PipeChat Digest #4082 - Friday, October 31, 2003
 
Re: Gay Organist Fired Link
  by "Joseph Ireland" <jireland@beethoven.com>
Re: somewhat OFF-TOPIC: the Church and sin
  by "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net>
Re: Seating of the Mothers
  by "Steav W. Bates-Congdon" <steav@coffeeconnection.net>
RE: OFF-TOPIC: same-sex marriage rites
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: Gay Organist Fired Link
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Gay Organist Fired
  by "Steav W. Bates-Congdon" <steav@coffeeconnection.net>
OFF-TOPIC: spare me the details
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Ron Severin's post
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
ALL READ - NOW!!!
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
research help needed
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Gay Organist Fired
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
Re: Gay Organist Fired Link
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Gay Organist Fired Link From: "Joseph Ireland" <jireland@beethoven.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 06:23:18 -0500   Well said. Reading some of these postings about bad things happening to good people I cannot help but wander what provoked the announcement or the argument in the first place. This topic - one's orientation - is = intensely personal from my perspective and simply none of my business.   Joe       ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:17 AM Subject: RE: Gay Organist Fired Link     > I'm not saying that firing someone for their orientation is right, but very > few places have Right To Work laws, so the church could technically fire > someone for parting his hair on the wrong side....they don't HAVE to = even > give a reason or notice, unless contractually bound. > > The question I have, and it's gonna get the flamethrowers out, is = whether > this man announced to the church what his orientation is. If so, WHY? It's > illegal for employers of any kind to ask certain questions...I just = don't > see the need to volunteer information that has nothing to do with the = job. > > Just some random sleep-deprived thoughts... > > Jeff > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > > Alicia Zeilenga > > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 12:56 PM > > To: PipeChat > > Subject: Re: Gay Organist Fired Link > > > > > > I hope no one labels this as discrimination too quickly. I would most > > likely be dismissed if I were to move in with a guy without marrying = him > > first. In my diocese that is just policy, although whether it is > > enforced or not is another story. I haven't seen anything happen. > > > > Alicia Zeilenga > > Sub-Dean AGO@UI > > "Santa Caecilia, ora pro nobis" > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Oboe32@aol.com > > To: pipechat@pipechat.org > > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:50:13 EST > > Subject: Gay Organist Fired Link > > > > > Sorry gang, forgot to include the link... tis been a long day = teaching > > > and > > > playing! > > > > > > http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/902/902_ago.asp > > > > > > -Pete > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related = topics > > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >     ************************************************* Listen to the "World's Classical Radio Station" http://www.beethoven.com Great Music, Free Email, Exciting Bulletin Board!  
(back) Subject: Re: somewhat OFF-TOPIC: the Church and sin From: "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 05:35:29 -0600   Bud wrote:   "In recent years, elements within the Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches have engaged in a relentless attack upon the lesbian and gay community."   I certainly agree with you Bud. However, it seems REALITY is the "exception" the Roman Church makes for it's own clergy ... they're not = FIRED as a result of their "sins", just shuffled to other parrishes.... The Anglican's on the other hand are at least honest bigots....all in the name of Christ, of course!   Octaaf         --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.532 / Virus Database: 326 - Release Date: 10/27/2003    
(back) Subject: Re: Seating of the Mothers From: "Steav W. Bates-Congdon" <steav@coffeeconnection.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:31:06 -0500   Dear Glenda - Thank you soooo much... I have just spit and spilled coffee all over my monitor! What a wonderful laugh to start a day =3D) Steav (who plays "Mr. Lindquist" in the Osweo Opera Theater's production this weekend of "A Little Night Music" from whence doth come the aforementioned song...)   On Thursday, October 30, 2003, at 07:34 PM, Glenda wrote:   > "Send in the clowns", of course. What a silly question! > > Glenda Sutton > gksjd85@direcway.com > (who actually heard this played at a funeral - no lie) Steav W. Bates-Congdon "Outside of a dog, a book is probably man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." --- Groucho Marx    
(back) Subject: RE: OFF-TOPIC: same-sex marriage rites From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:51:53 +0800   Would you excuse any number of things on the grounds that the Roman and Eastern Orthodox Churches practised them at some time in their existence, Bud? I'm hanged if I would. What a nest of worms that would open!! Personally I am fed up with reading the confessions under the "Church organist is fired heading". What you are is your business but PLEASE spare us the details. Bob Elms.   ---- Original Message ---- From: quilisma@cox.net To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: RE: OFF-TOPIC: same-sex marriage rites Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:10:35 -0800   >Dr. John Boswell (in "Same-Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe") >documented that the rites continued to be used in both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches in central Europe until sometime around the 1930s.    
(back) Subject: Re: Gay Organist Fired Link From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 05:05:53 -0800   Um, if we're talking about the RC choir director, he and his partner went to Canada and had a civil marriage; when they returned, they applied to adopt a child. It was because of the latter, rather than the former, that some parishioners became incensed and demanded his removal.   Church authorities then presented him with a choice: leave your partner, take a vow of celibacy, and withdraw your application to adopt a child, or be fired. He refused; they fired him.   Totally outrageous!   Bud Clark San Diego CA USA   Joseph Ireland wrote: > Well said. Reading some of these postings about bad things happening to > good people I cannot help but wander what provoked the announcement or = the > argument in the first place. This topic - one's orientation - is = intensely > personal from my perspective and simply none of my business. > > Joe > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> > To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:17 AM > Subject: RE: Gay Organist Fired Link > > > >>I'm not saying that firing someone for their orientation is right, but > > very > >>few places have Right To Work laws, so the church could technically fire >>someone for parting his hair on the wrong side....they don't HAVE to = even >>give a reason or notice, unless contractually bound. >> >>The question I have, and it's gonna get the flamethrowers out, is = whether >>this man announced to the church what his orientation is. If so, WHY? > > It's > >>illegal for employers of any kind to ask certain questions...I just = don't >>see the need to volunteer information that has nothing to do with the = job. >> >>Just some random sleep-deprived thoughts... >> >>Jeff >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of >>>Alicia Zeilenga >>>Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 12:56 PM >>>To: PipeChat >>>Subject: Re: Gay Organist Fired Link >>> >>> >>>I hope no one labels this as discrimination too quickly. I would most >>>likely be dismissed if I were to move in with a guy without marrying = him >>>first. In my diocese that is just policy, although whether it is >>>enforced or not is another story. I haven't seen anything happen. >>> >>>Alicia Zeilenga >>>Sub-Dean AGO@UI >>>"Santa Caecilia, ora pro nobis" >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Oboe32@aol.com >>>To: pipechat@pipechat.org >>>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:50:13 EST >>>Subject: Gay Organist Fired Link >>> >>> >>>>Sorry gang, forgot to include the link... tis been a long day teaching >>>>and >>>>playing! >>>> >>>>http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/902/902_ago.asp >>>> >>>>-Pete >>>>"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >>>>PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >>>>HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >>>>List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >>>>Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >>>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >>>> >>> >>> >>>"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >>>PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >>>HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >>>List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >>>Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >>> >>> >> >>"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >>PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >>HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >>List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >>Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >> >> >> > > > > ************************************************* > Listen to the "World's Classical Radio Station" > http://www.beethoven.com > Great Music, Free Email, Exciting Bulletin Board! > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Gay Organist Fired From: "Steav W. Bates-Congdon" <steav@coffeeconnection.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:14:04 -0500   y'all- Having been removed from one church for merely being who I am and not=20 doing anything inconsistent with church polity, I currently prefer to=20 continue paddling my canoe across Lake Ontario to deliver Bob's coffee=20=   to him and share some of his Jaimeson's... I am not going to get caught=20=   up in this thread... Whoops! I already am =3D) And the churches think there is a shortage of organists now...   steav   On Thursday, October 30, 2003, at 10:07 PM, ScottFop@aol.com wrote:   > In a message dated 10/30/03 7:28:52 PM Central Standard Time,=20 > Tspiggle@aol.com writes: > > Subj: Re: Gay Organist Fired > Date: 10/30/03 7:28:52 PM Central Standard Time > From: Tspiggle@aol.com > Reply-to: pipechat@pipechat.org > To: pipechat@pipechat.org > Sent from the Internet > > Well Peter, I don't know what The Advocate is advocating, but any=20 > church staff member, whether homosexual or heterosexual, that engages=20=   > in sex outside of marriage should not be on the church staff. The=20 > Bible is very clear that adultry and fornication are wrong. > =A0 > I hear a lot about God's love, but nothing about God's judgement. We=20=   > will all have to stand at the Great White Throne one day and give an=20=   > account of our lives. Those that continued in sin and did not repent=20=   > will be cast into outer darkness. > =A0 > I am a single, heterosexual church organist. If I moved in with a=20 > woman I would expect to be fired. > > > > Um, does someone ELSE care to address THIS one?=A0 I am trying VERY=20 > DILIGENTLY to keep my mouth shut on this one, but this latest post is=20=   > making that VERY difficult indeed..................... > > (Shall I here quote the "judge ye not lest ye be judged" bit, or the=20=   > "Methinks he dost protest to much (directly to the "single,=20 > heterosexual organist") or do they speak for themselves?=A0=A0=A0=20 > <Harumph!.....grumble......> > > Scott F. Foppiano > Cantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat. > Steav W. Bates-Congdon Always be careful of the toes you step on today as they may be connected to the feet you have to kiss tomorrow. ---St. Xavier Onasis    
(back) Subject: OFF-TOPIC: spare me the details From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 05:22:18 -0800   Um, which details would you like to be spared, Bob?   My best friend in high school committed suicide in my senior year during the infamous "Johns Committee" witch-hunt in Florida.   I was expelled from Oberlin College in 1965 "on suspicion of being homosexual." No scandal, no proof.   I was beaten and robbed as I left a pub in Cleveland because I was "one of those."   I was repeatedly stopped, and my person and my vehicle searched in Cincinnati, because I was riding with another man (my roommate).   I have lost count of the number of times people have refused to rent a flat to me because I had a male roommate.   I have lost at least one church job because of my PERCEIVED orientation .... again, no scandal, no proof.   I cannot marry.   I cannot adopt children.   I cannot file a joint income tax return with my partner.   Despite complex and expensive legal documents I had drawn up, there is no assurance that my partner will be able to visit me in the hospital, have control over medical decisions in accordance with my wishes, have custody of my remains after my death, have charge of my funeral, or be able to inherit. Legally he is a "stranger to my estate."   Nope. I'm afraid you (and the rest of the world) are going to continue to hear me shout the details from the housetops unless and until I am granted full civil rights under the US Constitution, as non-gay citizens have as a matter of course.   You can discuss your family on these lists ... we all enjoyed hearing the account of your recent visit to them in England.   I cannot (supposedly ... I do anyway).   If you have a family tragedy, you can look to friends on these lists for support. I did recently, and received a spate of messages informing me that God was punishing me and my partner (who has end-stage AIDS) for being gay. The two most vociferous and evil e-mails were from two "devout" Missouri Synod Lutherans.   I'm not going away; WE'RE not going away.   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Ron Severin's post From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 05:39:13 -0800   I was too tired to deal with it last night; upon reading it this morning, I'm not sure I want to, but some general observations:   On the one side, you have Roman Catholics who were raised in the puritanical, anti-intellectual pre-Vatican-II Church. At one point, the late Cardinal Spellman placed ALL modern sex research on the Index of Forbidden Books ... Freud, Jung, Kinsey, etc.   Along with those you have Southern Baptists whose knowledge of biblical criticism begins and ends with the Scofield Reference Bible (!).   I don't quite know where the anti-gay Anglicans came from ... the Anglican Church had a long history of tolerance. I think they are probably the last expiring gasp of the wealthy, conservative, white, male power structure in that Church.   It's difficult to carry on a conversation/debate in civilised and rational terms if people refuse to read the scholarly criticism and research that has gone on in the last hundred years.   "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" has NEVER obtained in ANY church. Controversies such as these go right back to the First Council of Jerusalem, recorded in Acts. The Protestant Churches continue to split geometrically because of them, whether it be the role of women, the meaning of the Communion, Saturday or Sunday as the Sabbath, the authority of Scripture, or whatever.   Protestants AND Catholics preached with ABSOLUTE certainty in the 1950s that segregation was God's law, and used Scripture to buttress their arguments. Some still preach the subservient role of women with equal certainty, and cite proof-texts to support their position. A hundred years ago, it was slavery. Two hundred years ago, it was the divine right of kings.   And on and on and on. Church attendance in Europe is so dismal because the churches almost invariably took a reactionary position to ANY change, political or otherwise. The Vatican is STILL smarting over the loss of the Papal States in Italy. The Anglican Church wasn't immune, either ... it was said that the Church of England was "The Tory Party at prayer."   In the US, Mass attendance has plummeted as the RC Church has made itself more and more unreactive to the complexities of modern life. Most of the mainline protestant churches have run out of things to say.   By contrast, I'd be willing to BET that the Episcopal Church will gain at LEAST two members for every one they lose for having the COURAGE to confront the gay issue.   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: ALL READ - NOW!!! From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:34:09 -0600   Folks   We are getting way off topic here on the Gay Organist thread. This is not a forum to discuss Theological or Moral issues. And we are getting to those issues which have no place on this list.   As I am sure that many of us are aware, there is a large number of gay men and women who serve as organists / choir directors/ ministers of music - whatever title you want to use in many denominations. The original posting was to make us all aware of what is happening to some of these people. I have no problem with that but I do have a problem when we start getting into all these other discussions around that subject. If you want to carry on discussion I would suggest that you take it to private email.   I do also have to say that I have been happy that there has not been any real "flaming" happening with this topic. You have al been respectful of each other's opinions.   I hope that we can get back "On-Topic" for this list.   A Happy Halloween to all and remember, the IRC group will be gathering tonight beginning at 9:00 PM EASTERN time - for those that have never joined us the information on how to connect is available on the list web site at: http://www.pipechat.org/irc.html   David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: research help needed From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 05:45:47 -0800   As most of you know, I'm wheelchair-bound these days. I need someone who has access to a good library to go and photo-copy some things for me. If anyone would be willing, please e-mail me privately.   THANKS!   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: Gay Organist Fired From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:49:36 -0600   I am not familiar with the "Halloween Letter" of Cardinal Ratzinger, but I can tell you that the latest edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us that those with this orientation are called to chastity, like everyone else. (To keep this marginally on topic, I read it while during the sermon at the second Mass one Sunday when I was first a church organist.) This orientation is considered unnatural and a tendancy to evil, but it is not sinful anymore than it is sinful to be heterosexual or prone to stealing or lying or any other sin. Temptations and sins are different. Temptations test us, and we choose God over earthly pleasure by resisting.   In the case of Bill Stein, he and his partner were trying to adopt a child. If nothing else, this is a scandal that suggests a sexual relationship. Scandal is more of a cause for dismissal than private sin.   Oh,BTW, isn't this old news? Here in Illinois we organists have hashed and rehashed this case for months. Alicia Zeilenga "Santa Caecilia, ora pro nobis"     -----Original Message----- From: quilisma@cox.net To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:30:24 -0800 Subject: Re: Gay Organist Fired   > Um, not sure if the listowners want me to go into great detail, Karl > (grin), but I will say this: > > Until the infamous "Halloween Letter" of Cardinal Ratzinger a few years > ago, homosexual ORIENTATION was not considered to be sin. However, the > Roman Church has now pronounced it to be "intrinsically evil" WHETHER > OR > NOT one ACTS upon it. > > In the case of the Roman Catholic choir director who was fired, it was > demanded that he leave his partner. As with Canon Jeffrey John in the > Church of England, there was a PRESUMPTION of sexual activity. > > I must say that this part of your question jumped off the page at me: > > "does it deal with sexual acts which some folks would find > objectionable?" > > Um, how can I say this politely? I don't spend a whole lot of time > contemplating what non-gay people do in the privacy of their own homes. > I wish non-gay people would afford us the same courtesy. Do you get my > meaning? It's none of MY business what non-gay people do; it's none of > non-gay peoples' business what *I* do. > > Yet an inordinate amount of ink (and, sadly, blood) is being spilled > all > over the world over just that. > > I'm about ready to start a crusade against divorced Anglican bishops > (chuckle). > > Cheers, > > Bud > > Karl Moyer wrote: > > > Does the item deal with matters of sexual orientation, or does it > deal with > > sexual acts which some folks would find objectionable? > > > > On 10/29/03 9:49 PM, "Oboe32@aol.com" <Oboe32@aol.com> wrote: > > > > > >>Hey All, > >> > >> This issue of organists and musicians being fired due to > sexual > >>orientation is outrageous and effects us all in our musicianship and > workings. > >>I'd encourage all of you to read the article submitted in the > Advocate. As a > >>young organist, I hope that issues such as these are changing. This > is a > >>deffinite issue that is too often skirted or just hushed. Please take > some > >>time to > >>read up and express some of your thoughts (gently)! > >> > >>Best, > >> > >>Peter Isherwood > >>"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > >>PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related > topics > >>HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > >>List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > >>Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > >>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >> > >> > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related > topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >      
(back) Subject: Re: Gay Organist Fired Link From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:51:28 -0600   Outrageous? That is what the Church teaches! Must She be forced to subsidize what She considers sin?   Alicia Zeilenga "Santa Caecilia, ora pro nobis"     -----Original Message----- From: quilisma@cox.net To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 05:05:53 -0800 Subject: Re: Gay Organist Fired Link   > Um, if we're talking about the RC choir director, he and his partner > went to Canada and had a civil marriage; when they returned, they > applied to adopt a child. It was because of the latter, rather than the > former, that some parishioners became incensed and demanded his > removal. > > Church authorities then presented him with a choice: leave your > partner, > take a vow of celibacy, and withdraw your application to adopt a child, > or be fired. He refused; they fired him. > > Totally outrageous! > > Bud Clark > San Diego CA USA > > Joseph Ireland wrote: > > Well said. Reading some of these postings about bad things happening > to > > good people I cannot help but wander what provoked the announcement > or the > > argument in the first place. This topic - one's orientation - is > intensely > > personal from my perspective and simply none of my business. > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> > > To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:17 AM > > Subject: RE: Gay Organist Fired Link > > > > > > > >>I'm not saying that firing someone for their orientation is right, > but > > > > very > > > >>few places have Right To Work laws, so the church could technically > fire > >>someone for parting his hair on the wrong side....they don't HAVE to > even > >>give a reason or notice, unless contractually bound. > >> > >>The question I have, and it's gonna get the flamethrowers out, is > whether > >>this man announced to the church what his orientation is. If so, > WHY? > > > > It's > > > >>illegal for employers of any kind to ask certain questions...I just > don't > >>see the need to volunteer information that has nothing to do with the > job. > >> > >>Just some random sleep-deprived thoughts... > >> > >>Jeff > >> > >> > >>>-----Original Message----- > >>>From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf > Of > >>>Alicia Zeilenga > >>>Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 12:56 PM > >>>To: PipeChat > >>>Subject: Re: Gay Organist Fired Link > >>> > >>> > >>>I hope no one labels this as discrimination too quickly. I would > most > >>>likely be dismissed if I were to move in with a guy without marrying > him > >>>first. In my diocese that is just policy, although whether it is > >>>enforced or not is another story. I haven't seen anything happen. > >>> > >>>Alicia Zeilenga > >>>Sub-Dean AGO@UI > >>>"Santa Caecilia, ora pro nobis" > >>> > >>> > >>>-----Original Message----- > >>>From: Oboe32@aol.com > >>>To: pipechat@pipechat.org > >>>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:50:13 EST > >>>Subject: Gay Organist Fired Link > >>> > >>> > >>>>Sorry gang, forgot to include the link... tis been a long day > teaching > >>>>and > >>>>playing! > >>>> > >>>>http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/902/902_ago.asp > >>>> > >>>>-Pete > >>>>"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > >>>>PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related > topics > >>>>HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > >>>>List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > >>>>Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > >>>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>>"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > >>>PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related > topics > >>>HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > >>>List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > >>>Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > >>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >>> > >>> > >> > >>"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > >>PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related > topics > >>HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > >>List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > >>Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > >>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ************************************************* > > Listen to the "World's Classical Radio Station" > > http://www.beethoven.com > > Great Music, Free Email, Exciting Bulletin Board! > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related > topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >