PipeChat Digest #4085 - Saturday, November 1, 2003
 
RC university positions available
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Religion & homosexuals & employment
  by "David Baker" <dgbaker@access-4-free.com>
Re: Mother of the Bride
  by "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net>
Re: Mother of the Bride
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
RE: ALL READ - NOW!!!
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: Seating of the Mothers
  by "MusicMan" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk>
RE: Seating of the Mothers
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Re: ALL READ - NOW!!!
  by "MusicMan" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk>
wedding rehearsals
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
clarification
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
RE: Seating of the Mothers
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Mother of the Bride
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
 

(back) Subject: RC university positions available From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:30:00 -0500   Pat Mainone came across this opportunity, which just might be right for somebody. If interested, below you'll find directions on how to respond.     Assistant Professor -- Seton Hall University -- New Jersey The College of Arts and Sciences at Seton Hall University invites applications for an entry-level Assistant Professorship, pending budgetary approval. Candidates in any field of study whose work focuses on aspects = of the Catholic mission of the University are encouraged to apply. While all disciplines within the College contribute to furthering the mission of the University, the College seeks to identify individuals whose work directly focuses on aspects of the Mission; examples of such teaching and research include, but are not limited to, servant-leadership, social justice and civic responsibility, global citizenship, etc. Teaching load 4/4 with a regular one course reduction each semester for research; teaching = regularly includes core courses and upper-level courses in specialty. Send letter = of application, vitae, three letters of reference, and a two-page statement = of philosophy outlining relationship between research/teaching interests and University Mission to Dr. Gregory Burton, Associate Dean and Chair of Search Committee, c/o Office of the Dean, College of Arts and Sciences, Fahy Hall, Seton Hall University, 400 South Orange Avenue, South Orange, New Jersey 07079. Deadline: Dec 1, 2003. The successful candidate will have faculty rank in one of the Departments within the College, as appropriate, and will be expected to contribute regularly through a course each semester to one of 18 interdisciplinary programs. Seton Hall University, a diocesan Roman Catholic university, is an Equal Opportunity, Affirmative Action employer. _________________________________________________________________    
(back) Subject: Religion & homosexuals & employment From: "David Baker" <dgbaker@access-4-free.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:44:39 -0500   Regarding the gay organist that allegedly got fired for coming out (or = whatever the facts are), the law is that a church is free to fire any = employee when that employee does not abide by the behaviorial standards = of the church, so long as the standards are based on an honestly held = creedal or theological position, at least in Massachusetts, and I would = expect the same to be true elsewhere. There's this little thing known = as the First Amendment, which says that we are free to practice religion = as we see fit. We cannot force OTHERS to practice religion as we see = fit. In other words, if homosexuality is a sin according to the creeds = or theology of the religion, that religion is not required to hire you = or maintain your employment if you come out. You are free to practice = homosexuality anywhere else, essentially, but they are not required to = tolerate it in their church if they find it offensive. See Madsen v. = Erwin, 481 N.E.2d 1160, 395 Mass. 715 (1985).   I take no position on the issue, so don't flame me. I just think that = people are misunderstanding "Right to Work" laws, whatever they are. = Anti-discrimination laws that violate a constitutional principle such as = freedom of religion are unconstitutional and will not be upheld, no = matter how justified or seemingly morally right they are. The First = Amendment is a sword that can cut both ways. Civil courts will not, = indeed CAN not, get involved in theological or doctrinal controversies. = Asking what Jesus would have done is fine, but unfortunately Jesus is = not in charge of the church today. Also, keep in mind that Jesus might = have said "Hate the sin, love the sinner." Again, I take NO position on = whether homosexuality is a sin, but others do, and they have the legal = AND theological right to their position.   David Baker  
(back) Subject: Re: Mother of the Bride From: "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:07:46 -0600   And this has WHAT TO DO WITH ORGANS????? If the Administrator's are so intent that everyone stay "on topic" ....   Cheers,   O   ----- Original Message ----- From: "STRAIGHT " <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 2:54 PM Subject: Mother of the Bride     > I'm not going to quote all that------but if that's what you think, I > feel sorry for you. > I'm the mother of 3 beautiful daughters, and I also have 2 sisters = and a > niece. Nice weddings for all, as well as my own. > The veil is a symbol of virginity. The groom lifts the veil, but = only > after the ceremony. It's a symbol of Christian chastity before = marriage. > The father as escort, and handing over the bride to the groom, is a > symbol of handing over to the new husband the duties of protection, care and > support for the bride. In a sense he is giving his daughter away, but only > to another man's safekeeping. > > And yes, the mother of the bride is the first member of the wedding > party, the first one to walk on the white carpet if there is one. She = has > been responsible for the care, education, morals, and development of = this > daughter, to prepare her daughter to pick up the responsibility of = taking > good Christian care of herself and all the people around her for the = rest of > her life. > She deserves respect. And she probably also had a big hand in planning > the wedding, which is a combination of family reunion, religious = ceremony, > and the biggest party of most people's lives, requiring an endless = amount of > knowledge about food, clothes for everybody, taking care of incoming gifts, > invitations and other paper needs, music for both the ceremony and > reception, places to go, transportation, who to ask for what services, > decor, flowers for people, church and reception, how big a cake is = needed, > who all the relatives are, honeymoon plans, a place to live afterward, = all > the furnishings, and how to pay for the whole mess. This takes a = certain > amount of experience. > When that Mother steps out in that church, she has hit one of the > highest points of her life. > > I feel sorry for all you men who apparently have no idea what it = takes > to put on a big wedding, or even a small one. > You just simply trust that the food will be good. Any woman could > easily poison you. > I'm sorry that you seem to have such a poor lot of people getting > married. I bet you never notice the good ones. > Furthermore, you should be keeping an eye on the clock. Plan ahead! As > it gets time to start, don't begin a 10 minute concert piece. Have some > flexible material to use, so that you CAN finish it off shortly and play = a > piece especially for that woman. SHE is the one behind it all, more = than > the bride. > Without her years of care of the girl child there would be no bride, no > need for music, and no job for you. > > Diane S.-------an experienced Mother of brides > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Information Boulevard's Virus Scanning] > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >     --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.533 / Virus Database: 328 - Release Date: 10/31/2003    
(back) Subject: Re: Mother of the Bride From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:48:53 -0500   On 10/31/03 6:07 PM, "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net> wrote:   > And this has WHAT TO DO WITH ORGANS????? If the Administrator's are so > intent that everyone stay "on topic" ....   Relax, O. I agree with you, though. It's all so silly. But it DOES = become (really often) a concern of a church organist. He or she has to deal with musical and choreographic cues that have to "work together" (if possible).   On the other hand, if you're a touring recitalist, it probably doesn't = come up all that often.   Alan    
(back) Subject: RE: ALL READ - NOW!!! From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 07:57:41 +0800   Thank you David! That discussion was far too personal. For the benefit of thw two who addressed remarks to me: 1 I do not live in Canada. 2. I have never visited the UK 3. I live in Australia. Back to organs? Bob Elms.   ---- Original Message ---- From: admin@pipechat.org To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: RE: ALL READ - NOW!!! Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:34:09 -0600   >Folks > >We are getting way off topic here on the Gay Organist thread. This >is not a forum to discuss Theological or Moral issues. And we are >getting to those issues which have no place on this list. > >>    
(back) Subject: Re: Seating of the Mothers From: "MusicMan" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 00:12:54 -0000   Hi, Alicia, It's always interesting to hear about the traditions and customs of = others; particularly when the 'customs' are involved in a ceremony or circumstance which you believe you know all about, already. The "Seating of the Mothers" makes my interest 'perk-up',and I can hardly wait to hear what it is. But, to keep 'on-topic', I'll suggest "Fat Bottomed Girls" by Queen (even = if I have a feeling that its going to be inappropriate. 'Interested' Harry Grove [a.k.a.'musicman']   -----Original Message----- From: Alicia Zeilenga <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: 30 October 2003 21:51 Subject: Seating of the Mothers     >Hello, > >Someone contacted me asking for my advice on something that can be >played/sung at a Lutheran wedding for the seating of the mothers. > >Ideas? > >Alicia Zeilenga >Sub-Dean AGO@UI >"Santa Caecilia, ora pro nobis" >    
(back) Subject: RE: Seating of the Mothers From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:11:50 -0600   With all due respect to Bud, I assumed from the question that this was a non-liturgical church; otherwise, there would be little need to ask the question (I mean that there is generally no ceremony for the seating of the mothers-in-law if it's a liturgical service). I must agree with whoever it was that suggested no particular piece for the seating of the mothers-in-law. Even though it is a nice idea to give the wedding party musical cues for the orderly procession of the program, Murphy's Law prevails at these events. They will not recognize the music, or will not be listening, or some disaster will occur to prevent their coming in on cue.   I favor the synchronization of the watches method, so that they will know (and most of them watch the clock) by what time to be seated. I also favor the "one prelude" method (like most of us do before the processional hymn on Sunday morning) instead of the "piano bar background music for 15 minutes" approach. The beginning notes of one prelude are an unmistakable sign that the service is starting, and ducks (or bridesmaids) need to be in a row by that time. Besides, the congregation will quit talking over your music and look around to see what is happening.   The prelude must be sufficient in length to take into account the bridal veil falling off and having to be readjusted, the groom's taking a last belt of Scotch to steady his nerves before entering the nave, and the nipping in the bud of any incipient domestic violence occurring. However, the Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor or the Ad nos may be a little too long and actually counterproductive to the successful flow of the wedding - the bride changes her mind and runs off with the stableboy, the groom gets drunk, and/or the fighting breaks out anew because everyone is waiting and waiting and waiting . . . .   Hope this helps.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of quilisma@cox.net Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:46 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Seating of the Mothers   In a liturgical church, the proper order of the entrance procession should be this:   thurifer cross and torches (choir, if present -- if they are normally located in the chancel) servers sacred ministers parents attendants in pairs groom and best man bride and father or whoever   while a suitable congregational hymn is sung by ALL.   The procession is NOT a photo op; it has the practical purpose of getting everybody from Point A to Point B, nothing more.   The liturgy should be the SAME as the principal SUNDAY liturgy, plus the   marriage service. Nothing more, nothing less ... no "unity candles", no inappropriate solos, no additional fol-de-rol.   It is the CHURCH'S Sacrament to bestow. The priest or pastor is the "wedding director/consultant," and NO OTHER. Most priests I've worked for (Anglican AND RC) won't let wedding consultants in the DOOR (chuckle).   The retiring procession at the end:   bride and groom attendants parents thurifer cross and torches (choir) servers sacred ministers   If a pagan bacchanal is wanted, there are plenty of venues for THAT (grin) ... if a sacramental blessing of the marriage is wanted, that's quite another thing.   One of the BEST weddings we ever had at St. Matthew's was between an impoverished seminary student and a refugee from Eastern Europe. St. Mary's Guild cooked and decorated the parish hall for the reception; the   Altar Guild did the flowers in church; one member loaned her daughter's wedding dress; the choir sang for free; I played for free; the whole parish got involved. It was LOVELY. Total cost: less than $500.   By contrast, at the first wedding in the new church, the florist's bill was $10K ... it was a ZOO, and resulted in some VERY strict guidelines (chuckle).   We had fewer problems than most, as only communicant members of St. Matthew's could be married in St. Matthew's, and they more-or-less knew what to expect. I really think that first wedding in the new church was a fluke.   Cheers,   Bud             "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org          
(back) Subject: Re: ALL READ - NOW!!! From: "MusicMan" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 00:27:16 -0000   In all this palaver about the organist losing his job(I take it he's a he? and I won't have an angry lady writing to me,) has anyone discussed his playing ability ? I do hope that a skilled professional isn't being lost = to music-making - and, no less, to the service of God ? Wonderingly, Harry Grove [a.k.a. 'musicman']   -----Original Message----- From: bobelms <bobelms@westnet.com.au> To: admin@pipechat.org <admin@pipechat.org>; pipechat@pipechat.org <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: 31 October 2003 23:58 Subject: RE: ALL READ - NOW!!!     >Thank you David! That discussion was far too personal. For the >benefit of thw two who addressed remarks to me: >1 I do not live in Canada. >2. I have never visited the UK >3. I live in Australia. >Back to organs? >Bob Elms. > >---- Original Message ---- >From: admin@pipechat.org >To: pipechat@pipechat.org >Subject: RE: ALL READ - NOW!!! >Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:34:09 -0600 > >>Folks >> >>We are getting way off topic here on the Gay Organist thread. This >>is not a forum to discuss Theological or Moral issues. And we are >>getting to those issues which have no place on this list. >> >>> > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: wedding rehearsals From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 19:30:55 -0500   Glenda writes:   Even though it is a nice idea to give the wedding party > musical cues for the orderly procession of the program, Murphy's Law > prevails at these events. They will not recognize the music, or will > not be listening, or some disaster will occur to prevent their coming in > on cue. >   A propos of that, I'd like to know the sense of the group re organists' presence at wedding rehearsals. Does it really serve any useful purpose? Rehearsals tend to take longer than the wedding service itself. = Especially because inevitably some of the groomsmen and bridesmaids are from out of town and get lost trying to find the church and so the rehearsal starts a half hour late. I've shown up for rehearsals at the college chapel where = I was never asked to play a note. Total waste of a good hour or hour-and-a-half.   Had a wedding a couple of weeks ago in which at least one bridesmaid's shoulder tatoo was glaringly visible next to the straps on her gown and = the "wedding consultant" made sure her name was printed in the program. She must have been pretty proud of her work, as she typed up the program on = her computer the morning of, misspelling Saturday as Sayurday and Zion = Lutheran as Lion Lutheran. Though maybe a change of name would do us some good. = Oh yes: she listed the entrance of the mothers after the entrance of the bride.     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu      
(back) Subject: clarification From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 19:37:05 -0500   Sorry, I realized I didn't write this very well:   "Had a wedding a couple of weeks ago in which at least one bridesmaid's shoulder tatoo was glaringly visible next to the straps on her gown and = the "wedding consultant" made sure her name was printed in the program."   What I meant was that the wedding consultant put her own name in the program, not that she put the name of the tatooed bridesmaid.   Oh Lydia, Oh Lydia, Oh have you met Lydia...? (Groucho Marx).     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu      
(back) Subject: RE: Seating of the Mothers From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 00:55:46 -0600   Bud, I must differ in opinion here....I don't think it matters if there = are photos taken during the procession etc, or what the order is. That isn't part of the ceremony itself, but rather an extra just like the ring bearer or flower girl, or the unity candle, or the aisle runner, or soloists, or even the organist....all of which are NOT needed (at least in this state = of MO) for a wedding to take place. (Granted, we're not talking about JUST Anglican weddings.) What IS required is a marriage certificate, an officiant legally able to wed two people, and two witnesses (and of course the bride and groom)   In my mind, and I'm sure my pastors would confirm, the actual rite of marriage starts from the invocation and ends with the benediction. I = prefer to not think of the rest as "pagan". :) And I would definitely argue = that Lutherans are just as liturgical. :)   Jeff   > In a liturgical church, the proper order of the entrance procession > should be this:    
(back) Subject: RE: Mother of the Bride From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 00:59:54 -0600   Well, "O", a lot of us reply as we go and do not see the admin messages until it's too late and we've already sent replies.   :)   Jeff     > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > Octaaf > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 5:08 PM > To: PipeChat > Subject: Re: Mother of the Bride > > > And this has WHAT TO DO WITH ORGANS????? If the Administrator's are so > intent that everyone stay "on topic" .... > > Cheers, > > O > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "STRAIGHT " <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> > To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 2:54 PM > Subject: Mother of the Bride > > > > I'm not going to quote all that------but if that's what you think, = I > > feel sorry for you. > > I'm the mother of 3 beautiful daughters, and I also have 2 > sisters and > a > > niece. Nice weddings for all, as well as my own. > > The veil is a symbol of virginity. The groom lifts the > veil, but only > > after the ceremony. It's a symbol of Christian chastity before > marriage. > > The father as escort, and handing over the bride to the groom, is = a > > symbol of handing over to the new husband the duties of protection, = care > and > > support for the bride. In a sense he is giving his daughter away, but > only > > to another man's safekeeping. > > > > And yes, the mother of the bride is the first member of the = wedding > > party, the first one to walk on the white carpet if there is > one. She has > > been responsible for the care, education, morals, and > development of this > > daughter, to prepare her daughter to pick up the responsibility > of taking > > good Christian care of herself and all the people around her > for the rest > of > > her life. > > She deserves respect. And she probably also had a big hand in > planning > > the wedding, which is a combination of family reunion, > religious ceremony, > > and the biggest party of most people's lives, requiring an > endless amount > of > > knowledge about food, clothes for everybody, taking care of incoming > gifts, > > invitations and other paper needs, music for both the ceremony and > > reception, places to go, transportation, who to ask for what services, > > decor, flowers for people, church and reception, how big a cake > is needed, > > who all the relatives are, honeymoon plans, a place to live > afterward, all > > the furnishings, and how to pay for the whole mess. This takes > a certain > > amount of experience. > > When that Mother steps out in that church, she has hit one of the > > highest points of her life. > > > > I feel sorry for all you men who apparently have no idea > what it takes > > to put on a big wedding, or even a small one. > > You just simply trust that the food will be good. Any woman could > > easily poison you. > > I'm sorry that you seem to have such a poor lot of people getting > > married. I bet you never notice the good ones. > > Furthermore, you should be keeping an eye on the clock. Plan = ahead! > As > > it gets time to start, don't begin a 10 minute concert piece. Have = some > > flexible material to use, so that you CAN finish it off shortly > and play a > > piece especially for that woman. SHE is the one behind it all, > more than > > the bride. > > Without her years of care of the girl child there would be no = bride, > no > > need for music, and no job for you. > > > > Diane S.-------an experienced Mother of brides > > > > --- > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Information Boulevard's Virus > Scanning] > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.533 / Virus Database: 328 - Release Date: 10/31/2003 > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >