PipeChat Digest #4108 - Tuesday, November 11, 2003
 
18th cty barrel organ 01
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve>
Re: Paine, Payne??
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Pipe Dreams/Looking for Advent Introit
  by "Anya/Andreas" <atal@sympatico.ca>
Carpenter and Hell?
  by "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net>
Re: John Knowles Paine/Payne
  by "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Paine/Payne
  by "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk>
Research can be rewarding
  by "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Paine, Payne??
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Paine, Payne??
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
RE: Carpenter and Hell?
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
RE: Carpenter and Hell?
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Re: Paine, Payne??
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Carpenter and Hell?
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
RE: Carpenter and Hell?
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
Re: Carpenter and Hell?
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Carpenter and Hell?
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: Allen MDS Expander II
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: Paine/Payne
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
RE: Paine, Payne??
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve>
 

(back) Subject: 18th cty barrel organ 01 From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:51:33 -0400   Andres Gunther agun@telcel.net.ve   18th cty barrel organ part 01 (Introduction for laymen)   A short technical explanation first: a barrel organ works exactly with the same principle as its "big brother" the church or concert organ- Wind system, windchest, one to several pipe ranks, action. The major difference lies in that its balanced key levers (the "claves") aren't = moved by human fingers but lifted by pins which are pinned on a rotating roller made of wood (the "barrel"). As the roller rotates, the pins (sort of tiny brass nails) come into contact with an iron or steel tooth which is fixed = to one extreme of the key lever, and force the key lever upwards. The other side of the lever then pushes down a rod which in change opens the pallet = in the windchest.   What makes barrel organ construction so tricky is: a) The barrel and feeder bellows are moved by a common mechanism. In = street barrel organs this mechanism is cranked by the player; in ancient = automatic barrel organs like the one I will talk about by a clock movement. = Mechanical resistance of barrel and feeders are critical for this. b) The wind system must be engineered for optimal performance and supply = in a minimum of space with a minimum of mechanical resistance. Wind trunks = have to be kept as short as possible; their internal diameter is critical to supply the wind in acceptable quantity but without pressure loss. The slightest wind leak becomes fatal for the instrument. c) A most optimal relationship between low wind pressure (1 inch), = promptest pipe speech and maximum of sound volume and projection is critical also. d) The whole action mechanism is an extreme precise mechanism- a 100th millimeter becomes a critical value which influences all the performance. "Dead ways" shouldn't exist at all, loose or yanking parts (even slightly) are forbodden... but an overadjusted mechanism with too tight friction points, too large pallets or too strong pallet springs is subjected to slowdown failures and premature wearout on the other side. Eye and feeling become the first precision tools here to etablish the right relationship. Out of all this the mechanism has to be *quiet*. For this, the claves and the clavier frame should me made of wood. As we'll see there were = brass made claviers, which have the advantage to be less susceptible to wearout, warping and humidity changes but have the disadvantage to be heavyweighted and noisy. e) Out of what I told in (b) the pipework must be sturdy, specially on street barrel organs. It has to resist all kinds of vibrations, shocks, temperature / humidity changes and dirt accumulation without damage or = going out of tune or voicing - and this over long time periods. For this, pipe manufacture, voicing and preparation needs some extra skills; the most traditionally used materials are hardwood, brass or copper- in this order (I may add zinc). "Metal" was used only for indoor organs. The wood pipes should be treated with a good sealer and varnish at the in - and outside, including the wind chamber in the block. The pipes in street organs have special fixtures- they are screwed, sometimes glued to the toeboards to avoid loosening and wind leakage.   Orchestrions, Calliopes and Welte or Aeolian player organs operated with steam or electric powered motors and vacuum-pneumatic actions; hencefore weren't so critical regarding points (a), (b) and (c). Also modern automatic organs which are operated by = digital playback systems are only mentioned besides here. Their advantages: more storage capacity (the old barrel is very limited) and quiet, reliable, shockproof operation are obvious. They have no feeders but miniature blowers... But, crazy as I am sometimes, I miss the craftmanship here... Today, traditional barrel organ manufacture or restoration seems to be a forlorn art, but then suddently there is an individual who devotes himself to restorations and even building of such instruments - but it's rather a matter of luck to find her or him.   A barrel organ may be considered as a "toy" by some people. But this small relative of the pipe organ fascinated more than one organ builder in history. Dom Bedos' treatise includes instructions how to build one. Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven wrote compositions for this isntrument- as a matter of fact, W.A. Mozart's "Organ works" were writen = for barrel organs and orchestrions; what we play in organ recitals are transcriptions from the original scores. One of the most famous barrel organ builders in the german area was Ignaz Bruder, whose workshop notes and diaries were re-edited and commented by Karl = Borman in 1965. Later, Borman wrote a book about home organ building including a complete indication how to build a barrel organ. I purchased these books, more for curiosity than serious interest in barrel organs, in 1980. = Eighteen years later the "Bruder-book" (as it's called) enabled me to fulfill one = of the restorations I most enjoyed in my career.   (will be ctd.)      
(back) Subject: Re: Paine, Payne?? From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:58:11 EST   Dear John:   The rules for spelling 16th to 19th century English were appalling. It was more or less a do it yourself endeavor and in some cases still is. It creates a lot of confusion as to whose spelling is the right one. Spelling Dictonaries have come a long way since olde Englisch or is it olde high Deutche? It is definately a most colourful language to learn as an outsider, but equally intriguing as a native speaker and the dialects possible. When I was in the UK several years ago it was a real challenge for me to understand them especially from certain parts of the country. Some slurred their words or used slang which came to my ears as unintelligeable gibberish. We still haven't nailed down such simple things as our or or as in colour/color or re and er as in theatre/theater. Then you have dialects of our northern states vs southern states. Then there's NY and NJ. And then there is Paine and Payne. Then there are the NZ and the OZ's Then there are so many cultural differences. It makes one want to scream.   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Dreams/Looking for Advent Introit From: "Anya/Andreas" <atal@sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:43:46 -0500   I've used "Advent Message" by Martin How (Boosey, I think). It can be performed in unison, or 2-part, and is quite dramatic and accessible for most choirs. Cheers, Andreas Thiel   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fran Walker" <fwalker@northwestern.edu> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 12:53 PM Subject: Pipe Dreams/Looking for Advent Introit       LAST, BUT MOST URGENT, HELP! HELP!! OUR CHOIR DIRECTOR HAS USED THE SAME ADVENT INTROIT FOR 20 YEARS. OUR CHOIR WOULD LIKE A NEW ONE. ANY SUGGESTIONS? IT'S ABOUT THE LENGTH OF ONE VERSE OF A HYMN SUNG SLOWLY. HE'S BEEN USING AN ARRANGEMENT WHICH COMBINES "PICARDY" AND = "VENI EMMANUEL." FIRST (AS I REMEMBER, IT'S SOMETHING LIKE THIS, ANYHOW) THE WOMEN SING "VENI EMMANUEL" ALONE, THEN THE MEN SING PICARDY ALONE, THEN = ALL TOGETHER SING BOTH TUNES/WORDS IN A CANON-TYPE ARRANGEMENT. ANY = SUGGESTIONS FOR A *NEW PIECE? THANKS!!   Fran Walker (fwalker@northwestern.edu) Organist, North Shore United Methodist Church Glencoe, IL 847-835-1227 http://www.gbgm-umc.org/northshoreumc/          
(back) Subject: Carpenter and Hell? From: "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:13:32 -0500   Hmm.....   Felix Hell is to E. Power Biggs as Cameron Carpenter is to Virgil Fox.   Discuss.   :)   --Shirley    
(back) Subject: Re: John Knowles Paine/Payne From: "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:21:05 +0000 (GMT)   Well, to make sure I'm not going blind I checked again - admittedly I gave Google a leading question by typing in "John Knowles Payne". It came up with "The Fromm Players at Harvard give the last of their 2002 concerts on Friday, April 5th at 8 PM in John Knowles Payne Concert Hall." It just goes to show you can't believe everything you see in print! John Foss   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D www.johnfoss.gr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ Topics of the week : Line from Plati Gene Robinson's appointment   ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk  
(back) Subject: Re: Paine/Payne From: "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:23:49 +0000 (GMT)   Here is the URL from Harvard : http://leverett.harvard.edu/newsletter/news033102.pdf John Foss   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D www.johnfoss.gr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ Topics of the week : Line from Plati Gene Robinson's appointment   ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk  
(back) Subject: Research can be rewarding From: "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:59:40 +0000 (GMT)   Following on from the controversy on J.K.P's name I checked further down Google, and soon came to a Pipechat reference - 427 in the Archives. Malcolm had written, as always, a fascinatingly complete review of the OHS Friday 28th June outing to Denver. http://www.pipechat.org/archives/1998/june/digest427.html From the next post came an authoritative claim that "Pneumatic organs were used in Mesopotamia before they developed in Greece - long before the 4th century b.c. The Magrephah was the legendary pneumatic organ of the Jews, no longer used after the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. The instrument mentioned in the Talmud iii.8 is said to have been so powerful it could be heard in Jericho 10 miles away." So that's what knocked down those walls, then. John Foss   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D www.johnfoss.gr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ Topics of the week : Line from Plati Gene Robinson's appointment   ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk  
(back) Subject: Re: Paine, Payne?? From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:08:23 -0500   On 11/10/03 8:07 AM, "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> wrote:   > You say Lassus, I say Lasso.   Or, in Wyoming, just "lariat."   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Paine, Payne?? From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:14:05 -0500   On 11/10/03 10:41 AM, "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> wrote:   > I googled too and only came up with "Paine".   Google on "Schoenberg" or "Shoenberg" (take your pick) and you'll find PLENTY of authoritative verification of either version. Of course there ar= e the variations between "=F6" and "oe," but one EXPECTS that. Bu "Sch" vs. "Sh" just shouldn't exist.   So I guess it happens in the best of families.   Alan    
(back) Subject: RE: Carpenter and Hell? From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:36:31 -0500   Shirley suggests:   >Felix Hell is to E. Power Biggs as Cameron Carpenter is to Virgil Fox. = Discuss :)   That would make Felix an extreme form of Biggs. I can't agree. Biggs = was an advocate of the organ and organ music, more than of himself, but = was he ever as wildly successful in drawing audiences in as Felix is? I = own more Biggs than Fox albums and always enjoy listening to them, = whether the earlier or later recordings. I'd never want to part with = the earlier ones for which he is probably less known: marvelously = spacious Mendelssohn in St. Paul's Cathedral, scintillating Reubke at = Methuen (which alas I don't own but can never forget hearing), = persuasive Rheinberger at Munich. But I suspect that those he made in = his latter years achieved their appeal and liveliness somewhat at the = expense of subtlety and true authenticity, e.g. a performance of = Clerambault's famous "Bass et dessus de trompette" in which the notes = inegales are exaggerated and perfectly predictable. (And, ironically, = haven't I heard Marie-Claire Alain or some other authority on the = subject explain that notes inegales were avoided altogether in basse de = trompette movements because the pipes were liable to speak too slowly?)   One of my friends in college once said that Biggs "isn't really very = bright." And my teacher LaVahn Maesch likened him to a famous passenger = on a train at a station. Wanting to join him, you climb aboard; but as = soon as you get underway, he flashes past you, on a train going in the = opposite direction.   Felix shares Bigg's virtue of relative self-effacement as he points to = the instrument and its music; but I respect him entirely too much to = associate him with any of the older EPB's eccentricities or = shortcomings.    
(back) Subject: RE: Carpenter and Hell? From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 17:44:11 -0600   I don't liken Felix to Biggs; Felix is his own man, with his own extraordinary talent and presentation.   I've heard both good and bad about Carpenter; I'll give an opinion on Cameron when I hear him in person.   Although I doubt I get to Los Angeles next summer, I think the regional contestants for the AGO National Competition will be the ones to watch. I'm expecting great things from them.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Shirley Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 3:14 PM To: pipeChat Subject: Carpenter and Hell?   Hmm.....   Felix Hell is to E. Power Biggs as Cameron Carpenter is to Virgil Fox.   Discuss.          
(back) Subject: Re: Paine, Payne?? From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:53:32 -0500   On 11/10/03 1:58 PM, "RonSeverin@aol.com" <RonSeverin@aol.com> wrote:   > It makes one want to scream.   No, no; don=B9t scream. You betcha there=B9s tons of variety. But that=B9s OK. Keeps it interesting.   Alan Frid (formerly); now Alan Freed    
(back) Subject: Re: Carpenter and Hell? From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:55:35 -0500   On 11/10/03 4:13 PM, "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> wrote:   > Hmm..... > > Felix Hell is to E. Power Biggs as Cameron Carpenter is to Virgil Fox. > > Discuss. > Believe me, the thought has occurred. Don't know CC, so I've not pursued the thought.   Alan    
(back) Subject: RE: Carpenter and Hell? From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:12:09 -0500   > Felix Hell is to E. Power Biggs as Cameron Carpenter is to Virgil Fox.   There is also the fact that today we are blessed with at least two other = brilliant young recitalists, Paul Jacobs and Ken Cowan, who should not = be eclipsed by the suggestion that only two are pre-eminent.   Another aspect: E. Power Biggs freely admitted to not being a very good = service player or choirmaster, as a short tenure at Christ Church, = Cambridge, Mass. demonstrated to himself and others. =20   Felix may not be particularly *known* yet as a church musician, but he = has already had very good training and happy experience, at St. Peter's = Lutheran in New York as well as earlier in Germany, and may someday lead = the program at a famous cathedral to great things.        
(back) Subject: Re: Carpenter and Hell? From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:11:39 -0500   On 11/10/03 7:12 PM, "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> wrote:   > Felix may not be particularly *known* yet as a church musician, but he = has > already had very good training and happy experience, at St. Peter's = Lutheran > in New York as well as earlier in Germany, and may someday lead the = program at > a famous cathedral to great things.   "Someday," perhaps. But I think that requires a whole different set of skills than those with which he has been equipped thus far. I don't think he should even consider that for at least 10 to 15 years (minimum). Just wouldn't be right. Possibly never. Just a different package.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Carpenter and Hell? From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:13:57 EST   In a message dated 11/10/2003 4:20:11 PM Central Standard Time, pnst.shirley@verizon.net writes: Hmm.....   Felix Hell is to E. Power Biggs as Cameron Carpenter is to Virgil Fox.   Discuss. what about paul jacobs????? maybe on a technical level there is = similarity between carpenter and fox-but musical--no.    
(back) Subject: Re: Allen MDS Expander II From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:34:11 EST   I once had a job on an Allen MDS 8 with an expander. I could assign 1 = voice per division (great, swell, and pedal). I'm sure that if it were a 3 = manual organ, you could assign a voice to each division (equaling 4). This box = really improved the sound of the organ. The one big disadvantage was that you = could not have independant volume comtrols for each channel--i.e. --there is one =   volume knob that controls the output for the ENTIRE box. So...if you = wanted to have an 8' diapason added to the great, nice and loud, and you had a 16' = reed in the pedal--the reed would be WAY too loud. Another HUGE disadvantage = was that the assigned voices DON'T COUPLE DOWN. For example, if you were = playing Franck, and you wanted an 8' hautbois to be part of the registration, you = would have to assign it to each division that you wanted it to sound on. It's really too bad. If Allen allowed those voices to be coupled, and for each = channel to have its own volume control, it would be perfect. Who knows, maybe = they will think of this stuff and make the change. Catch my drift??? gfc    
(back) Subject: Re: Paine/Payne From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:52:15 -0500   Hi John,   This seems to be an announcement in a student newspaper at Harvard, and I suspect, with all the other citations of the Paine persuasion, we will = have to think that the paper is likely in error - a mistrake, in other words. Perhaps we will hear from a person at Harvard who has actually crossed the threshhold of this place, and can give us what might be engraved in stone over the door.   What a paine,   Malcolm   ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Paine/Payne     > Here is the URL from Harvard : > http://leverett.harvard.edu/newsletter/news033102.pdf > John Foss > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > www.johnfoss.gr > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ > Topics of the week : > Line from Plati > Gene Robinson's appointment >      
(back) Subject: RE: Paine, Payne?? From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:27:47 -0400   Andres Gunther agun@telcel.net.ve   Ron Severin wrote on pipechat:   > When I was in the UK several years ago it was a real challenge for me to understand them especially from certain parts of the country.   Same thing happens in Germany- the northern "Platt"; the Bavarian; the Palatine; the "Saech'sch" (that's the dialect spoken in the homeland of Bach, Haendel and the forefathers of a Servant)   > Then there are so many cultural differences. It makes one want to = scream.   Sometimes it's desperating indeed, but it makes things interesting, = diverse and lively. Imagine for a moment that all organs would sound alike- same voicing, same spec, same WP- No difference between North German, Dutch, French Classic, Spanish barroque, American Classic... how terrible. We = would die of boring!   Yours Rafael Andres Guenther Kreichgauer (try to spell *that* tonguetwister :) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.