PipeChat Digest #4044 - Thursday, October 9, 2003
 
Re: Funny letter, Cinti Museum Center
  by "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net>
RE: REHEARSING WITH ORGAN AND SINGING FLAT
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Playing Theater Organ Music on a Symphonic Organ
  by "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: REHEARSING WITH ORGAN AND SINGING FLAT
  by "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: SINGING FLAT
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Funny letter, Cinti Museum Center
  by "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: SINGING FLAT
  by "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
OHS 2005
  by "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com>
Re: REHEARSING WITH ORGAN AND SINGING FLAT
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: REHEARSING WITH ORGAN AND SINGING FLAT
  by "David Evangelides" <davide@theatreorgans.com>
the Organ in contemporary life
  by "Kealypaul" <kealypaul@yahoo.com>
Re: Wed Noon Recital: Madison, WI
  by "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com>
RE:  Music search
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
Brazilian Sleighbells
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Re: Playing Theater Organ Music on a Symphonic Organ
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: REHEARSING WITH ORGAN AND SINGING FLAT
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: REHEARSING WITH ORGAN AND SINGING FLAT
  by "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: REHEARSING WITH ORGAN AND SINGING FLAT
  by "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: Re: Funny letter, Cinti Museum Center
  by <r_ehrh@bellsouth.net>
Re: Wed Noon Recital: Madison, WI
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Ornamentation in Walther
  by "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Funny letter, Cinti Museum Center From: "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 07:05:26 -0400   Good morning!!!   Hi chatters. I am certainly not against these other styles of music. There are a lot of organs that are ideal for playing all sorts of = different music that are in desperate need of help, say, the AC organs. My only thought is if the future of all organs is dependent on playing other stuff on them, it seems to me like it will provide less and less of an = opportunity for new people to hear and appreciate them in their "element". I'm not a purist, elitist or organ-music only person. Rather I love it, and want to share it. That's why in a public venue like the one on topic, I think = it's important to not abandon traditional music altogether. Also I think it's = a bit premature for the "panel" to rule out traditional music in such a fashion because for one, there is plenty of thrilling, rythmic, and snazzy traditional music to play. Secondly, the position in the letter just further indicates the implied dislike for traditional organ music that = would be further conceded to and harbored by ignoring it. This isn't Nate = saying "this is great music and you should like it or else". Rather, "Keep the music out there for new admirers!" Give it a chance! (C:     Best regards,   Nate   "Tuner of the very loud trumpets"      
(back) Subject: RE: REHEARSING WITH ORGAN AND SINGING FLAT From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:51:36 +0800   IN many years of training children's choirs in schools and in churches I used a trick I learned from a Director of Music in our Education Department many years ago. When going to high notes I told the singers to "think down" on the note - attack it from above, not underneath. It worked, and the children's choirs could be worked up to top C with practice. Unspoiled children's voices in the high register are glorious if properly trained. Bob Elms.   ---- Original Message ---- From: reedstop@charter.net To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: RE: REHEARSING WITH ORGAN AND SINGING FLAT Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:46:06 -0500   > >> I remember growing up in a choral tradition where our >> director urged us, ...again and again..., "Sing on top >> of the pitch. >>    
(back) Subject: Playing Theater Organ Music on a Symphonic Organ From: "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 07:28:40 -0500   Hello, Nate, et al: Your question was: > Does anyone have/know of recordings of more popular > music being played on non-theatre organs? I'd be > interested to hear what it sounds like. One of the more spectacular is the recording by Wayne Marshall on the Lay Family Concert Organ at the Meyerson Symphony Center in Dallas. This CD was released by DELOS as DE3228, if you are interested. He plays his own improvisations (very musical in the development) of Gershwin, and a huge rendering of West Side Story by Bernstein, "Tea for Two," "Let it Snow," and "Take the A Train." This would be a most wonderful program on the WurliTzers in Rochester, my friends. The Lay Family Concert Organ was built by Fisk as their Opus 100. It is one of the more fulfilling symphony hall organs in the world, and the Meyerson Symphony Center is a excellent acousitcal environment for such a grand organ. It may be one of the few organs to which a symphony brass section plays the backup parts. <grins> This organ can present a most sonorous full-bodied sound, even for the Dallas Wind Symphony. Whew! It can "tickle" your ribs. It is quite capable of playing church music, often for regional religious gatherings, ...and, as Wayne Marshall demonstrates on this CD, ...music of the stage and pop classics of years gone by. Wayne Marshall is a wonderful spark of life when he plays. At the time of this recording in 1999, he was Organist-in-Residence of Manchester's Bridgewater Hall and works regularly with students of the Royal Academy of Music, Northern Royal Academy of Music, and the Scottish Academy of Music and Drama. I have no commercial interests in DELOS or as an agent for Wayne Marshall. I just like the music he makes. F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..  
(back) Subject: Re: REHEARSING WITH ORGAN AND SINGING FLAT From: "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:03:58 -0500   Hello, Jeff: You wrote:     > My high school choir director once made a statement > that it is better to sing in a "sharp" key instead > of a "flat." In other words, give the pitches > in E Major instead of E-flat Major, or A Major > instead of A-flat Major. Any truth to this? He > said that the keys with sharps tend to be brighter, > and hence easier to stay in pitch. I'm curious to > your reaction on that. You are backing into the age-old concept of each key having its own musical character. I find it hard to understand when singing, especially a capella. If we sing a song in A-major (when written in A-flat major) to improve its brilliance, would it be even more brilliant in A-sharp major (B-flat intonation)? Or would it be less brilliant because we are in a "flat" key now? Maybe, but we are dealing with vocal production, and that is also a large contributor to brilliance. You also have to factor in the tessitura of the piece. If you get the pitch up to make it more briliant, don't push its tessitura range to the point where voice begin to screech, for that would also be bad both for the singers and those who listen. Our best singing group in college was our a capella choir. Pitch was given relative to the condition of our voices. If we were tired, our director had the pitch lowered. If we were fresh and doing well, he often had the tunes pitched up. In that case, a tune in C would begin on the C# pitch. The music was not written in C#, but our voices and the interpretation during the presentation might make the piece sound a bit more brilliant. You might argue that the pitch of the tune in C, when raised to C# pitch would sound less brilliant because it would be enharmonically the same as if the piece was written in D-flat. I believe the condition of the voices and the vocal production have a much greater impact on the musical quality than the pitch in which it was notated. A capella singing has the potential benefit of getting all of the harmonies "in tune." If you get all of the chordal pitches in tune, you will produce overtones that liven the quality of the music. Get sloppy with the intonation, and it will be less brilliant, regardless of the key signature in which it was notated. To tie this back into the main theme of our discussion group, Alec Wyton, former Organist/Choirmaster at Saint John the Divine, New York City, told us in his opening talk to the National AGO Convention in Houston that he had the awesome responsibility to make music with the most awkward instrument in the world and the most beautiful instrument every created at the same time. He said that the pipe organ is the most awkward instrument and the human voice is the most beautiful instrument. He went on to say that his job as organist/choirmaster was to bring the resources of both instruments together and make music with them. That, he said, was the great challenge for all church musicians. I believe he was very close for what is required of all performing musicians, regardless of of instrumental composition; string, wind, brass, percussion, organ, or voice.   F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..  
(back) Subject: Re: SINGING FLAT From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:26:03 EDT   Look behind each of your singers, or turn them upside down, and you = will find a small single-rise reservoir, usually attached to their backside. = Check the corner gussets and ribs for leaks. Choir members can go substantially flat if they have wind leaks or stuck curtain valves, and they often try = to compensate for their lower pressure by bringing baked goods to rehearsal = and smiling a lot. If they are all up to pressure, have them sing from a more English perspective, approaching the notes "from above," rather than the Austrian = style of "swooping up" into a note. Aiming high, as it were, frequently gets less experienced singers on pitch.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City  
(back) Subject: Re: Funny letter, Cinti Museum Center From: "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:26:38 -0500   Hello, Nate, et al: You wrote: > Hi chatters. I am certainly not against these other > styles of music. * * * This isn't Nate saying > "this is great music and you should like it or else". > Rather, "Keep the music out there for new admirers!" > Give it a chance! Well, I like your idea, and we had an incident a few weeks ago that exposed our pipe organ in church for the first time to a "new" group of people, ...and THEY LIKED IT. We have been in two-style worship mode at the First Baptist Church in Garland, Texas, for about 8 years. This was the first change introduced by our new pastor in 1994. To top that, he gave the 11:00 o'clock "holy hour" for Sunday morning worship over to the contemporary music styles. So, every person visiting, anticipating they would participate in a traditional worship service, was bombarded (...and this situation still prevails) with the high-energy of a praise band and amplified ensemble of "singers." <aside> None of these "singers" would be able to carry their parts in a choir of trained singers. They vocal styles is light and airy, depending completely on amplification and EQ to shape the sound to the liking of the contemporary music leader. Singing from the heels in a praise chorus destroys the tonal effect of the "upbeat" style. Did you know that the praise literature has no bass part? <end aside> One Sunday, recently, the Praise Band and Praise Chorus were given the day off as we celebrated in traditional style at both the 8:45 am service time (normal for the traditional group) and the 11:15 am service, too. Many people who normally attended the 11:15 am service heard the organ for the first time. As the service ended, Helen Mason (our organist) played a rousing tune to see the people out. A crowd of people gathered around the console. When all was done, they clapped. One of the more vocal of the young people said, "I had no idea what the organ sounded like. It has never been played in our contemporary service, and I LIKE IT." He spoke the concensus for those who gathered to listen to and watch Helen play the Postlude. Helen was thrilled. So am I to be able to report this positive reaction to traditional church organ music in, ...of all places, our church. <grins> F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..  
(back) Subject: Re: SINGING FLAT From: "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:34:18 -0500   Good Morning, Seb, et al: You wrote: > Look behind each of your singers, or turn them > upside down, and you will find a small single-rise > reservoir, usually attached to their backside. Check > the corner gussets and ribs for leaks... <huge grins> You made my day, already. Appreciatively, F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..  
(back) Subject: OHS 2005 From: "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:36:08 -0400   The Organ Historical Society National Convention for 2005 is in Southeast Massachusetts. Co-Chairmen are Richard Hill and Michael Bellochio. Dates are July 12 to 19. Judy Ollikkala  
(back) Subject: Re: REHEARSING WITH ORGAN AND SINGING FLAT From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 10:08:05 -0400   On 10/9/03 12:46 AM, "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> wrote:   > My high school choir director once made a statement that it is better to > sing in a "sharp" key instead of a "flat." In other words, give the = pitches > in E Major instead of E-flat Major, or A Major instead of A-flat Major. = Any > truth to this? He said that the keys with sharps tend to be brighter, = and > hence easier to stay in pitch. I'm curious to your reaction on that. > In high school and college I believed that. Sing "Beautiful Savior" in D-flat major and there's no WAY not to go flat. But since then, I've concluded that it is probably not correct. I just can't figure out any = way (other than psychology, based on SEEING [or remembering] the key = signature) to rationalize it. But if you sing it in C# major you avoid going flat? (If so, it's psychology, and not physics or physiology.)   I think.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: REHEARSING WITH ORGAN AND SINGING FLAT From: "David Evangelides" <davide@theatreorgans.com> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 09:44:05 -0500   So, is there a physiological or biological/mechanical reason why we tend to sing 'flat', and not go 'sharp'? I know it's true that the endency is for the voices to go down. if we can figure it out, it may help us resolve it.   David E   David Evangelides Colorado Springs, Colorado > In high school and college I believed that. Sing "Beautiful Savior" in > D-flat major and there's no WAY not to go flat. But since then, I've > concluded that it is probably not correct. I just can't figure out any > way > (other than psychology, based on SEEING [or remembering] the key > signature) > to rationalize it. But if you sing it in C# major you avoid going > flat? > (If so, it's psychology, and not physics or physiology.) > > I think. > > Alan >      
(back) Subject: the Organ in contemporary life From: "Kealypaul" <kealypaul@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:04:38 -0700 (PDT)   Several years ago Don Hustad commented on the PBS Pipe Dreams that his church has seen a growth because of the pipe organ, against the comment by most church growth leaders that pipe organs are out of sync with today's generation.   So it was good to see the comment of F. Richard Burt,   "One of the more vocal of the young people said, "I had no idea what the organ sounded like. It has never been played in our contemporary service, and I LIKE IT." He spoke the concensus for those who gathered to listen to and watch Helen play the Postlude."   Somehow the sound of the organ in today's society has been relegated to poorly dubbed electronic sounds at funeral scenes or the dreariest of fuges in murder mysteries at British cathedrals or Las Vegas weddings or church parodies on Saturday Night Live (well, perhaps trashed in clips from horrors flics such as Phantom of the Opera).   Thanx for this example of what a true pipe can do when left to speak for itself. I can hardly wait to get my installation, which is designed as much to make known the power of the pipe for today, as well as historically.   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Paul E. Kealy www.MediaExcellence.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++   __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Wed Noon Recital: Madison, WI From: "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 10:16:40 -0500   Alan,   Thank you for your reply. The Wed Noon recitals have been a tradition, I believe for over 30 years. They are performed every Wed to coincide with = the Fall and Spring semesters at UW-Madison. Attedance usually hovers between = 10 and 40 people. It will continue indefinitely and as far as improvements, = I'm not sure what you mean. Bruce performs all of the recitals, except for a sabbatical he took last year, in which another organist filled in for the remainder of the season. I will forward your message to Bruce, maybe he = can fill in more details.   Mike Franch Madison, WI     >From: Alan Freed <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> >Reply-To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> >To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> >Subject: Re: Wed Noon Recital: Madison, WI >Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 17:17:47 -0400 > > >Mike, I'm interested to hear how it went. Attendance? Hopes for >continuation and improvement? I'm just really pleased when good things >like >this happen in God's country. (I've spent almost NO time in Madison, but >Wisconsin and Minnesota are home territory to me.) > >Alan > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >   _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service FREE for one month. Limited time = offer-- sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=3Ddept/dialup    
(back) Subject: RE: Music search From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:30:13 EDT   <A HREF=3D"http://pianoharbor.com/1700123.html">The Definitive Christmas = Collection</A>   I did a quick search on Google - this piano collection is the only one = that came up for Percy Faith's "Brazilian Sleighbells."   Have you tried <A HREF=3D"www.burtnco">www.burtnco</A> ? Burt can usually = find anything.   Victoria Hedberg    
(back) Subject: Brazilian Sleighbells From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:31:40 -0500   There's a very basic version in one of the Reader's Digest songbooks, probably the Christmas one. Check public libraries, or it may still be in print.   Dennis Steckley _____________   "I am looking for the music to Brazilian Sleighbells by Percy Faith -- preferably in a keyboard reduction of some kind. Thank you in advance."        
(back) Subject: Re: Playing Theater Organ Music on a Symphonic Organ From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:42:58 EDT   Hello   I wish to add to this thread by saying that, on August 21, I performed a = pops concert on the mighty Kotzschmar Memorial Organ in the Portland (Maine) in =   Merrill Auditorium in the Portland City Hall Complex. The program = consisted of showtunes, ballads, marches and transcriptions. The history of the organ, =   beautiful color photographs and its full specifications can be seen at <A = HREF=3D"www.foko.org"> www.foko.org</A>.   Not only did the music work extremely well on that instrument (with not a tibia clausa nor a heavy tremulant in sight), but I also received = commentary following the performance praising the rich and orchestral registrations = and effects that were heard coming from the instrument that evening. One = specific comment was that the listener had heard sounds that they had never noticed = or heard used previously. While it is difficult to understand that one of = the many past performers may not have happened on an exact registration of mine, it = is certainly possible that certain registrations may not have been used in = the same manner or context before, thereby giving listeners a new aural = experience at the concert. Some of these favorable comments came from Ray Cornils, Portland's own Municipal Organist, Harold Stover who is President of FOKO = and other organists and listeners who were present. I have also received many = positive emails along those same lines since I returned home after the concert as = well.   While I do not have a recording of the performance as FOKO no longer tapes =   the pops concerts, I know there is one out there somewhere. My friend and =   colleague Tom Hazleton said that a friend of his was present that evening = and did make an archival type DAT recording. The comments Tom received from this individual were also "very enthusiastic," as Tom put it. That made me = feel really good!   Believe me- it certainly CAN be done, and with great success! (Not to mention that it was a heck of alot of fun playing it as well!)   Scott F. Foppiano Cantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat.    
(back) Subject: Re: REHEARSING WITH ORGAN AND SINGING FLAT From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 11:52:57 -0400   On 10/9/03 10:44 AM, "David Evangelides" <davide@theatreorgans.com> wrote:   > we tend to sing 'flat', and not go 'sharp'?   I spent some years as the guy with the pitchpipe in two traveling a = cappella choirs. So I was able to know always which way we'd been going. We tried to stay "on," or course, but sometimes flatted. But SOMEtimes, we'd go sharp. I think it's psychological.   > I know it's true that the tendency is for the voices to go down.   Or, sometimes, up.   Alan (who theorized 50 years ago that it was evidence of Original Sin)    
(back) Subject: Re: REHEARSING WITH ORGAN AND SINGING FLAT From: "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:02:51 -0500   Hi, Alan: You wrote: > Alan (who theorized 50 years ago that it was evidence of > Original Sin) <huge grins> So, singing flat has theological implications, too? <more grins> Total depravity. I love it! F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..  
(back) Subject: Re: REHEARSING WITH ORGAN AND SINGING FLAT From: "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:05:32 -0500   Hi, Alan, again with postscript: You wrote: > Alan (who theorized 50 years ago that it was evidence of > Original Sin) <huge grins> So, singing flat has theological implications, too? <more grins> Total depravity. I love it! ....AND THE ORGANIST/CHOIRMASTER gets to correct it. WOW! <many more grins> What a beautiful day this has already been. F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..  
(back) Subject: Re: Re: Funny letter, Cinti Museum Center From: <r_ehrh@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:12:43 -0400   > Hi chatters, > > Does anyone have/know of recordings of more popular music being = played on > non-theatre organs? I'd be interested to hear what it sounds like. > > = > -Nate > > "The apprentice who asks, where'd everybody go?" > Well, there's Gershwin and Bernstein on the Meyerson Fisk (Dallas, TX) = played by Wayne Marshall.   Robert Ehrhardt Noel Memorial UMC Shreveport, LA http://www.zimbel.com/ehrhardt.html      
(back) Subject: Re: Wed Noon Recital: Madison, WI From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 12:35:31 -0400   On 10/9/03 11:16 AM, "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com> wrote:   > Thank you for your reply. The Wed Noon recitals have been a tradition, I > believe for over 30 years. They are performed every Wed to coincide with = the > Fall and Spring semesters at UW-Madison. Attedance usually hovers = between 10 > and 40 people. It will continue indefinitely and as far as improvements, = I'm > not sure what you mean. Bruce performs all of the recitals, except for a > sabbatical he took last year, in which another organist filled in for = the > remainder of the season. I will forward your message to Bruce, maybe he = can > fill in more details.   Mike!   That's a fabulous (very encouraging) report. Is the church "downtown" = near busy sidewalks and stuff? Where do all those people COME from? I'm quite impressed.   It's different in Manhattan. There are several churches, with major instruments, that do noon concerts. Usually weekly. There's PLENTY of street traffic, but it's mostly lunch-hour folks from offices, tourists, people shopping, etc. They're not midwesterners taking in an organ = recital. Some of them get a crowd comparable to what you report, but most do not; we've tried many times at Saint Luke's, but just can't get it off the ground. We'll get three or four, or six or eight, or MAYbe a dozen, but that's about it. (We're on the EDGE of the commercial district, which doesn't help.)   With regard to "improvements," I wrote that silly phrase in the automatic default expectation that you'd report tiny attendance--so I was wondering how you might build it up. Well, I'm glad I was wrong, and I'm laughing = at my ignorance!   One of the biggies in Manhattan is St. Mary the Virgin ("Smoky Mary's), = and they have occasional recitals. Last time I was there for one, I took = along a friend, and if we hadn't been there there would have been only four = people in attendance. And the building and the instrument are both huge, and = both famous, and very well located!   So I'm always wondering "what does it take to make it 'take off?'."   Thanks for your delightful reply!   Alan    
(back) Subject: Ornamentation in Walther From: "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:07:31 -0400   Dear Chatters,   As a young student in the late 60s and early 70s I pretty much put ornamentation in Baroque music where my teachers told me to. I'm aware now (a) a lot of this is subject to personal and/or editorial interpretation = and (b) notions change from one decade to the next as to what is seen as appropriate for the time the music was written.   At any rate, in the process of reconstructing a music library after not playing for a long time, I've come into possession of a collection of J.G. Walther chorale preludes in a late 1940s Concordia edition. This music = looks like someone took handsful of mordants, inverted mordants, trills and = turns and just liberally sprinkled the pages with them. There's no rhyme or = reason I can see to a lot of the placement and in many cases it seems extremely excessive.   I don't have a specific question, exactly--since I'm not actively studying right now I'll probably just use my own judgment and edit a lot of this stuff out. I'd welcome some general discussion of the topic, though.   Emily A.