breve, and when > something bigger is required, the E minor prelude to the "Wedge" fugue, > the toccata in F, > and the preludes in B minor and C minor. The organ works of Bach (apart > from the > choral preludes) surely divide themselves into two classes. In one the > value is purely > musical; in the other (usually not less valuable as art work) the = composer > has obviously > laid himself out to give players an opportunity of showing their skill. > Such works as the D > major fugue, the D minor toccata, the "Wedge" fugue, the G major = fantasia, > and the Eb > prelude are surely recital pieces. If played in the style they seem to > demand, they are out > of place as voluntaries. Let us reserve them for recital purposes, amd > make them as > brilliant and exciting as possible. On the other hand, let us see to it > that we give our > congregations ample opportunities of knowing the other-and deeper- side of > Bach, by > fitting and frequent performance of his more serious fugues and choral > preludes." > >  
(back) Subject: Re: Untersatz... From: <WiegandCJ@aol.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 13:28:52 EDT   In einer eMail vom 29.05.03 18:43:44 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit = schreibt agun@telcel.net.ve:   > And yes: Untersatz is a platen to be put under a saucer or cup too :) > No, this is an "Untersetzer" ;-)   "Satz" has differnt meenings: a sentence is a "Satz", a setting is a = "Satz", a movement of a symphony or sonata is a "Satz", and a harmonization is a "Satz" too.   Carl  
(back) Subject: Re: Wicks, Kilgen From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 13:45:21 -0400   In a message dated 5/29/2003 12:10:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, = quilisma@socal.rr.com writes:   > The first thing I thought when I read BlueeyedBear's > stoplist was, > "OOOOH! All those EXPENSIVE 16' stops!!!" (chuckle)   bud, the preponderance of 16s & 8s is one thing i DO like very much about = this instrument. the only one that isn't real is the 16' swell reed. = it's just the 8' rewired, and the bottom octave isn't there, which drives = me nuts. at least the two manual 16s are full compass.   given the choice between an organ that's top-heavy or bottom-heavy, i'll = go with bottom-heavy any day. i knew an organist in memphis whose hearing = was damaged because of the placement of a very bad mixture being too close = to the console. she should have sued the church.  
(back) Subject: Re: Bach for church From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 13:48:29 -0400   i'm one of the lucky ones in that my congregation pretty much stays for = the postlude, and the ones who leave are quiet about it. part of their = stillness is due to the fact that i play quiet postludes as often as i = play boisterous ones. during lent i played barber's adagio as a postlude, = and got numerous compliments, most of them saying it was the perfect way = to end such a moving service.   ok, now someone tell me about this allabreve in D by bach... i'm not = familiar with that. what's the bwv #?  
(back) Subject: Seattle Scot From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 13:59:05 -0400   On 5/29/03 8:54 AM, "BlueeyedBear@aol.com" <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> wrote:   > dale, thanks for your e-mail. i'd love to have a great wicks in my = church.   Scot, you mentioned Seattle. Having grown up there, several generations ago, it caught my eye, and I was wondering "where" in Seattle.   Our home was on Linden Ave. (one block west of Aurora), at North 86th St.   Separate question: I hear that Phinney Ridge Lutheran Church, on = Greenwood Ave., has a newer and larger organ than the 1940s Moller they had when I = was there. No research project intended, but if you happen to know off the = top of your head, I'd be interested in hearing what they got.   Alan Freed now at www.stlukesnyc.org      
(back) Subject: RE: Bach for church From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:15:08 -0400   > ok, now someone tell me about this allabreve in D by bach... i'm not familiar with that. what's the bwv #?   BWV 589. It's in vol.1 of the Widor-Schweitzer edition (with the most youthful free pieces) and vol. 8 of the Peters edition. Others will have = to help with other editions.    
(back) Subject: RE: Untersatz... From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:20:52 -0400       > -----Original Message----- > From: littlebayus@yahoo.com [SMTP:littlebayus@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 3:07 AM > To: PipeChat > Subject: Untersatz... > > Mention was made recently in a post about an Untersatz > 32'... > > Is an Untersatz always made of metal? Or is it > sometimes made of wood? > > In what was is it like or not like a Bourdon? > > A sincere, inquiring mind would like to know... > > Best wishes to all... > > > Morton Belcher > > fellow list member... > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). > http://calendar.yahoo.com > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: RE: Untersatz... From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:34:26 -0400   The only Untersatz that I can recall playing was on the Schlicker practice organs at Lawrence. It was a wooden 16' pedal extension of the gedeckt, hence the largest pipe was about 8'. These organs being placed in = ordinary low-ceilinged rooms, hence the base of these pipes was therefore as close = to the floor as possible. In at least one case, it ingeniously served as, = er, a case-- framing the rest of the pipework on both sides, with the mouths = on the outside of the box they formed. It appeared that the right side of one pipe was the left side of the pipe next to it.   I inferred from this-- or did I actually hear it explained at some point-- that the name "Untersatz" suggests that the pipes are mounted on a chest approximately at floor level. Perhaps someone could verify or debunk.   Paul    
(back) Subject: RE: 32' Bourdon From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:15:59 -0400   Richard Schneider wrote:   >> i actually asked a tonal director if it was possible to stop a 16' open wood to make a 32' bourdon, and he said it was, but the result would not = be satisfactory.   > Uhm, he wrong.   I'm glad to hear it, after a little adventure some friends and I had one day.   I was in Salt Lake City for a few days in the early 1980s, visiting the late, lamented Stephen Ridgley Whitehouse, in whose enthusiastic and resourceful presence there never seemed to be a dull moment. He heard of = a 16' open wood across town available for the asking, or at most for a = nominal charge, provided that the new owner remove it himself, all on very short notice. So that is what he undertook to do that Sunday afternoon, with the intention of adding it to the St. Mark's Cathedral organ as a 32' bourdon. I found myself part of the ad hoc moving crew he assembled to load it onto = a small utility trailer. For about an hour we nearly broke our backs. Just as we finished loading the pipes, it started to rain (probably not that common a phenomenon in Utah).   Whether it was from the consequent haste on the road or from the fact that some of the pipes extended quite precariously from the rear of the = trailer, we were afraid of coming to the attention of The Authorities. Stephen = said defiantly, "If the police hassle us over this, we will know that God does not like 32' stops!" Well, I am happy to report that we returned with our cargo to the cathedral without incident, so the question of God's approval of 32' stops is still unresolved-- although the circumstances suggest that He must be very fond of them indeed for letting us get away with it. = Weary and soaking, we shouldered the dripping pipes once more, deposited them in the most convenient spot indoors, which happened to on the carpet in the middle of the parish hall, and called it a day.   Stephen being Stephen, I could not assure you that he had cleared any of this with the Dean, the sexton, or anyone else on the staff... and I don't know whether a 32' Bourdon ever came of the project. But-- nothing ventured, nothing gained.   Now I can tell everyone that I have undergone an organ transplant.    
(back) Subject: Re: Untersatz From: "Thomas Mohr" <thomasmohr@aon.at> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 21:37:15 +0200   As a native German speaker, I am able to explain the meaning of = "Untersatz" it is a composed word consisting of "Unter" and "satz"   "Unter" means under, below. Satz in this connection is something that is placed somewhere. "Untersatz" therefore is something that is placed below something else.   Therefore the meaning Untersatz =3D saucer because the saucer is placed = below the cup.   As for the Organ stop "Untersatz" - the name dervies from the fact that = the "Untersatz" is usually the lowest pitch of an manual or the pedal, it is = set below the other stops (tonally) and therefore called "Untersatz".    
(back) Subject: Re: Untersatz, katz und alles! From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:16:52 -0400   On 5/29/03 7:42 AM, "John Foss" <harfo32@hotmail.com> wrote:   > in 1978. (which year was the > Declaration of Independence made in the USA?)   Approximately. Subtract 102 years.   But it took us about five more years to make the declaration an actuality.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Untersatz, katz und alles! From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:17:54 -0500       John Foss wrote:   > I looked up Untersatz in a German English dictionary - it offered me > "saucer", suitable for my katz milch. "Satz"on its own seems to be a > multiple meaning word - perhaps some German list member could help?   actually these days I would say that "satz" is a nebulous word, something = on the order of "thing", so that a literal translation would be "underthing", = which could, of course, refer to a saucer, but also to a building foundation, = and those small items one places under the legs of chairs. In an organ = context, it could refer to the division associated with the lowest manual, or to the = lowest manual itself.        
(back) Subject: Re: Various From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:20:47 -0500     David Baker wrote:   > As regards quilisma's statement that you can't attach > someone's property without a judgment, that is an incorrect statement. > An "attachment" is a PRE-judgment device for obtaining assurance that a > judgment will be paid. Once a judgment is obtained (lucky fellow!) the > court issues an "execution", which an official (usually a sheriff or > constable) takes to the office where land instruments (such as deeds) > are placed on record and records the execution. It is only by way of > the execution (a POST-judgment device) that property can actually be > taken, which is what I think quilisma was trying to say.   Actually, in my experience, though the processes in the several jurisdictions are often similar, they are just as often different, or similar things have different names. Both Bud's and Dave's comments may = be correct, as they appear to be based in different states.   ns    
(back) Subject: Bach's Allabreve From: <lindr@cch.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 13:40:07 -0500   For more years than I care to count, I've used this piece as a postlude at funerals. Fortunately, I don't play many funerals, so it isn't something = my congregation would grow tired of.   Bob Lind     = "Emmons, Paul" = <pemmons@wcupa.ed RE: Bach for church = u> = = =         <snip> OTOH, I'd like to second Mr. Grace's nomination of the Allabreve in D. This piece is, perhaps, easily overlooked because, as one of Bach's earliest, it tends to appear in his editions among, relatively speaking, slight compositions. This versatile work makes a delightful prelude or communion voluntary if quietly registered. But played with majestic breadth on _organo pleno_ it is also an utterly *magnificent* festival postlude! Try it sometime if you don't know it. I can't think of any occasion whatsoever that would be too grand for it, and have to think that this is how Bach heard and intended it.        
(back) Subject: Re: Organ Clearing House, Wicks From: "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@swbell.net> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:26:56 -0500     ----- Original Message ----- From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> > now i hear you all saying, "you go and HEAR their new instruments." i agree, > but how do i know that i'm not just hearing a mediocre instrument in a great > room? >     This question eludes me. How can one tell if on is hearing a = mediocre instrument in a great room? It seems to me the instrument would sound mediocre, but come with lots of reverberation. What does a good = instrument in a bad room sound like? Good or bad? It all comes down to what kind of sound you're looking for and how the organ you have can be worked to best fill your space. I can't promise you the Wicks organ company would make you happy, = just as I can't promise you any organ company would make you happy, but I urge you to go hear some new Wicks installations, and most of all, to go visit the shop in Illinois and hear some original Willis-Wicks organs and = compare it to some of Wicks' newest work. The last suggestion would be to contact some of Wicks' recent customers, and find out from them how satisfied they were with the design and proposal process, the delivery and installation, their salesmen, and their service reps. There's a list of recent installations and rebuilds on the website that needs some serious = updating. The salesmen do have a lot to do with making and keeping customers happy, and if you aren't happy with your area salesman, I'm sure the Wicks office would be happy to work with you. One of my favorite original Willis-Wicks organs is here in St. Louis in = the Rock Church (http://www.wicks.com/organ/specs/1228.htm). It's a wonderful organ, and thanks to air conditioner blowers, carpeting, and baptismal fountains, it's now in a horrible room, for what it's worth. People still love to hear it.   Brent Johnson The Organ Classifieds http://www.organclassifieds.com The Organ Web Ring http://www.geocities.com/organwebring      
(back) Subject: Re: Untersatz, katz und alles! From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:34:52 -0400   On 5/29/03 7:42 AM, "John Foss" <harfo32@hotmail.com> wrote:   > to get a choir together from the American Schools in London   John: A delightful series of anecdotes! (You have an endless supply.) = And surely one cultural tie that is shared between the UK and the US is an "interest" in rock music (among a part, at least, of our populations).   But as long as we're talking so "internationally," might I inquire whether or not your father was of Norwegian extraction? Your surname is very familiar to me--but only in a Norwegian context.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Untersatz From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:36:27 -0700   >As a native German speaker, I am able to explain the meaning of = "Untersatz" it >is a composed word consisting of "Unter" and "satz" > >"Unter" means under, below. >Satz in this connection is something that is placed somewhere. >"Untersatz" therefore is something that is placed below something else. > >Therefore the meaning Untersatz =3D saucer because the saucer is placed = below >the cup. > >As for the Organ stop "Untersatz" - the name dervies from the fact that = the >"Untersatz" is usually the lowest pitch of an manual or the pedal, it is = set >below the other stops (tonally) and therefore called "Untersatz". >   so could that be "foundation?" as that which is ALWAYS under?   John V  
(back) Subject: wicks From: "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:29:18 -0500   I feel that I have to add my 2 cents to the discussion on the Wicks organ. We have one that I used to play regularly which was installed in 1946. No problems at all with the DE chests. A small 4 rank organ that is unified beyond belief and tonally not at all exciting; however, it is better than speakers in my estimation. We added an 8' trumpet by Wicks in 1993 and = was not impressed. The middle of the rank was wonderful, the bass end tubby = and not very musical and the upper end just screams! I spent all day then until 11pm going over this stop and had to tell them that I was not satisfied and that they had better talk with Mr. Wick before they got = their last 10% of money. He called and wanted to know what the matter was. VOICING was the matter or the lack there of. I believe the head voicer = was sent to our church and I spent an entire day with him trying to get this trumpet even, he was very gracious and did improve things a great deal. I hope that they are improving their product for future generations, mechanically, I feel, they are very sound, voicing is another issue. Open toe voicing and the idea of "tune it and run" has much to be desired. Bring on the flames. lol Gary      
(back) Subject: Wicks and Willis From: "Steven Durham" <sdurham11@attbi.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:58:05 -0700   List:   The working relationship between Wicks and Willis is new to me. Can = anyone tell me what time period Willis was working with Wicks and why? I'd appreciate it very much.   Steven Durham Portland, OR   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@swbell.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 1:26 PM Subject: Re: Organ Clearing House, Wicks     > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> > > now i hear you all saying, "you go and HEAR their new instruments." i > agree, > > but how do i know that i'm not just hearing a mediocre instrument in a > great > > room? > > > > > This question eludes me. How can one tell if on is hearing a mediocre > instrument in a great room? It seems to me the instrument would sound > mediocre, but come with lots of reverberation. What does a good instrument > in a bad room sound like? Good or bad? It all comes down to what kind = of > sound you're looking for and how the organ you have can be worked to = best > fill your space. > I can't promise you the Wicks organ company would make you happy, just > as I can't promise you any organ company would make you happy, but I = urge > you to go hear some new Wicks installations, and most of all, to go = visit > the shop in Illinois and hear some original Willis-Wicks organs and compare > it to some of Wicks' newest work. The last suggestion would be to = contact > some of Wicks' recent customers, and find out from them how satisfied = they > were with the design and proposal process, the delivery and = installation, > their salesmen, and their service reps. There's a list of recent > installations and rebuilds on the website that needs some serious updating. > The salesmen do have a lot to do with making and keeping customers = happy, > and if you aren't happy with your area salesman, I'm sure the Wicks = office > would be happy to work with you. > One of my favorite original Willis-Wicks organs is here in St. Louis in the > Rock Church (http://www.wicks.com/organ/specs/1228.htm). It's a = wonderful > organ, and thanks to air conditioner blowers, carpeting, and baptismal > fountains, it's now in a horrible room, for what it's worth. > People still love to hear it. > > Brent Johnson > The Organ Classifieds > http://www.organclassifieds.com > The Organ Web Ring > http://www.geocities.com/organwebring > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >