PipeChat Digest #4052 - Wednesday, October 15, 2003
 
Flats vs.Sharps/Paul
  by <MMccal7284@aol.com>
Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul
  by "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: Keys with flats
  by <ContraReed@aol.com>
Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul
  by "Mattcinnj" <mattcinnj@yahoo.com>
Re: Keys with flats
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul
  by "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com>
Re: Keys with flats
  by "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
AGO membership
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: AGO membership
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
Evensong this week on BBC-3
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: AGO membership
  by "John & Fran Meyers" <jack-fran1@cox.net>
RE: Evensong this week on BBC-3
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
RE: Keys with flats
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
Coaticook etc.
  by "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com>
Re: Keys with flats
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Wed Noon Recital: Madison, WI
  by "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com>
 

(back) Subject: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul From: <MMccal7284@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 06:52:57 EDT   <<< For example, I am much more comfortable in Eb Major than I am D# Major =   for some odd reason as they are enharmonic equivilants! >>> Can totally relate, Paul, and if we had the answer to this, we could = bottle it, sell it and retire to Maui! I wish I HAD an answer...would be great to =   understand. Have always, for as long as I can remember (have been playing = piano since age four and organ since age 13 - and I'm now 60), had an aversion = to sharp key signatures - including G major - even though Sine Nomine is my = all-time favorite hymn. Not that I can't play in those sharp keys - Bach's Prelude = and Fugue in C# Major is one of my favorites, but it took me MONTHS to really learn it from memory and play it for an adjudicator - yet there's = something about sharps and double-sharps that, for me, is "brain-scrambling".....I'm = thinking, I'm thinking. (Interestingly enough, when I finally saw the = above-mentioned work printed in D flat major, it was a "learn-it-all-over-again" = experience.) Is it a visual thing? Is it an "ear" thing? Is it a combination of both? = Is it the ol' John Thompson's method of introducing sharp key signatures (which = is pretty bad) ? Let's "hmm" this for a moment....flat key signatures (all of =   them) are, in some odd, inexplicable way, "comforting/comfortable"....at = least for me. Why should that be? I have a real horror (and work on it all the time) = of introducing my students to pieces in sharp keys...I do it but wish I = didn't have to do so. Anyone out there in The Kingdom of PipeChat have any ideas about this? =   MaryLee =  
(back) Subject: Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul From: "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:14:47 -0500   Good Morning, Pipe Chatters: > > For example, I am much more comfortable in Eb Major > > than I am D# Major... My own experience with key signatures was one that should not be endured by any beginning student. At age 70, I now believe I was handicapped in this all important discipline of eye to hand execution of seeing notes in one key and playing them on the keyboard. MOST OF IT BECAUSE I DID NOT DISCIPLINE MYSELF TO RIGOROUS PRACTICE AT THE KEYBOARD UNTIL THE brain had instilled executable instructions in the stem which could be readily repeated without having to mentally instruct each finger on every note to be played. That's my opinion based on about 60 years of observation. Sometime in my early adolescence, I was at church one Sunday afternoon with a small group of my teen-aged friends as we were "experimenting" with the various pianos available to us. Our experience varied from reasonably good playing of Chopin to my clumsy attempt to play a four part hymn. I said to them, "I have difficulty playing the hymns in A major (three sharps)." That's when the young lady who played Chopin so well said, "Then play them in A-flat major. The notes are the same but the fingers play down a half step, ...and it's 'easier.' " From then on, ...for the next 10 years, I learned to play the hymns in D, A, E, and G in their flatted versions. It was a mental process to which I adapted quite easily, and my "repertoire" of hymns expanded quite nicely. It was sufficient to play for Sunday School meetings and similar gatherings. As an aside, I despised playing in G. So, I would transpose those songs down one step to F. I believe it was all part of this mental process, once started, I was too locked in to continue. I adapted to most of the normally flatted keys. By the time I arrived in college where I took piano both in class situations and privately (at different times), I was again expected to play the notes as they were written. So, maybe for the first time, I had to demostrate my ability to play the scales in all keys. This was the beginning of a breakthrough for me. Some of those mental processes developed well enough that I could read and play a hymn in E major on my master auditions. I am only a mediocre player at the keyboard, suitable enough to develop the tonalities of the organ in proper balance and show prospects what they might expect out of one of the organs I have available. The arthritis in my hands can be quite painful at times, but I force myself to keep trying, and, ...sometimes, the fluids work back into the joints enough to be comfortable for a while. Keep playing as long as you possibly can, for arthritis will take it all away if you don't. Music is a mental experience. If you don't master the basics of playing in keys, ...AS WRITTEN, you can develop some poor habits that will plague you for evermore. Now, let me speak positively about the other side of the situation. Many of our standard hymns were pitched in keys that represented a comfortable range of notes when the old organs were pitched at A=3D435 (or lower). By the time A-440 became standard, they were too high to sing for many of us. My ability to drop into a lowere key proved an asset in situations where we needed to involve the people in singing the old songs (congregational). I rarely played for soloists or choirs, and most of the time I was leader of the singing (as music director). My bass-baritone range was much easier with songs lowered a step or so. I do not think this was the driving force that led to playing the songs in A major in A-flat major. That was an anomoly, and it has been refreshing to read how many others have bumped into this phenominon, too. Can you also see a song written in A-flat major and play it in A major? The process is the same, except it needs some reinforcement to become "easy." Gotta go. F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..  
(back) Subject: Re: Keys with flats From: <ContraReed@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:59:14 -0400   In a message dated 10/15/2003 4:12:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, = pianoman1@ntlworld.com writes:   > For example, I am much more comfortable > in Eb Major than I am D# Major for some odd reason as they > are enharmonic > equivilants!   No wonder D# Major would be uncomfortable to play in, it would have 9 = sharps...... (practically, it doesn't exist)  
(back) Subject: Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul From: "Mattcinnj" <mattcinnj@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 06:21:44 -0700 (PDT)   Hi All,   Count me in as another one that prefers flats to sharps, I'm beginning to think this is rather common if not universal. I can sight read and improvise readily in all the flat keys, especially C- BUT not in sharp keys. I can not improvise in sharp keys !!!??????   Years ago I gave a gal piano lessons using her mom's old books. This gal absolutely could NEVER remember to play the F# in the key of G. Looking at all the comments and underlinings from the days when her Mother used these books ...... same comments, same problems !!!! I joked that it must be another "thing" DNA determines.   Matt         __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Keys with flats From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:02:24 -0400   On 10/14/03 6:14 PM, "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> = wrote:   > it is easier to sing in flat keys (like Db) than in other keys   I'm not ready to buy it. When I started piano in 1937, first key learned was C, of course. Next was G, with one sharp. Then D, with two sharps. = A bit later, there came F, with one flat. Having learned sharps FIRST, they were the "easy" keys; flats, learned later, were just naturally harder.   And so it would have stayed, except that later I picked up B-flat instruments, and got thoroughly acquainted with that world--in which sharp keys were more awkward than flat ones.   So I think it's just what your "pattern" has caused you to get used to.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:31:59 +0800   I am not surprised that you are more comfortable in Eb major than D# major since there is no such key as D# major!! Sorry! Couldn't resist! Bob Elms.   >Good Morning, Pipe Chatters: > For example, I am much more comfortable in Eb Major > than I am D# Major...      
(back) Subject: Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul From: "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:32:06 -0500   My guess is that sharps and double sharps requre you to read to or three commands at once, the note, the sharp command, and the double sharp = command (in this case two notes below the printed note) or in the case of double sharp require you to think about it rather than just play the one, exact printed note that sits of the staff. Norman Cockers' Tuba Tune, for one, = is a fine example for me right now. When it changes key about midway through the piece, there are a couple of sharps and double sharps that I have had = to write on the music. I'm working on just that right now. I have to look at the note, then figure out the transposition, then play the note. I'll work =   on it a few more times before it'll become second nature to me. This, of course, if coming from a person that doesn't not play full time, or have = an organ in his home to practice on. (Althought that'll change soon, as I'm considering a purchase of a home pipe organ. Still scraping my wife off = the ceiling from that idea).   But I'm sure all will agree, when you start practicing a piece, and you do = a quick play-through, you go to the hardest part and work on that first.   Mike Franch Madison, WI     >From: MMccal7284@aol.com >Reply-To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> >To: pipechat@pipechat.org >Subject: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul >Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 06:52:57 EDT > ><<< For example, I am much more comfortable in Eb Major than I am D# = Major >for some odd reason as they are enharmonic equivilants! >>> >Can totally relate, Paul, and if we had the answer to this, we could = bottle >it, sell it and retire to Maui! I wish I HAD an answer...would be great = to >understand. Have always, for as long as I can remember (have been playing =   >piano >since age four and organ since age 13 - and I'm now 60), had an aversion = to >sharp key signatures - including G major - even though Sine Nomine is my >all-time >favorite hymn. Not that I can't play in those sharp keys - Bach's Prelude =   >and >Fugue in C# Major is one of my favorites, but it took me MONTHS to really >learn it from memory and play it for an adjudicator - yet there's = something >about >sharps and double-sharps that, for me, is "brain-scrambling".....I'm >thinking, >I'm thinking. (Interestingly enough, when I finally saw the = above-mentioned >work printed in D flat major, it was a "learn-it-all-over-again" >experience.) >Is it a visual thing? Is it an "ear" thing? Is it a combination of both? = Is >it >the ol' John Thompson's method of introducing sharp key signatures (which =   >is >pretty bad) ? Let's "hmm" this for a moment....flat key signatures (all = of >them) are, in some odd, inexplicable way, "comforting/comfortable"....at >least for >me. Why should that be? I have a real horror (and work on it all the = time) >of >introducing my students to pieces in sharp keys...I do it but wish I = didn't >have to do so. > Anyone out there in The Kingdom of PipeChat have any ideas about = this? > MaryLee > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >   _________________________________________________________________ See when your friends are online with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Keys with flats From: "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:34:22 -0700   On Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 07:02 AM, Alicia wrote:   >> it is easier to sing in flat keys (like Db) than in other keys   There is a strange phenomenon in the choral world about singing in D-flat as opposed to C. A cappella choirs which sing a piece in C will tend to go flat much faster and more severely than if they sing the same piece one half-step higher, in D-flat. I have personally found this to be true with every single choir I've ever sung in, or conducted.      
(back) Subject: Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:40:04 EDT   MaryLee:   I think it's a reading problem rather than hearing. I read sharp keys much easier than flat keys beyond four flats. If I see five flats it goes two sharps every time. I really don't like too many sharps either as in five six or seven, same with flats. Doubled sharps or flats don't bother me too much. In transposing a half step up flat accidentals become naturals, double flats become single, and naturals become sharp.   I have a problem with some arrangements too. It's strange, but some arrangers make a piece difficult to play, while the same piece by a different arranger fits easily under the fingers. Same notes just a different view. Ever feel uncomfortable playing someone elses music and it's a piece you could play in your sleep, but find it difficult when you use theirs? I guess it's what you get used to seeing. The mind is a strange and wonderful thing, but easily shaken. It looks for what is expected or anticipated, and concentration can fall apart if it's not.   Same holds true for most College text books. They use big obscure words, when simpler ones would suffice. You're reading along, it's in English, and get to the end of a paragraph and stop and wonder what the HECK are they trying to say? It becomes slow going gibberish when it doesn't need to be. It's almost an elitist style, hard to read or comprehend. You almost need to see a translation.   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:41:28 -0400   On 10/15/03 8:14 AM, "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> wrote:   > My own experience with key signatures was one that should > not be endured by any beginning student. At age 70, I now > believe I was handicapped in this all important discipline   Richard, I think that what you've written amounts to a "breakthrough" on thinking about this. I'm a year older than you, and our histories are different, but I could relate to much of what you wrote.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:47:59 -0400   just putting in my two cents' worth...   i always preferred flats to sharps, and would always take D-flat major = over D major, but that's mainly because i love the sound of D-flat.   on a side note, and speaking of flats, have any of you ever tried brahms' = A-flat minor fugue? OMG! talk about difficult!! but once it's in your = hands, you can leave it alone for decades, then pick it up again with = little difficulty.   scot in tacoma  
(back) Subject: AGO membership From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:58:06 -0700   I e-mailed the person whose addy you supplied about tranferring my membership to San Diego.   I got no response.   I e-mailed the registrar of the Orange County chapter; she said there was a form to fill out, and she'd get right on it. Haven't heard from her or received anything.   This is why I get frustrated with the Guild.   It took the better part of a year to get my TAO subscription started.   I filed a formal complaint about St. Matthew's ... haven't heard a word about that either.   TAO isn't worth $75 a year, and I don't seem to get anything ELSE for my Guild dues.   I just spent ten minutes searching the national site, trying to find an e-mail address to copy them.   I give up.   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: AGO membership From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:03:34 EDT   Hello quilisma@cox.net,   In reference to your comment:   =E8 I e-mailed the person whose addy you supplied about =E8 tranferring my membership to San Diego. I got no =E8 response. I e-mailed the registrar of the Orange =E8 County chapter; she said there was a form to fill out, =E8 and she'd get right on it. Haven't heard from her or =E8 received anything. This is why I get frustrated with the =E8 Guild. It took the better part of a year to get my TAO =E8 subscription started. I filed a formal complaint about =E8 St. Matthew's ... haven't heard a word about that =E8 either. TAO isn't worth $75 a year, and I don't seem to =E8 get anything ELSE for my Guild dues. I just spent ten =E8 minutes searching the national site, trying to find an =E8 e-mail address to copy them.   Bud,   Sometimes the low-tech way is the most efficient. Here's your chapter Dean:   San Diego (921) Leslie Wolf Robb, CAGO 3303 Caminito Eastbluff La Jolla, CA 92037 (858) 455-7701   When I both moved and changed my name, The Guild was able to keep up with me= =20 via a phone call.   Victoria   =20 =20      
(back) Subject: Evensong this week on BBC-3 From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:40:28 -0700   http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/   Vespers for the Feast of St. Teresa of Avila, Virgin and Doctor (sung in Latin) from Brompton Oratory.   What an EXQUISITE sound! THIS is what church music is all ABOUT!!   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: AGO membership From: "John & Fran Meyers" <jack-fran1@cox.net> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:45:41 -0700   Sorry Bud about your difficulty transferring your membership. Although I = am a member of Palomar Chapter, am also a dual member of San Diego Chapter. = The registrar is Ruth Sayre and her email is sayrer@aol.com Her residence = phone: 619 276 4108 and business phone: 858 453 3444 (church) Hope this helps. = Fran Meyers   ----- Original Message ----- From: <quilisma@cox.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 7:58 AM Subject: AGO membership     > I e-mailed the person whose addy you supplied about tranferring my > membership to San Diego. > > I got no response. > > I e-mailed the registrar of the Orange County chapter; she said there > was a form to fill out, and she'd get right on it. Haven't heard from > her or received anything. > > This is why I get frustrated with the Guild. > > It took the better part of a year to get my TAO subscription started. > > I filed a formal complaint about St. Matthew's ... haven't heard a word > about that either. > > TAO isn't worth $75 a year, and I don't seem to get anything ELSE for my > Guild dues. > > I just spent ten minutes searching the national site, trying to find an > e-mail address to copy them. > > I give up. > > Cheers, > > Bud > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: RE: Evensong this week on BBC-3 From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:43:53 -0400   > Vespers for the Feast of St. Teresa of Avila, Virgin and Doctor (sung = in=20 Latin) from Brompton Oratory.   > What an EXQUISITE sound! THIS is what church music is all ABOUT!!   Is this the choir trained by McCarthy, the new Organist-Choirmaster of = Washington Cathedral? If so, I'm delighted.   The current issue of the _Diapason_ contains an interview with him. He = is a professional singer himself and very concerned that everyone in his = choir have proper vocal technique for their own effectiveness-- among = other things, he mentioned that good vocal production saves rehearsal = time. There was some hint in the article that Mr. McCarthy's appointment = and advent would signal a determined effort to lay a better foundation = at Washington as to the sheer vocal training of the choir.   I have several old LPs of the Washington Cathedral choir in the 1950s = and 60s, Paul Callaway's era, and find some of them almost unlistenable = because of the singularly ugly tone of the trebles. Whether it's the = singing, the recording engineering, or the acoustics, I can't say. The = few times I have heard the choir in person, I thought they sounded = better, and also that they improved somewhat in the recordings that = Dirksen and Major made. But to the extent that Mr. Major was a protege = of Callaway, as well as in the usual respects, perhaps a tradition is = still there that dies hard. A former assistant once said that Callaway = wanted or needed the tone he got because of the acoustics; but can they = be *that* unique?   While reminiscing, I also noticed that Paul Callaway had a peculiar way = of conducting the psalms. Between verses or half verses, he would shake = his forearm up and down rapidly and tensely, then suddenly he would = stop. The instant he stopped was apparently the signal for the choir to = start singing. That, at least, is what they did.=20              
(back) Subject: RE: Keys with flats From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:31:50 -0400   > from personal experience I have always felt more comfortable plaing in = flat keys on the keyboard (although I am no singer). =20   Is it simply that you were exposed to flats, and a flat key, before = sharps in your early training? What other instruments do you play?   As I recall, my introduction to the piano as a typical 1950s tyke, = Thompson's "Teaching Little Fingers to Play" introduced sharps first. = Consequently, I still have a vague residual feeling that a key with x = sharps is a little easier than one with x flats. Perhaps that method, = for its undoubted soundness in some respects, does something to instill = a dread of sharps and flats in general. More modern methods minimize = this apprehension by encouraging a more exploratory and improvisatory = approach to the keyboard.   Another reason might be that (a few years later) I played the 'cello in = the school orchestra. Sharp keys tend to be easier on stringed = instruments, while wind instrumentalists, especially brass, prefer flat = keys.   One of my teachers said (and I believe it) that the second most = difficult major scale to play is B, and the most difficult is B-flat. = That would support my feeling, too, especially in that B-flat is a = commoner key than B.   But mainly, I long found lots of sharps or flats, either way, to be = quite intimidating. I must have been about 12 when, for some reason, I = attended a recital given at a local music store by its teachers and = students. One of the teachers, an elderly woman, played "Consolation" = by Liszt. I was with a neighbor who was a respectably good pianist and = piano teacher (although not my teacher). Her verdict afterwords was = that the whole affair was a display of incompetence, with even the = teachers playing elementary stuff. When I asked if at least something = shouldn't be said for anyone who assayed a piece in "FIVE flats", she = merely dismissed this distinction with a quick mutter and shake of the = head. I started at least trying to get over my fear of daunting-looking = key signatures at that moment.      
(back) Subject: Coaticook etc. From: "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:41:16 -0400   Hi, the line that goes through Coaticook, Quebec, Canada, is the St. Lawrence and Atlantic which starts/ends in Portland Maine. It goes northwest through Rumford ME, Berlin NH, and crosses the CT River and goes up a long grade to Island Pond VT, and north to Quebec. It has become a busy freight line, there are yards in Island Pond, Sherbrooke and = Richmond, Quebec, after Richmond it heads west through St. Hyacinth and to Montreal. =   It breaks off the main Canadian RR line at Drummondville, yards there = also, and the main line goes on to Quebec City, and/or Halifax, Nova Scotia via Maine and New Brunswick, with passenger service as well. But the St. L. & A. is just freight. And I have seen female engineers on it. Judy Ollikkala Worcester MA  
(back) Subject: Re: Keys with flats From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:03:09 EDT   In a message dated 10/15/2003 1:33:24 PM Central Daylight Time, PEMMONS@wcupa.edu writes: One of my teachers said (and I believe it) that the second most difficult major scale to play is B, and the most difficult is B-flat. That would = support my feeling, too, especially in that B-flat is a commoner key than B. It is all mental. Teachers should always emphasize transcendence of these =   little things, so that students don't become afraid of big key signatures, = and can make music. If a teacher says "B major is hard, " he automatically programs the young mind for failure. greg    
(back) Subject: Wed Noon Recital: Madison, WI From: "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:09:14 -0500   WEDNESDAY NOON RECITAL   LUTHER MEMORIAL CHURCH Madison, Wisconsin   Bruce Bengtson - organ   October 15, 2003 NOON   Partita on Lobt Gott, ihr Christen allzugleich Johann Gottfried Walther Seven Variations (1684-1748)   Zwanzig Praludien und Postludien, (Opus 78) Sigfrid = Karg-Elert Lobt Gott, ihr Christen allzugleich (1877-1933)   Meditation Religieuse Henri =   Mulet = (1878-1967)   Esquisses Byzantines Henri =   Mulet #10 Tu es Petra (et portae inferi non praevalebunt adversus te.)____________________________________________________ Mike Franch Madison, WI   _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy MSN 8 patented spam control and more with MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service. Try it FREE for one month! = http://join.msn.com/?page=3Ddept/dialup