PipeChat Digest #4083 - Friday, October 31, 2003
 
Re: Gay Organist Fired
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Ron Severin's post
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
Re: Home pipe organ
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
Methuen organ questions
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agunther@cantv.net>
Gay organists etc
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agunther@cantv.net>
RE: 4' Schalmei
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agunther@cantv.net>
RE: ALL READ - NOW!!!
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agunther@cantv.net>
Re:SPare me the details
  by "Dennis Goward" <dlgoward@cox.net>
Andres -- King James Bible
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Seating the Mothers
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net>
An important day in the History of the Church
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
RE: An important day in the History of the Church
  by "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca>
the fires
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
RE: Seating the Mothers
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
RE: Seating of the Mothers
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
Re: research help needed
  by "Jonathan Orwig" <giwro@adelphia.net>
Re: Seating of the Mothers
  by "John & Fran Meyers" <jack-fran1@cox.net>
Re: Home pipe organ
  by "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com>
Re: research help needed
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
RE: ALL READ - NOW!!!
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
Re: Seating of the Mothers
  by "Douglas A. Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com>
Re: OFF-TOPIC: spare me the details
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Gay Organist Fired From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 06:08:11 -0800       Alicia Zeilenga wrote:   > I am not familiar with the "Halloween Letter" of Cardinal Ratzinger, but =   > I can tell you that the latest edition of the Catechism of the Catholic > Church tells us that those with this orientation are called to chastity, =   > like everyone else. (To keep this marginally on topic, I read it while > during the sermon at the second Mass one Sunday when I was first a > church organist.) This orientation is considered unnatural and a > tendancy to evil, but it is not sinful anymore than it is sinful to be > heterosexual or prone to stealing or lying or any other sin.   No, Alicia, the Halloween Letter (and subsequent statements by the Vatican) have now declared that the ORIENTATION is "intrinsically evil" whether or NOT one acts upon them. That leaves us in a rather "Catch-22" situation: by our very NATURE, we are evil (sinful); no rememdy (including chastity OR repentance) is available to us.   > Temptations and sins are different. Temptations test us, and we choose > God over earthly pleasure by resisting. > > In the case of Bill Stein, he and his partner were trying to adopt a > child. If nothing else, this is a scandal that suggests a sexual > relationship. Scandal is more of a cause for dismissal than private = sin.   Um, not getting the connection between adopting a child and assuming a sexual relationship, here. Are you suggesting they wanted to adopt a child for the purpose of pederasty?   Perhaps you are too young to remember, but there was a time when the Church allowed heterosexual couples who weren't free to marry to make the "Brother-Sister Vow" and live together in chastity. That option wasn't offered to Stein and his partner, presumably because the Church doesn't think homosexuals are capable of chastity. > > Oh,BTW, isn't this old news? Here in Illinois we organists have hashed > and rehashed this case for months. > > Alicia Zeilenga > "Santa Caecilia, ora pro nobis" > >   I think the renewed discussion was fueled by the recent Advocate article.   OK, David, I'll shut up now (grin).   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: Ron Severin's post From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:06:32 -0600   Can we PLEASE stop discussing sex-related topics? Some of us are just a little young for this. (And I am not the youngest person on this list.) AND at this point it has very little to do with organs! Alicia Zeilenga "Santa Caecilia, ora pro nobis"      
(back) Subject: Re: Home pipe organ From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:27:33 -0800   >I am looking to purchase a pipe organ for my home. It needs to fit a >3' deep x 5" wide space. I have a cathedral ceiling, so height is >not an issue. My budget (for now at least) is $5,000; so brand-new >has obviously been ruled out. > >It must be at least somewhat playable, and have 2 manuals and pedal. >I would facilitate disassembly and moving, so the price is to move >it from your space. > >It has to be a local move (within 150 miles of Madison, WI) unless >it=92s an offer I can't refuse, or your part of the country is very >scenic. > >Mike Franch >Madison, WI   Hi We have been offered a 2 Manual(8? rank) Estey, the pretty standard variety. It is currently playing in its location in Westchester County, NY. We use these donations to raise funds for our high school pipe organ project, so the cost would be minimal, plus that of renting a truck. If interested I could find out more. The Hudson Valley is currently very scenic!! ;-) .   I am a little confused about your space dimensions.. 3' x 5 INCH? Chests are seldom less then 6 ft or more.   John  
(back) Subject: Methuen organ questions From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agunther@cantv.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:20:24 -0400   Andres Gunther agunther@cantv.net   Just finished the chapter about the also fascinating as accidented history of the organ in Methuen Hall. If Orpha Ochse is correct just today it's = 140 years ago that the organ was inaugurated at Boston Music Hall; if the website is correct it will be next Nov 02 (incidentally my birthday :)- won't get into hair-splitting for just three days.   *Questions: Any special activities planned? (couldn't find any on the website) What exactly is the Console Project - a new console or merely new console inwards?   Thanks in advance for any information.   Cheers Andres.    
(back) Subject: Gay organists etc From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agunther@cantv.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:20:32 -0400   Andres Gunther agunther@cantv.net   This topic is somewhat delicate, but it *has* to do with our work. When I was a student it was extensively discussed among us in bull sessions. = Final result: A church organist's work has nothing to do with his private life = and shouldn't be mixed up with it. Of course he (or she) shouldn't mix up and take his (or her) private life to the workplace either...   Two weeks ago we had our first child abusing priest scandal. You must know that Venezuela still is a ultraconservative country in many aspects, and that right now the church vs. government relationship is quite tense. This way the scandal made huge wawes. Last sunday our parish adressed in his sermon:   "I am receiving lots of phone calls stating that "this is the end of the = RC church", "the end of our faith" - among other nasty things. What a = nonsense! The Church is a christian community, and its end or continuation is not in the hands of a mis-stepping fellow; it's in the hands of the whole community, to say: In the hands of YOUR attitude and YOUR faith. And as = long as I see a full church like today; and you folks *participate* in the liturgy as you're doing, and *sing along with our organist* like you're singing, the RC is NOT at the end! And if, instead making silly phone = calls, these people put their efforts to convert their home -each home!- in a miniature Church, the faith WON'T come to an end". He further reminded us the words of Our Lord to St Peter: "The evil forces cannot be against my Church" [free quotation. I *must* acquire an English King James Bible].   So said. Andres =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.      
(back) Subject: RE: 4' Schalmei From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agunther@cantv.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:20:36 -0400   Andres Gunther agunther@cantv.net   Terry Hicks wrote on Pipechat:   > Here's another case of new-Baroque invention. If you study pedal specs > for Baroque organs, there usually is not a 4' reed, but more often a 2' > reed.   Right. And I am open minded to inventions - if Hope-Jones, Skinner, neobarroque or whatsoever it doesn't matter - they keep organ building = alive and in progress. Trouble starts when such inventions *substitute* other, more necessary stops and the organist then faces trouble to play literature in proper form.   > First of all, the pedal needs > to be in balance/relationship with the manual sounds. Often a 4' or 8' > flue stop works better than a reed...the flue sound is more subtle and > makes sense   That's the "Choralbass 4' " in many pedal specs is for.   Cheers Andres =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.      
(back) Subject: RE: ALL READ - NOW!!! From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agunther@cantv.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:31:13 -0400   Andres Gunther agunther@cantv.net.ve   Sorry, David and List: My mail about this topic was out BEFORE this one came in. No threads about what I wrote in it, please.   Happy halloween to you too. Must play a wedding tonight- perhaps disguised as Dracula LOL. Yours Andres.   ----- Original Message ----- From: Administrator <admin@pipechat.org> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 9:34 AM Subject: ALL READ - NOW!!!     > Folks > > We are getting way off topic here on the Gay Organist thread. This > is not a forum to discuss Theological or Moral issues. And we are > getting to those issues which have no place on this list. > > As I am sure that many of us are aware, there is a large number of > gay men and women who serve as organists / choir directors/ ministers > of music - whatever title you want to use in many denominations. The > original posting was to make us all aware of what is happening to > some of these people. I have no problem with that but I do have a > problem when we start getting into all these other discussions around > that subject. If you want to carry on discussion I would suggest > that you take it to private email. > > I do also have to say that I have been happy that there has not been > any real "flaming" happening with this topic. You have al been > respectful of each other's opinions. > > I hope that we can get back "On-Topic" for this list. > > A Happy Halloween to all and remember, the IRC group will be > gathering tonight beginning at 9:00 PM EASTERN time - for those that > have never joined us the information on how to connect is available > on the list web site at: http://www.pipechat.org/irc.html > > David > -- > **************************************** > David Scribner > Owner / Co-Administrator > PipeChat > > http://www.pipechat.org > mailto:admin@pipechat.org > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Re:SPare me the details From: "Dennis Goward" <dlgoward@cox.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:55:10 -0700   I was going to stay quiet in this, as it's a no-win situation and I personally don't feel like being flamed to death, but this demands an answer:   Bud sez: "If you have a family tragedy, you can look to friends on these lists for support. I did recently, and received a spate of messages informing me that God was punishing me and my partner (who has end-stage AIDS) for being gay. The two most vociferous and evil e-mails were from two "devout" Missouri Synod Lutherans."   Dennis sez: This is an outright lie. As the moderator of a list where Bud was = formerly a member (he left of his own choice) and one of those devout Missouri = Synod Lutherans, I can tell you that Bud, on many occassions asked for prayer = for his partner, and was never subjected to a spate of messages on list about God's judgement -- I know that because I would have stopped it.   Secondly, I never once sent Bud a "vociferous and evil e-mail". I did = send him a carefully worded and calmly written explanation of my personal = views, which are very non-condemnational. My error, though, was in agreeing with = a church's right to dismiss any employee for engaging in acts or practices that were against that church's beliefs and teachings. In his eyes, that made me a "homophobe" -- but he did season it with many colorful = adjectives that I just can't recall now. In another email, Bud literally cursed me, ordering me to die at once.   Bud, get the facts right --   Dennis      
(back) Subject: Andres -- King James Bible From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:10:20 -0800   Virtually ALL the Bible translations in ALL languages are now on the Net, including the Old AND New Vulgate in Latin (grin).   I use Bible Gateway at   http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible   It doesn't include the deutero-canonical books (Apocrypha) ... you have to go to   http://etext.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html   for that. The Apocrypha is at the BOTTOM of the page, AFTER the New Testament.   Since most of the newer translations were done by protestants, they don't include the Apocrypha.   Has anybody found the Jerusalem Bible online? I've looked ...   Cheers,   Bud              
(back) Subject: Seating the Mothers From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:24:14 -0600   As a pastor, I appreciate specific pieces that signal certain events. When it's time to seat the mothers, all I need do is give a discrete nod to the organist who begins the appropriate piece. Actually, I usually tell the organist to start that piece when he/she sees them ready at the back, since I'm not out there yet at that point. But the same holds for other parts of the service. It works quite well.   Dennis Steckley   Every gun that is made and every warship that is launched, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed--Dwight Eisenhower        
(back) Subject: An important day in the History of the Church From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:50:16 -0600   Greetings, all.   Depending upon what side of the "fence" you're on, you will either be = happy about, or offended by the events that happened to day:   On this day, October 31, 1517, Martin Luther posted his ninety-five theses on the door of the Wittenberg Palace Church, thus beginning the Reformation.   Of course, we know there were other reformers (John Hus, who was burned at the stake) prior to Luther, but it was the single most pivotal moment in the history of the church since the Resurrection.   All this focus on Halloween is not for me. Our family chooses NOT to participate in any form or fashion. We usually leave home during the Trick-or-Treat hours to go out to eat or some such. . Faithfully,   G.A. -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO <>< Schneider Pipe Organs, Inc. 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (877) 944-2454 TOLL-FREE (217) 944-2527 FAX arpschneider@starband.net Home Office EMAIL arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com URL ADDRESS    
(back) Subject: RE: An important day in the History of the Church From: "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:23:14 -0500   Resurrection? Ok, but what about the Ascension, Pentecost, the formation = of the Doctrine of the Trinity, the Creed and compilation of the Bible? The schism between East and West? There's an awful lot more that's pivotal = than Luthers' thesis I think in the history of the Church. I think it's importance to the history of the church will eventually be no greater than the very slow acceptance of pipe organs into churches 1500 years ago or so. I once thought the same about the Reformation but after reading some of = C.S. Lewis's works, I find I can no longer honestly hold the same opinion. = You'd have difficulty, btw, finding Lewis criticizing the Reformation in any of his writings that I'm aware of.   AjM   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Richard Schneider Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 11:50 AM To: PIPECHAT-L EMAIL Address Address Subject: An important day in the History of the Church   Greetings, all.   Depending upon what side of the "fence" you're on, you will either be = happy about, or offended by the events that happened to day:   On this day, October 31, 1517, Martin Luther posted his ninety-five theses on the door of the Wittenberg Palace Church, thus beginning the Reformation.   Of course, we know there were other reformers (John Hus, who was burned at the stake) prior to Luther, but it was the single most pivotal moment in the history of the church since the Resurrection.   All this focus on Halloween is not for me. Our family chooses NOT to participate in any form or fashion. We usually leave home during the Trick-or-Treat hours to go out to eat or some such. .   Faithfully,   G.A. -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO <>< Schneider Pipe Organs, Inc. 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (877) 944-2454 TOLL-FREE (217) 944-2527 FAX arpschneider@starband.net Home Office EMAIL arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com URL ADDRESS   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: the fires From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:44:52 -0800   Forecast for today: cold and rainy, with snow in the mountains down to 6000 ft ... that's FOREST FALLS' elevation (grin)!   The concern NOW is keeping the firefighters WARM as they mop it ... it'll be down to the 20s (F) in the mountains. They didn't bring winter clothing.   From 90 (F) to 20 (F) is quite a jump in 24 hours, but it happens in So Cal (grin).   Unless something unforeseen happens, this will be my last "report" (grin), THANK GOODNESS!   Cheers,   Bud          
(back) Subject: RE: Seating the Mothers From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:49:01 -0500   > all I need do is give a discrete nod to the organist who begins the appropriate piece. =20   And what happens to the piece that the organist is playing when you give = the nod? How long do give him or her to bring it to a reasonably = plausible premature truncation?   "Discrete" is exactly what it isn't. Please check your dictionary. = Discrete means existing in pieces that can be distinguished and counted = and that have a structure that should not be violated. The better the = music, the more such structure it will have. On the contrary, expecting = every essentially unpredictable event to be marked with an appropriate = piece through one-way communication presupposes stuff that can be turned = on and off as with a faucet: not discrete.   Yes, it can work, but it is only fair to expect patience, genuine = co-ordination (as opposed to command), and a sense of responsibility for = timing from *everyone* concerned, including the bridal party. In my = long experience these ingredients are hard to come by.            
(back) Subject: RE: Seating of the Mothers From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:04:32 -0500   >Someone contacted me asking for my advice on something that can be=20 played/sung at a Lutheran wedding for the seating of the mothers.   How about "Get me to the church on time" from My Fair Lady?      
(back) Subject: Re: research help needed From: "Jonathan Orwig" <giwro@adelphia.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:05:51 -0800   Whaddaya need, bud? I'm close to both the downtown Riverside branch and University of Riverside ----- Original Message ----- From: <quilisma@cox.net> To: <anglican-music@list.stsams.org>; "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 5:45 AM Subject: research help needed     > As most of you know, I'm wheelchair-bound these days. I need someone who > has access to a good library to go and photo-copy some things for me. If > anyone would be willing, please e-mail me privately. > > THANKS! > > Cheers, > > Bud > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >     --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.532 / Virus Database: 326 - Release Date: 10/27/03    
(back) Subject: Re: Seating of the Mothers From: "John & Fran Meyers" <jack-fran1@cox.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:08:56 -0800   Or ---- The Old grey mare she ain't what she used to be. ---- ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 10:04 AM Subject: RE: Seating of the Mothers     >Someone contacted me asking for my advice on something that can be played/sung at a Lutheran wedding for the seating of the mothers.   How about "Get me to the church on time" from My Fair Lady?     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org          
(back) Subject: Re: Home pipe organ From: "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:12:38 -0600   Thanks. I did mean 5', but could accomodate 6' wide also. White Plains, NY =   area is a bit far for me, as I'm considering a local drive.   Thanks again!   Mike   _________________________________________________________________ Add MSN 8 Internet Software to your current Internet access and enjoy patented spam control and more. Get two months FREE! http://join.msn.com/?page=3Ddept/byoa    
(back) Subject: Re: research help needed From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:19:50 -0800   Thanks, everybody .. I've got it handled.   Cheers,   Bud   Jonathan Orwig wrote: > Whaddaya need, bud? I'm close to both the downtown Riverside branch and > University of Riverside > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <quilisma@cox.net> > To: <anglican-music@list.stsams.org>; "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 5:45 AM > Subject: research help needed > > > >>As most of you know, I'm wheelchair-bound these days. I need someone who >>has access to a good library to go and photo-copy some things for me. If >>anyone would be willing, please e-mail me privately. >> >>THANKS! >> >>Cheers, >> >>Bud >> >> >>"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >>PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >>HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >>List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >>Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >> >> >> > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.532 / Virus Database: 326 - Release Date: 10/27/03 > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: RE: ALL READ - NOW!!! From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:14:47 -0500   > A Happy Halloween to all and remember   Well, *I* remember when Halloween was a special day for all the friends = of Dorothy, giving us an excuse to bring our finery a little further out = of the closet than usual. Let's just put it down that and I promise to = go back to normal tormorrow :-)   Cheers,   Paul    
(back) Subject: Re: Seating of the Mothers From: "Douglas A. Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:17:46 -0500     I would recommend "Improvisation on Pick a Little, Talk a Little" adapted from MUSIC MAN.   ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!  
(back) Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC: spare me the details From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:38:23 -0500   Dear Bud, Hopefully you will not go away. Hopefully also you will stop hollering"I'm different, notice me."Your contibutions to this list and = many others creates much admiration of you as a musician, authority on = scripture psalmody, liturgy and many other divers and esoteric religious issues. I don;t care what your sexual orientation is. I do care that you are treated equally with others. I know that breaking china, lack of tact and wearing leather or a thong during Mass will get you nowhere. Paul   ----- Original Message ----- From: <quilisma@cox.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 8:22 AM Subject: OFF-TOPIC: spare me the details     > Um, which details would you like to be spared, Bob? > > My best friend in high school committed suicide in my senior year during > the infamous "Johns Committee" witch-hunt in Florida. > > I was expelled from Oberlin College in 1965 "on suspicion of being > homosexual." No scandal, no proof. > > I was beaten and robbed as I left a pub in Cleveland because I was "one > of those." > > I was repeatedly stopped, and my person and my vehicle searched in > Cincinnati, because I was riding with another man (my roommate). > > I have lost count of the number of times people have refused to rent a > flat to me because I had a male roommate. > > I have lost at least one church job because of my PERCEIVED orientation > ... again, no scandal, no proof. > > I cannot marry. > > I cannot adopt children. > > I cannot file a joint income tax return with my partner. > > Despite complex and expensive legal documents I had drawn up, there is > no assurance that my partner will be able to visit me in the hospital, > have control over medical decisions in accordance with my wishes, have > custody of my remains after my death, have charge of my funeral, or be > able to inherit. Legally he is a "stranger to my estate." > > Nope. I'm afraid you (and the rest of the world) are going to continue > to hear me shout the details from the housetops unless and until I am > granted full civil rights under the US Constitution, as non-gay citizens > have as a matter of course. > > You can discuss your family on these lists ... we all enjoyed hearing > the account of your recent visit to them in England. > > I cannot (supposedly ... I do anyway). > > If you have a family tragedy, you can look to friends on these lists for > support. I did recently, and received a spate of messages informing me > that God was punishing me and my partner (who has end-stage AIDS) for > being gay. The two most vociferous and evil e-mails were from two > "devout" Missouri Synod Lutherans. > > I'm not going away; WE'RE not going away. > > Cheers, > > Bud > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >