PipeChat Digest #4053 - Thursday, October 16, 2003
 
Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
RE: Keys with flats
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
Re: Keys with flats
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
Re: Keys with flats
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
RE: Keys with flats
  by "Steve Chandler" <stevec@open-tech.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #4052 - 10/15/03
  by "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk>
RE: Keys with flats
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
Re: Keys with flats
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: Keys with flats
  by "Anya/Andreas" <atal@sympatico.ca>
B major scale
  by <MFoxy9795@aol.com>
Re: Keys with flats
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
Whoops
  by "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com>
New Music Posted
  by "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
diane bish arrangements
  by <tcbussey@comcast.net>
Re: Evensong this week on BBC-3
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:30:44 -0500   I must be odd, but I really DON'T like playing with flats. I would much prefer sharps. Maybe that is because I learned about them first.   Although, I will confess that this Sunday, I REALLY wanted to add an extra flat in one the hymns that I had to play some 20 times every time I played it!   Alicia Zeilenga Sub-Dean AGO@UI "Santa Caecilia, ora pro nobis"     -----Original Message----- From: Mattcinnj <mattcinnj@yahoo.com> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 06:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Flats vs.Sharps/Paul   > Hi All, > > Count me in as another one that prefers flats to > sharps, I'm beginning to think this is rather common > if not universal. I can sight read and improvise > readily in all the flat keys, especially C- BUT not in > sharp keys. I can not improvise in sharp keys > !!!?????? > > Years ago I gave a gal piano lessons using her mom's > old books. This gal absolutely could NEVER remember to > play the F# in the key of G. Looking at all the > comments and underlinings from the days when her > Mother used these books ...... same comments, same > problems !!!! I joked that it must be another "thing" > DNA determines. > > Matt > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search > http://shopping.yahoo.com > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >      
(back) Subject: RE: Keys with flats From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:33:35 -0400   Greg (Gfc234@aol.com) writes:   > It is all mental. Teachers should always emphasize transcendence of = these little things, so that students don't become afraid of big key = signatures, and can make music. If a teacher says "B major is hard, " = he automatically programs the young mind for failure.   Why should it be all mental? The various scales require various = intervals and sequences of black and white keys to be navigated by the = various fingers. We have ascending and descending forms of the scale = and both left and right hands to experience them, multiplying the = circumstances further. Some of these combinations are inevitably easier = than others from a sheer physical and ergonomic standpoint.   In the ascending B-flat major scale, for instance, in the right hand the = thumb must twice be passed under a finger playing a black key, to play a = white key a whole step above. This is not unique to this scale, but we = also have the fact that most of the keys are naturals, therefore the = hand must be a bit farther out than with, e.g., D-flat major, where the = only white keys are played with the thumb. I'm not sure that that these = circumstances completely explain the difficulty, but why deny that such = considerations exist to make some scales somewhat more challenging than = others? And of course, one reason we learn scales is because they = represent the optimal fingering for actual pieces in the given key, all = else being equal. So, to the extent that the optimal fingering for key = X is a little more awkward than the optimal fingering for key Y, we must = maintain that key X is a little more difficult, and the reasons are more = than psychological.   > Teachers should always emphasize transcendence of these little things, = so that students don't become afraid of big key signatures, and can make = music. If a teacher says "B major is hard, " he automatically programs = the young mind for failure.   I agree. As either Harvey Grace or Henry Coleman wrote of choir = training, "to suggest problems is to create them."   However, it was one of my college teachers who said this. University = students should be able to deal with facts without getting their minds = warped.   > =20  
(back) Subject: Re: Keys with flats From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:36:06 -0500   I am not sure that I agree. I don't like it when a teacher doesn't tell me when something is hard. If they tell me, it becomes a challenge. That is why I like playing B major scales. :) Alicia Zeilenga Sub-Dean AGO@UI "Santa Caecilia, ora pro nobis"     -----Original Message----- From: Gfc234@aol.com To: pipechat@pipechat.org Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:03:09 EDT Subject: Re: Keys with flats   > In a message dated 10/15/2003 1:33:24 PM Central Daylight Time, > PEMMONS@wcupa.edu writes: > One of my teachers said (and I believe it) that the second most > difficult > major scale to play is B, and the most difficult is B-flat. That would > support > my feeling, too, especially in that B-flat is a commoner key than B. > It is all mental. Teachers should always emphasize transcendence of > these > little things, so that students don't become afraid of big key > signatures, and > can make music. If a teacher says "B major is hard, " he automatically > programs the young mind for failure. > greg >      
(back) Subject: Re: Keys with flats From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:39:03 -0500   That is exactly what she was talking about! I just would like to know why.   Alicia Zeilenga Sub-Dean AGO@UI "Santa Caecilia, ora pro nobis"     -----Original Message----- From: Eric McKirdy <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:34:22 -0700 Subject: Re: Keys with flats   > On Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 07:02 AM, Alicia wrote: > > >> it is easier to sing in flat keys (like Db) than in other keys > > There is a strange phenomenon in the choral world about singing in > D-flat as opposed to C. A cappella choirs which sing a piece in C will > tend to go flat much faster and more severely than if they sing the > same piece one half-step higher, in D-flat. I have personally found > this to be true with every single choir I've ever sung in, or > conducted. > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >      
(back) Subject: RE: Keys with flats From: "Steve Chandler" <stevec@open-tech.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:20:45 -0500   > > >From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> > > >Is it simply that you were exposed to flats, and a flat key, before = sharps in your early training? What other instruments do you play? > >As I recall, my introduction to the piano as a typical 1950s tyke, = Thompson's "Teaching Little Fingers to Play" introduced sharps first. = Consequently, I still have a vague residual feeling that a key with x = sharps is a little easier than one with x flats. <snip> > >One of my teachers said (and I believe it) that the second most difficult = major scale to play is B, and the most difficult is B-flat. That would = support my feeling, too, especially in that B-flat is a commoner key than = B. > > This whole discussion of flats vs. sharps is quite illuminating. I have no great preference for one over the other, though I do tend to prefer key signatures with fewer of either. I also learned sharp keys first and for some time found them easier. I think the primary reason is that they start on white keys through five sharps (B major), whereas the flat keys go to black keys at two flats (Bb). This allows use of the thumb on the root of the key when playing scales. I had a tough time accepting the concept of the first finger on the tonic.   Having said that I also play flute and when I do it's usually just noodling along to popular music. I've pretty much learned all the keys, but it took a well known pop-country singer (initials ST) to introduce me to the joys of Bb minor, F# and C#. Once you get used to them they're really not that hard. So if you have a hard time improvising at the organ in A major I suggest you practice doing just that until it isn't hard anymore. It'll make you a better musician.   Cheers,   Steve Chandler http://www.mp3.com/stevechandler    
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #4052 - 10/15/03 From: "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:05:37 +0100 (BST)   Dear list, I fully support Richard Burt's "keep playing" stance - I try to do at least an hour's practice every day, and always start with a ten minute "good morning" fingers session, which includes going through all the major and minor scales. I hope this will keep arthritis at bay! I can't but help remember a lesson at the RCM when I was a student. Having arrived early I started working through the scales on the piano. Ralph Downes walked in and said "Oh what a good boy am I!" Since he had suggested that I learn them all, I was merely following his advice! My favourite pupil, 10 year old Benedict, (favourite mainly because he sits in awed silence when I play through the latest piece I've been working on - he's a good listener - and always says "Wow! Fantastic!" - flattery goes a long way!) has just started two new pieces today, one in F major and the other in G major. It is his second year of lessons, and his father bought him a new piano last week. One of the first pieces he learned was in F sharp major - he found it quite easy as the notes fit comfortably under the fingers. I remember David Rowland - now Professor of Music for the Open University and organist of Corpus Christi College, Cambridge - bringing along Mulet's "Tu es Petra", which is in C sharp minor, when he was thirteen, and asking me if he could learn it. I thought it might be too difficult for him, but I suggested he try it for a week and see how he got on. A week later I sat back in awe as he played it virtually flawlessly. Looking through Tournemire's "L'Orgue Mystique", which is mainly improvisatory in character, you will find, I think, that much of it is written in flat keys.   John Foss   www.johnfoss.gr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ topics of the week A Perfect Ending 50 Years Ago Is Hull the Worst place in the World?   ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk  
(back) Subject: RE: Keys with flats From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:08:52 -0400   > I don't like it when a teacher doesn't tell me when something is = hard. If they tell me, it becomes a challenge. =20 That is why I like playing B major scales. :)   My philosophy:   A choirmaster should certainly impress upon a chorister, and even more a = potential chorister, that it will be hard work full of challenges. But = if he says, for instance, that singing high notes is hard, he's asking = for trouble.   The whole journey is hard, but each little step should be introduced as = easy, even if it isn't.   Then, *after* a student has done it, you can tell him or her that = they've mastered something *hard*, or hard for most people, and watch = them glow.      
(back) Subject: Re: Keys with flats From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:23:17 EDT   In a message dated 10/15/2003 2:44:18 PM Central Daylight Time, azeilenga@theatreorgans.com writes: am not sure that I agree. I don't like it when a teacher doesn't tell me when something is hard. If they tell me, it becomes a challenge. That is why I like playing B major scales. :) Do you honestly think playing in B major is all that hard???? greg :)    
(back) Subject: Re: Keys with flats From: "Anya/Andreas" <atal@sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:51:39 -0400   Interestingly, Chopin taught students to play the B major scale before = they progressed to C major, whose notes didn't lie nearly as = comfortably! -Andreas ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gfc234@aol.com=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 6:23 PM Subject: Re: Keys with flats     In a message dated 10/15/2003 2:44:18 PM Central Daylight Time, = azeilenga@theatreorgans.com writes: am not sure that I agree. I don't like it when a teacher doesn't = tell=20 me when something is hard. If they tell me, it becomes a challenge. = =20 That is why I like playing B major scales. :) Do you honestly think playing in B major is all that hard???? greg :)    
(back) Subject: B major scale From: <MFoxy9795@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:59:02 -0400   I think the B major scale is the easiest, and was the first one I was = assigned in college together with the other two which use all five black = keys, working around the circle of fifths to C as the last and the hardest = (except possibly for F). Funny, this subject line was continually called playing in flats even tho = the subject was moved to B major. Merry Foxworth   =B4=A8=A8)) -:=A6:- =B8.=B7=B4 .=B7=B4=A8=A8)) ((=B8=B8.=B7=B4 ..=B7=B4 -:=A6:-   An excerpt from Robert Giddings "Musical Quotes and Anecdotes", published in Longman Pocket Companions: "There let the pealing organ blow, To the full-voiced choir below, In service high, and anthems clear, As may with sweetness, through mine ear, Dissolve me into ecstasies, And bring all Heav'n before mine eyes". John Milton - Il Penseroso (1632).   Open Door Realty Boston, MA 02131 617 469-4888 x207 877 865-1703 toll free http://www.opendoorrlty.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Keys with flats From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:12:06 -0500   Not any more, but when I was eight... Alicia Zeilenga Sub-Dean AGO@UI "Santa Caecilia, ora pro nobis"     -----Original Message----- From: Gfc234@aol.com To: pipechat@pipechat.org Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:23:17 EDT Subject: Re: Keys with flats   > In a message dated 10/15/2003 2:44:18 PM Central Daylight Time, > azeilenga@theatreorgans.com writes: > am not sure that I agree. I don't like it when a teacher doesn't tell > me when something is hard. If they tell me, it becomes a challenge. > That is why I like playing B major scales. :) > Do you honestly think playing in B major is all that hard???? > greg :) >      
(back) Subject: Whoops From: "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 00:06:41 -0400   Hi all, Looks like I sent my train email to the wrong list!! Sorry about that. Judy Ollikkala  
(back) Subject: New Music Posted From: "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:45:27 -0500   Good Morning, PipeChatters: We have been working quietly at making some new sounds available. Please visit my website and listen to the new music postings. Go to www.dorianorgans.com ....and click on "Sounds of Dorian" and drop down the list to "Holy, Holy, Holy" and the "Dance of the Angels." These are from our most recent album and, I believe, takes the quality of digital sampling to a higher plane than we've known in the past. It isn't cheap, but it is a good sound. The two recordings featuring the new combination pipe and digital instrument are excerpts from a live service by my long-time friend Terry Lowe. This organ is half pipes (ca 1982 by Schantz) and the digital additions are my Dorian Gamma-118. The "Coronation" tune is from the congregational singing, and the improvization is "Precious Lord" from the middle portion of the program. Then, I would like to hear from you. If you live in the Texas area (Southwestern United States) and like what you hear, I can send you a CD for your tonal study. Appreciatively, F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..  
(back) Subject: diane bish arrangements From: <tcbussey@comcast.net> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:37:39 -0400   Hello, I am not that familiar with playing Diane Bish's arrangements but I am gradually working my ability level to play them. Can anyone tell me if the majority of her works are playable on a two manual organ? Thanks!    
(back) Subject: Re: Evensong this week on BBC-3 From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:08:29 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   There are only really four outstanding catholic church music set-ups in the UK, of which Brompton Oratory is one.   Westminster Cathedral has a magnificent choral tradition, but one should never ignore Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral; the church in the round with a cupola tower. (Also known as the Mersey Funnel or Paddy's Wig-Wam!!)   However, away from Westminster Cathedral, there is really only one tradition which can be considered in a class of its own, and that is Ampleforth Abbey, here in Yorkshire. The plainsong sung by the monks is famous throughout the RC church, but when the boys voices are added, the effect is just perfection.   Their recent recording of the Faure Requiem, IMHO, is the best ever put on disc, and the boy soloist in the Pie Jesu has to be on a par with Roy Goodman in his days as a chorister at King's College Cambridge.   The CD is worth getting just for that solo, but the rest is absolutely flawless throughout.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   Cathedral --- quilisma@cox.net wrote: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/ > > Vespers for the Feast of St. Teresa of Avila, Virgin > and Doctor (sung in > Latin) from Brompton Oratory. > > What an EXQUISITE sound! THIS is what church music > is all ABOUT!!     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com